The upcoming DP44+ switch questions.. (1 Viewer)

slimoli

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Dec 12, 2003
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I need to split a single line from my dish to the 2 RF inputs in the 921. Few questions :

Do I also need a special "splitter" when the DP44+ becomes available in order to split the signal to the 2 921 tuners? What kind of "splitter" is this and is it going to be available together with the DP44+?

Can I use the DP44+ with my current LNBs, which are not DISHPRO or I need to update my install to DISHPRO?

Can I combine the signal from the satellites with my roof antenna as I do today if I change the switch to the new DP44+? I'm using diplexers to combine OTA and satellite with my current Dish 6000 and wonder if with the new DP44+ I can still do it and also split the satellite signal in two satellite inputs and one OTA with the 921.

I have no way to run a double cable to the 921 without major wall breaking and a potential divorce. Please help me stay married.

Many Thanks

Sergio
 

SimpleSimon

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Feb 29, 2004
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We need to make sure the correct terminology is being used, or confusion will reign, and you'll end up shooting yourself - or worse yet, me. :)

There are switches, splitters, combiners, and diplexers. On a receiver, there are RF inputs & outputs and there are Satellite inputs.

The 921 has one RF input (for OTA signals), and 2 satellite inputs.

You can NOT, no way, no how, without any doubt, under any circumstances, "split" a Dish satellite feed. What you are calling a splitter is a "switch". There are major differences between the two types of devices. A splitter is passive. A switch is active - that is, it has 'smarts' and changes the signal depending on commands from the receiver. Other than knowing that there's a difference, and they're not interchangable, we need go no deeper.

DP44, SW21, SW34, etc. are all switches. You can not put a splitter in a satellite feed.

It sounds like you are combining OTA & satellite on a single cable. No problem. The combiner (diplexer) MUST be the closest 'box' to the receiver. This will work with DishPro or Legacy LNBFs and switches.

The good news is, you do NOT need a DP44. It sounds like you've got a legacy Dish500 with 2 feeds. Cool. You can even add a third satellite by using a SW21 in each feed, but let's leave that for later, because ...

Now the bad news.

BOTH satellite inputs on the 921 MUST be used, and they MUST have access to exactly the same satellites on both, using exactly the same switch setup.

You MUST have TWO separate satellite feed cables to the 921. The only way around this is with a single satellite (110 OR 119, but NOT both) and a "stacker". They are not from Dish, and they ain't cheap, and we're not even going to consider it. Heck, it might not even work with a 921 for some obscure reason noone has ever seen.

Without knowing more about your current setup, I don't want to spend the time going through all the possible variations (Dish 300, SuperDish, Twin 500, etc.) until later.

So, if you're not gonna run dual RG-6, or another single, forget about the whole 921 thing. Seriously.

If we can get over that hurdle, tell me as much about your current LNBF hardware as possible, what satellites you want to use, and how many receivers you're gonna use (keeping the 6000?) and I'll tell you what you need to buy. :)
 

n0qcu

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Simon,
Hate to tell you this..your wrong. The DishProPlus 44 switch will be able to use a special 'spliter' (what dish will actually call this part I don't know) that WILL allow you to use a single cable to feed a dual tuner receiver.
Slimoli,
Yes you will need to change all your LNB to dishpro, I don't know if diplexors can be used with dishpro.
 

SimpleSimon

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n0qcu said:
Simon,
Hate to tell you this..your wrong. The DishProPlus 44 switch will be able to use a special 'spliter' (what dish will actually call this part I don't know) that WILL allow you to use a single cable to feed a dual tuner receiver.
Slimoli,
Yes you will need to change all your LNB to dishpro, I don't know if diplexors can be used with dishpro.
I forgot that he was specifically asking about the DP44+, and not just about a 921 install. Sorry.

OK - so no argument - assuming we ever see a DP44+ and the 'special splitter'.

It's Dish after all, so I'm not holding my breath.

Has the DP44+ itself starting shipping yet?
 

slimoli

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Dec 12, 2003
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Simon

Many thanks for the lecturing. Kevin, thanks for the answer.

I already have 4 receivers in 4 different rooms . I have two dishes , one pointed to 110/119 and the other to the 61.5. My current switch is the SW64. When and if I get the 921 I will replace one of my 6000 receivers. I know I can "cascade" switches and have more than 4 lines from the dishes to my receivers but my problem is the fact that my house is new and all the cabling was built in the walls. It's gonna be almost impossible to snake in another cable without breaking walls.

I mentioned the DP44+ because in the last tech chat it was said it should ship end of this month. Nobody mentioned any kind of "splitter" but my understanding is that the DP44+ will allow one single run of cable to feed the 2 satellite inputs on the 921 (or the 721).

Thanks again .

Sergio
 

David_Levin

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Hopefully this isn't a problem, but to support the stacking (dual tuner over 1 cable), your RG6 needs to be good to 2200MHz (I believe most is).
 

SimpleSimon

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David_Levin said:
Hopefully this isn't a problem, but to support the stacking (dual tuner over 1 cable), your RG6 needs to be good to 2200MHz (I believe most is).
Depends on how old it is. Also, cable that's not marked for 2200MHz might work - but it might not. Cable length can become a real issue at these frequencies, too. If I've done the numbers correctly, loss is 3 times as much at 2200MHz than at 1100MHz. Maybe the DP44+ will have amplification to compensate - I just don't know yet.
 

red hazard

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What about a DP FSS LNBF for the 4th Satellite(?)

Everyone keeps talking about the DP44 & DP44+. However, maybe I have not been paying enough attention to detail but I have yet to see a DishPro FSS Single LNBF that one could use in conjuction with a SuperDish for simultaneously receiving both the FSS 105 & 121 along with the Dish 500 BSS 110/119. Are they available and will they fit a standard E* D-tube arm?

Thanks
 

RBBrittain

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Apr 7, 2004
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SimpleSimon said:
Nope. DishPro means the LNB down-converts even and odd TP polarities to different frequencies (i.e., "stacking"), so that both polarities are available at the same time; older "legacy" equipment sends only one polarity at a time. Newer Dish500 and Dish300 LNBs are DishPro, but can only receive BSS/DBS frequencies (just like legacy LNBs); only the SuperDish LNB (which is only made for DishPro) can receive FSS/Ku-band frequencies. DishPro Plus (used with the DPP44 and the 322, 522 and 921--NOT the 721, even though it's also multi-tuner) stacks tuner inputs instead of TP polarities.

Anyway, the first of your PDFs answers Red Hazard's question: The FSS/Ku-band feedhorn MUST be at the EXACT focal point of the SuperDish in order to receive the satellite; therefore, the SuperDish can ONLY receive ONE of the two FSS satellites (105 or 121)--not both. (BSS/DBS is more powerful, so its LNBs can be offset from the focal point--Dish500 does that too.) Also, since LNB spacing is different for 105/110/119 vs. 110/119/121, a different SuperDish LNB assembly is required for each. You *could* use a separate Dish500 for 110/119, but that's just a waste of dishes; you'd then have the big SuperDish for JUST 105 or 121. (The SuperDish's size is dictated by the needs of FSS/Ku-band reception, NOT by the number of satellites.)

If you want to receive both 105 and 121 satellites on one dish, you might want to investigate a "toroidal" dish, available at www.multilnbdish.com. (I just heard about them myself, so I can't vouch for them personally.) These reportedly can receive any combination of satellites within a 40-degree range (such as 110/119/148, but not 61.5/110/119); the combination of two reflectors produces a "focal line" instead of a point, so every LNB is "on target". However, because the focused beam is a "mirror image" of a normal beam, you MUST use *their* LNBs, meaning it's unclear if 105/121 can use the same dish as 110/119 due to LNB spacing; you can't use a SuperDish LNB to get around that. Also, unless the toroidal LNBs are DishPro-compatible (unlikely since it uses the same LNBs for D* at 101/119), there could be problems with 105/121 in general; since all SuperDish LNBs are DishPro, I doubt any E* system would support 105/121 legacy inputs (except possibly the 6000, and then only via DishPro adapter or DPP44).
 

RBBrittain

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Apr 7, 2004
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n0qcu said:
Simon,
Hate to tell you this..your wrong. The DishProPlus 44 switch will be able to use a special 'spliter' (what dish will actually call this part I don't know) that WILL allow you to use a single cable to feed a dual tuner receiver.
Slimoli,
Yes you will need to change all your LNB to dishpro, I don't know if diplexors can be used with dishpro.
E* calls this part a "separator"; it will split a single DishPro Plus signal (at present, only a DPP44 output) into two tuner inputs for the 322, 522, and 921--but NOT the 721 (which is multi-tuner but NOT DishPro Plus-compatible). Gosh, yet another "it's not a 'splitter', it's a 'thingamabob'" E* term.

The DPP44 has three advantages over existing DishPro switches:
1. Four satellite inputs with DP34-like cascading (only legacy switches could handle four satellites before, and then only with severe limits on cascading).
2. Direct support of legacy receivers (no DishPro adapter required).
3. DishPro Plus (one output supports both tuners of 322/522/921 via "separator" at receiver end).
 

SimpleSimon

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RBBrittain said:
Nope. DishPro means the LNB down-converts even and odd TP polarities to different frequencies (i.e., "stacking"), so that both polarities are available at the same time; older "legacy" equipment sends only one polarity at a time. Newer Dish500 and Dish300 LNBs are DishPro, but can only receive BSS/DBS frequencies (just like legacy LNBs); only the SuperDish LNB (which is only made for DishPro) can receive FSS/Ku-band frequencies. DishPro Plus (used with the DPP44 and the 322, 522 and 921--NOT the 721, even though it's also multi-tuner) stacks tuner inputs instead of TP polarities.
I thought that's what I said - SuperDish LNBs are DishPro not Legacy?

As for the other - right - a toroid would be needed to grab both 105 and 121 using the same dish. Of course, there's other dishes that would work - if you lashed a SuperDish FSS LNB to it. But then there's the question of whether a DP44 switch can handle 2 FSS LNBs. And the next question becomes whether a given receiver would handle 105 & 121 at the same time.

It's an interesting discussion, but I guess I've lost track of what the original objective is.
 

slimoli

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Dec 12, 2003
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One question that remains to be answered is if it's possible to combine the signal of an OTA antenna and the 2 satellite feed in one single cable (I use a diplexer today). I'm assuming that with the DP44+ I can have one single cable from the switch to my 921 with both OTA and satellite signals combined through a diplexer.. At the 921 , I can use one diplexer to separate the OTA and satellite signal again and have one "separator" to provide the 2 satellite feed to the satellite inputs.

Is this correct?
 

SimpleSimon

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slimoli said:
One question that remains to be answered is if it's possible to combine the signal of an OTA antenna and the 2 satellite feed in one single cable (I use a diplexer today). I'm assuming that with the DP44+ I can have one single cable from the switch to my 921 with both OTA and satellite signals combined through a diplexer.. At the 921 , I can use one diplexer to separate the OTA and satellite signal again and have one "separator" to provide the 2 satellite feed to the satellite inputs.

Is this correct?
I answered earlier that as best as we can know right now, a diplexer should work - as long as it's 'closer' to the 921 than the DP switch. At the receiver end, the diplexer will probably need to be 'farther' from the 921 than the 'separator'. In other words, be symmetric.

I don't anticiapte any problems with this simply because OTA is in a different frequency band than the DishPro stuff.

Of course, with E* equipment, who knows. :confused:
 

Scott Greczkowski

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I will be going to the Team Summit in Dallas this week and will try to get all your Dish Pro Plus 44 switch questions answered for you.

Tune in late Thursday, or Friday for updates. :)
 

jmillecpa

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See if you can find out the real poop on the production numbers for the 921. A lot of us are waiting on them, but considering jumping ship to Direct since there appear to be more HD TIVO units available. I am waiting on the dish 921 but don't want to start football season without an HD DVR.
 

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