The box that would make me embrace IPTV

[HDRoberts]

I promised in the pub to post my ideal IPTV solution here. I've been waffling over cancelling my internet versus cancelling TV to save money. On the surface, I love the idea of IPTV combined with OTA. But in practice, I find major issues.

• IPTV apps seem to take forever to load, and then I have to wait for buffering, unlike live TV or my DVR where programs come up almost instantly
• Picture Quality is dependant on internet speed, meaning big bucks need to have an ultra-fast connection. And even then, if often sucks.
• Finding the programming I want seems to take a long time, whereas my DVR just stores what I want.
• OTA TV cannot easily be incorporated or recorded.
• Amazon and other services take forever to add shows. They should be available to watch at the same time they air on broadcast if I buy them. I don't want to wait 'till tomorrow to see that shocking Doctor Who.

But these seem to be easy technical solutions to these problems, and I'd love to see Roku, Amazon, Google, or even Tivo create a product that would fix these issues.

• 2-3 OTA tuners
• OTA DVR functionality
• 3rd party guide info for name based recording
• The ability to download subscribed shows in advance rather than streaming. This would enable slower internet connections to work.
• A subscription service that allowed access to new shows when they air on broadcast. Preferably included would be pre downloading new shows and unlocking at the specified time.
• A continuous queue of older shows where it would download a specified number, and replenish them as you went through watching and deleting them.
• A simplified interface (perhaps programmed from a PC or tablet) that made selecting what I want easier. Something as simple as pressing 'DVR' to access both recorded OTA and all internet downloaded shows). I would want this feature to work for netflix, amazon prime, and other traditionally streaming services.

?Don't think we'll ever see such a box (though if something close is out there, let me know). But perhaps someone with the engineering knowhow, financial resources, and business connections can make this happen.

 

[harshness]

Finding the programming I want seems to take a long time, whereas my DVR just stores what I want.

This is the argument that typically shuts down FTA satellite as well with its "pleasant surprise" programming schedule.

But these seem to be easy technical solutions to these problems, and I'd love to see Roku, Amazon, Google, or even Tivo create a product that would fix these issues.

Amazon surely isn't motivated to go after a product that brings free versions of stuff that they charge for.

For their part, I suspect that TiVo is happily accepting viggerish (or at least a promise that their boxes will continue to work) not to complete with cable as their support for OTA has thinned significantly over the years.

OTA DVR functionality

Seems like Channel Master (via Echostar) is the only company left trying to support this market. When OTA was harder to capture, there were many options.

3rd party guide info for name based recording

This is a problem as the third party often must become the first party for something like this to grow legs.

The ability to download subscribed shows in advance rather than streaming. This would enable slower internet connections to work.

It would also tread the fine line between watching something and storing a copy of it. Program owners have been going after TWC and Cox about doing this on the subscriber's behalf for some time.

A subscription service that allowed access to new shows when they air on broadcast. Preferably included would be pre downloading new shows and unlocking at the specified time.

How does your model that sees that the local channel gets their cut work? This is the AutoHop argument all over again.

A simplified interface (perhaps programmed from a PC or tablet) that made selecting what I want easier. Something as simple as pressing 'DVR' to access both recorded OTA and all internet downloaded shows). I would want this feature to work for netflix, amazon prime, and other traditionally streaming services.

Some of the older computer-based PVR software did this. The problem was that they were computer-based with all the associated clumsiness of using a general purpose computer.

No one should fault you for dreaming, but in order for the product to make it, it has to answer to more than just the potential subscribers.

 

[jayn_j]

Well, my TIVO Premiere does support much of what you are asking for. It has OTA tuners, named based recording, season passes, a great guide with 10 day preview and wish lists.

It also integrates ip based content and will make suggestions. It also has the option to auto download content it thinks you might like (although that was the first thing I turned off). It is a good enough solution that I didn't really go through major withdrawals when I cut the cable. I really hope that they keep an OTA model in their next generation.

The big one it doesn't have is the ability to save ip content. I would expect there may be copyright issues there. It also doesn't support Amazon streaming, which causes me to keep a Roku active for that and other content. I would love to be able to pay for HD feeds of USA and BBC-America, but that doesn't seem possible any time soon, so we muddle through with watching year old versions of Burn Notice, Covert Affairs and the like.

Favorite lists on netflix and Amazon help a lot with TV series, and also to do a browsing session and save stuff for later viewing. Not perfect, but overall it seems to work for us.

 

[mike123abc]

Right now I have 3 boxes:

1. TiVo for OTA and Amazon VOD (not prime, but shows you own will download to the box)
2. RoKu for Amazon Prime and lots of other streaming services
3. AppleTV for iTunes, airplay and HBO GO

 

[jayn_j]

Does Apple TV allow you to subscribe to HBO GO without a cable subscription?

 

[HDRoberts]

Well, my TIVO Premiere does support much of what you are asking for. It has OTA tuners, named based recording, season passes, a great guide with 10 day preview and wish lists.

It also integrates ip based content and will make suggestions. It also has the option to auto download content it thinks you might like (although that was the first thing I turned off). It is a good enough solution that I didn't really go through major withdrawals when I cut the cable. I really hope that they keep an OTA model in their next generation.

The big one it doesn't have is the ability to save ip content. I would expect there may be copyright issues there. It also doesn't support Amazon streaming, which causes me to keep a Roku active for that and other content. I would love to be able to pay for HD feeds of USA and BBC-America, but that doesn't seem possible any time soon, so we muddle through with watching year old versions of Burn Notice, Covert Affairs and the like.

Favorite lists on netflix and Amazon help a lot with TV series, and also to do a browsing session and save stuff for later viewing. Not perfect, but overall it seems to work for us.

Tivo is great for OTA. If I could just add Doctor Who and The Daily Show as it is airing on cable, that is all I need. Thing is, it falls flat on the IPTV front.

While saving may create copyright concerns, the recordings could easily be encrypted. I also suspect that the service would work directly with content providers to work out the kinks. OTA programming could be excluded, so that local channels needn't worry about losing viewers.

 

[king3pj]

Does Apple TV allow you to subscribe to HBO GO without a cable subscription?

HBO doesn't offer a stand alone HBO Go subscription so that isn't available on any box. They are either afraid of ruining their relationship with the TV providers or it is specifically in the contracts with those providers that they don't do this. I'm sure they would be happy to offer HBO Go by itself if not for one of those two reasons.

I will admit that I use my parents Dish login for HBO Go access at my house instead of paying Dish for it myself. I used to but at $18 the cost is pretty excessive. We split the cost. They watch HBO Movies on their hopper. I watch my HBO original series on my Apple TV. I wonder how many people are doing similar things since HBO Go started becoming available on more devices.

 

[jayn_j]

Tivo is great for OTA. If I could just add Doctor Who and The Daily Show as it is airing on cable, that is all I need. Thing is, it falls flat on the IPTV front.

While saving may create copyright concerns, the recordings could easily be encrypted. I also suspect that the service would work directly with content providers to work out the kinks. OTA programming could be excluded, so that local channels needn't worry about losing viewers.

But that is not the fault of the devices. It is the close relationship between the content providers and the cable/sat companies that have prevented IP feeds of cable content.

So, we initially had a thin year (we cut cable in April 2012), but stuff slowly becomes available. For example the first half of season 7 of Dr Who was recently made available to Amazon streaming. Last year's Burn Notice just went online, and we finished last year's Covert Affairs and Suits. Then there is the exclusive download content like Orange is the New Black and House of Cards, both excellent.

Some material can be purchased on a season pass or per episode basis from Amazon. In general, I am not having a lot of problems finding stuff to watch, and I think it is of a higher quality than when I was surfing cable.

 

[Ronnie-]

HD, what internet speed do you have that streaming gives you a less than desirable experience?

 

[HDRoberts]

HD, what internet speed do you have that streaming gives you a less than desirable experience?

15/1. At least, that's what TWC claims. But I choose a show to watch in netflix, I wait 30s-1m for it to start, and often see PQ drops and/or rebuffering. I've now canceled netflix again.

But the problem starts even before. I wait a few minutes for my samsung "smart" blu-ray to fire up, then another minute for the netflix app to load. Then navigating the low as heck menus to get what I want. It's a 5+ minute process just to get one show going. My old Insignia blu-ray was much the same. Those are the only IPTV devices I've owned. Maybe other boxes are faster, but I don't want to waste money on experiments that may work out no better.

 

[HDRoberts]

But that is not the fault of the devices. It is the close relationship between the content providers and the cable/sat companies that have prevented IP feeds of cable content.

So, we initially had a thin year (we cut cable in April 2012), but stuff slowly becomes available. For example the first half of season 7 of Dr Who was recently made available to Amazon streaming. Last year's Burn Notice just went online, and we finished last year's Covert Affairs and Suits. Then there is the exclusive download content like Orange is the New Black and House of Cards, both excellent.

Some material can be purchased on a season pass or per episode basis from Amazon. In general, I am not having a lot of problems finding stuff to watch, and I think it is of a higher quality than when I was surfing cable.

I know Amazon has a lot of stuff. But I have 2 issues. First, it is streaming. I want to download it, so I can watch without worrying about PQ or buffering. Second, they take time to post episodes. I want to watch with everyone to join in the discussion. Plus, I host watch parties somewhat regularly.

 

[Ronnie-]

I would say that your issue lies with the player rather than the service or the internet speed, as 15 should be more than enough to give you a buffer free HD feed from netflix.

Before I upgraded to my present uverse internet, I had a 7/1 cable service, and we could do simultaneous feeds in my home with nothing other than the initial buffer period.

Of course that is using a roku, which is excellent with netflx (and streaming in general), and our panny plasma in the living room.

With the roku, there is no device start up time unless you unplug it. You only have to wait for the individual app to load, which is much faster than what you have experienced.

 

[HDRoberts]

I would say that your issue lies with the player rather than the service or the internet speed, as 15 should be more than enough to give you a buffer free HD feed from netflix.

Before I upgraded to my present uverse internet, I had a 7/1 cable service, and we could do simultaneous feeds in my home with nothing other than the initial buffer period.

Of course that is using a roku, which is excellent with netflx (and streaming in general), and our panny plasma in the living room.

With the roku, there is no device start up time unless you unplug it. You only have to wait for the individual app to load, which is much faster than what you have experienced.

I do keep most of my peripherals off. I use one of those smart power strips that powers down everything but the DVR when the tv is off.

Still, I'm looking for something that downloads rather than streams so I'm not stuck with a $60/month internet bill like I am now.

 

[jayn_j]

I do keep most of my peripherals off. I use one of those smart power strips that powers down everything but the DVR when the tv is off.

Still, I'm looking for something that downloads rather than streams so I'm not stuck with a $60/month internet bill like I am now.

I would say you are putting on too many requirements, given the current state.

First, that BluRay player or Roku start up nearly instantly if they are left powered on. I realize you are concerned about wasted electricity, but we are talking pennies a month here.

Second, check this link on Amazon Instant video: http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...d_t=101&pf_rd_p=1574764742&pf_rd_i=2858778011

For the ultimate convenience, you can download any rented or purchased Amazon Instant Video title to your tablet to watch even when you are without a WiFi connection, like in a car or on a plane.

That gets you at least some of what you want, although the implication is that you cannot store long term on your home device. You could schedule a download though to start later. Not sure on TIVO as I would rather buy the DVD.

 

[harshness]

I want to watch with everyone to join in the discussion. Plus, I host watch parties somewhat regularly.

This is clearly a show-stopper.

"Eventually" and being invested in a series with friends and family aren't going to get it.

There would be a whole lot involved in establishing and maintaining a conditional access system to insure that viewers could only view what they were entitled to and when.

In view of the fact that a few of the premium movie channels release VOD versions of a program before it premieres, I'm guessing that they haven't figured it out.

 

[Blindowl1234]

15/1. At least, that's what TWC claims. But I choose a show to watch in netflix, I wait 30s-1m for it to start, and often see PQ drops and/or rebuffering. I've now canceled netflix again.

But the problem starts even before. I wait a few minutes for my samsung "smart" blu-ray to fire up, then another minute for the netflix app to load. Then navigating the low as heck menus to get what I want. It's a 5+ minute process just to get one show going. My old Insignia blu-ray was much the same. Those are the only IPTV devices I've owned. Maybe other boxes are faster, but I don't want to waste money on experiments that may work out no better.

I've got the same service in Southwest Ohio from TWC. I do see a little rebuffering but not that bad. It takes about 15 seconds for a program to start for me. Until content providers quit playing around we'll suffer as we do. I'd love to see a receiver with OTA added...hey a Roku with OTA and ability to hook my external 2tb drive would make me happy.

 

[jayn_j]

I'd love to see a receiver with OTA added...hey a Roku with OTA and ability to hook my external 2tb drive would make me happy.

Again, that is a TIVO. (certain models only)

 

[HDRoberts]

I would say you are putting on too many requirements, given the current state.

First, that BluRay player or Roku start up nearly instantly if they are left powered on. I realize you are concerned about wasted electricity, but we are talking pennies a month here.

Second, check this link on Amazon Instant video: http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.ht...d_t=101&pf_rd_p=1574764742&pf_rd_i=2858778011


That gets you at least some of what you want, although the implication is that you cannot store long term on your home device. You could schedule a download though to start later. Not sure on TIVO as I would rather buy the DVD.

Actually, my bill dropped like $8 a month. Although much was probably due the the AV receiver. Keeping those capacitors charged in standby sucked power.

I want one where I can download on a device connected to my TV, not an ipad. Apparently I'm a weirdo, but I have no desire to watch TV on a tablet.

And the current state is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm suggesting improvements.

 

[HDRoberts]

This is clearly a show-stopper.

"Eventually" and being invested in a series with friends and family aren't going to get it.

There would be a whole lot involved in establishing and maintaining a conditional access system to insure that viewers could only view what they were entitled to and when.

In view of the fact that a few of the premium movie channels release VOD versions of a program before it premieres, I'm guessing that they haven't figured it out.

?It is a pretty big deal for a show or two. I don't think the technical limitations are much, just they have no incentive to try.

 

[jayn_j]

Well, I am out of suggestions. In a way it sounds like you may be looking for justifications to keep cable and that is a valid position.

The current state of the art and politics will not allow what you want. Cable/sat companies will fight to keep their exclusive content off of IP based carriers. Content providers will fight to the death to protect against even the slightest opening for copying content. Those two are not going to change.

BTW, I was speaking directly about ROKU and the Panasonic BR player. The Panny draws in the microamp range when in its 'off' state. Just enough power to keep the ram alive.