Upcoming install. What should I watch out for?

[MI_Voomer]

I have an install scheduled for June 5th. I received the 942 in the mail already. I am not as knowledgeable as most of you when it comes to the technical ins and outs of satellite service. Right now I have my old Voom dish and an antenna for locals mounted on the side of my house. Each with a separate cable running all the way to the TV. I have ordered every single channel that Dish offers except for the adult channels. What should I expect as far as dishes, cable runs, splitters, switches, and so on for a top notch professional install? Is there anything that I should request or demand from the installer? I want it done right the first time and I don't want them to try taking advantage of me because of my limited knowledge. The 942 will go in the living room and another box is going in my basement. I know there are allot of installers out there that are very good at what they do but on the other hand, from other posts in this forum, there are a fair share that seem to be less than trustworthy. I live in Michigan and was told by Dish that the install company will be "AEI."

 

[korsjs]

one thing i do for all my service people is make sure you have plenty of gatorade/water for them. do what ever you can to make them understand that they do have a tough job and you appreciate their hard work. i have a plumber coming tomorrow doing a major job and i have plenty of drinks and food for him.

 

[SatinKzo]

That can be said for anyone coming to your house doing work IMO. The more comfortable they are, the better job they do in my experience. An installer who is tired, thirsty etc might rush a bit to get out of there. I remember when I got my D500 installed it was January and I believe 5 above before windchill. I had hot water ready on the stove (for cocoa) and a pot of coffee brewed for the poor guy. He arrive, had a cup of cocoa, installed the dish on the roof, came in, warmed up with some more cocoa, we chatted while he ran to coax around the house, I helped him when necessary and then when he left, we filled up his thermos with some fresh coffee.. He did a stellar job on the install too, took time to run wires to wall jacks (even installed a new one in living room) instead of just drilling through floor.

Anyways, to answer your question on what to watch for. I would make sure the system gets grounded properly, that he pickups up coax scraps after cutting and striping (nothing like stepping on the conductor wire piece later that day). Check the guys demeanor, ask a few questions, don't be a jerk and annoying, but basic stuff. My general idea is to see what kind of attitude the guy has about the job, is he happy etc.
Of course, never let anyone in any room in the house if you are not there, don't give anyone any temptation to steal something. I AM NOT saying he will, but if you are around, then you won't have to worry about it. Plus any installer should not be nervous with you around, if they are, that is more reason to be there.

 

[MI_Voomer]

Thax for the replys. I am however aware of how to handle house guests. What I really need to know is what kind of equipment i should get. Should I run separate lines? Should I accept a diplexer? Are separate runs possible with the "Voom" dish? Switches? I want the best picture quality possible. As far as grounding goes where does this happen? How should I confirm a good grounding?

 

[SatinKzo]

I would say a the switch depends on what sats you want to hit. DPP44 would probably be ideal if you can get it in the install, that will eliminate double runs to the 942 and any other dual tuner down the road (may not need a dual tuner in the living room now... but later on you might want that and the DPP44 will do that over 1 coax instead of 2).

Not sure what you are gonna do with a diplexer if you are only gonna have Dish stuff.

Grounding can occur in my area (code) on eithe the cold water ground or the natural gas line ground. Preferably cold water ground. You house should already be grounded somewhere, they will probably try to tie into that and if not possible, install a new cold water clamp to ground properly. Although it has been mentioned that the switches themselves act as ground so a new grounding block may not be required. I don't think they are certified yet though.

You said you are in MI, but where? I am in MI too, and my locals are on the main sats, but yours maybe on 105 or 121 and a wing so you may need a DPP44 if you plan on hitting 61.5 also.
I don't know what dish does with the old VOOM dish, you didn't mention what type of install you were getting, does it include 61.5? Do they convert the old Voom dish LNB? I don't know, but someone here probably does.

 

[SimpleSimon]

NEVER ground to a gas line or anything attached to one! That's absolutely frelling dangerous!

As for switches as ground blocks, that's been "legal" since the beginning. Think about it - E* had to actually make an effort to add the ground lugs to the switch frames. Would they have done that if it were wrong to use them? The E* lawyers wouldn't allow the installation manuals to explictly state that they can be used for grounding if it wasn't kosher. I mean c'mon people, think about it.

 

[joshschuler]

If the job looks nice, the tech makes you happy(within reason), everything works(within the tech's control), and you see a Groundblock/switch with a wire coming off of it that's not coax, then he did a good job.
****no, a switch is NOT a legal ground, at least not here in OH. switch's are NOT UL approved**** NO electronic piece of equipment is a ground. E* has had to fight to try and make switches a NEC ground, but in OH, it is currently not a ground.
If your installer does use a switch to ground though, don't worry, it'll work fine

 

[SatinKzo]

NEVER ground to a gas line or anything attached to one! That's absolutely frelling dangerous!

As for switches as ground blocks, that's been "legal" since the beginning. Think about it - E* had to actually make an effort to add the ground lugs to the switch frames. Would they have done that if it were wrong to use them? The E* lawyers wouldn't allow the installation manuals to explictly state that they can be used for grounding if it wasn't kosher. I mean c'mon people, think about it.

I didn't say a gas line, I said the gas line ground. In some areas of michigan there is a seperate ground for the gas line. SO many homes have two grounds. Especially homes that got converted from old oil/coal/lp tanks to piped in natural gas. The old tanks had to be grounded and the new lines tied into those grounds. New construction does not have the double ground (that I know of). Either one is fine to ground to. Besides, Natrual gas need oxygen to combust and if you have gas leaking in your house, it won't matter what is grounded to it, something else will ignite it before you worry about the grounding. Also Natural gas is lighter than air and dissaptes quickly, unlike heavier than air propane etc. The odd of you getting enough natural gas built up for explosion are much less than propane. Almost every home/gas explosion I have seen on TV has been propane, not natural gas.

You also say to never ground to anything attached to a gas line... How about hot water heaters that use gas? Can I not ground to the water line attached to it since it is also attached to my gas line? Actually in my area if you have a gas water heater or any appliance that uses gas and water, the two pipes must also be bonded to keep potential equalized

Also, there are many municipal codes that do not recognize the DP switches (or anything like them) as proper grounds. They must be explicit grounding blocks. I didn't say they wouldn't work, just said it is up to the code in the area. In my area, Township/city codes are more restrictive that state code and the township/city codes trump state codes due to that.

I don't expect E* lawyers to be up on every little nuance of codes in every part of the country. What they are saying (IMO) is if your area allows it, they can be used as grounds.
Edit: I checked my DPP44 manual and it states nothing about using it as a ground, it says to check NEC code and all state/local codes for grounding requirements. I know the DP34 manual says the switch takes the place of the grounding block, but the DPP44 manual is missing that line and only has the disclaimer about checking local codes.

 

[SimpleSimon]

... Edit: I checked my DPP44 manual and it states nothing about using it as a ground, it says to check NEC code and all state/local codes for grounding requirements. I know the DP34 manual says the switch takes the place of the grounding block, but the DPP44 manual is missing that line and only has the disclaimer about checking local codes.

Try reading the first item on page 8.

For the rest of you, here it is:

The switch is UL approved to take the place of a ground block.

I've had many people try to tell me that a switch can't be used as a ground block, but NO ONE, NOT A SINGLE ONE has ever been able to back up their assertion with ANY FACTS WHATSOEVER - local codes, blah, blah, blah. NO ONE has ever posted PROOF.

But one thing for sure - you better rethink your misconceptions about gas lines. Just ask a certified FireFighter - like me.

 

[SatinKzo]

Simon, I don't mean to start any type of bad feelings as I do not mean any disrespect as your expertise here is invaluable to the site, I learned alot on satellite stuff reading your posts. On this issue though I think we just agree to disagree.
All I am saying is that there are ground lines on gas lines and that is what I am talking about, NOT THE ACTUAL GAS PIPE. It is almost the exact same setup as the water line ground that homes have and I know for a fact in MI that many older homes have a Gas and water line ground system. If you are a certified firefighter in west and norhern lower michigan, than please put me in my place, but if you do not know the envirionment of the area and the different setups of homes in this area, please don't try to tell me I don't know my own house or my parents own house.

When you get a house inspected around here and it is old enough to have an old gas ground, you have two options. You can leave it live, but must bond it to the water system or you can disconnect it at the owners expense.

I will grant you this the new NEC code states that newer homes and rewires must bond any metal pipe in a home that could become energized, this is different now then the old dual ground system. So now all gas pipes, water pipes etc must be bonded as they all have the potential to be energized. Simple applicane grounding on Furnaces and stoves and other units that attach to both services may or may not have the Equipment Grounding Conductor in them to bond the systems and the home must have a bond between the two systems at least once.

Again, however in older homes that have not had any work done, the older dual ground systems still exist.

http://www.nciaei.org/bonding_revisited.htm
EDIT:
here is an cut and paste from my local building codes department after I sent them and email on the bonding in my house on this issue.

7.1 Gas Piping Bonding and Grounding
Each portion of a gas piping system upstream from the equipment shutoff valve shall be electrically continuous and bonded to any grounding electrode, as defined by the National Electrical Code. ANSI/NFPA 70.

they go on to explain that the bonding in my house is code for many older homes and that all gas lines must be grounded to a water line ground or their own system, my house has both systems, but I just checked with my coworker and his home is bonded to his water line.

Ok, edit again as they emailed me this in follow up to my reply to message aboe, but I am not sure why as I was just saying thanks

7.3 Electrical Circuits
Electrical circuits shall not utilize gas piping or components as conductors.
Exception: Low-voltage (50 volts or less) control circuits, ignition circuits, and electric flame detection device circuits shall be permitted to make use of piping or components for a part of an electrical circuit.

So apparently, gas lines can carry much more voltage than I thought, which I guess explains a little more how the broadband over gaslines would work.

End Edit

What about broadband over gas lines? This will require a bit of electricity to carry the signal.
http://www.nethercomm.com/headline2.htm
Here is an article on the same thing
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2005/05/whats_cooking_b.html?campaign_id=rss_blog_techbeat

So, I would take all this to mean that a water ground is your best choice, but in this area, your gas lines are grounded and that ground can be used to ground other things and since the advent of the the new NEC code, the gas lines and older gasline grounding systems are bonded to the water system, so in essence, you are bonding to the water ground.

On the switch grounding issues. I don't disagree that they can be used as ground blocks, I use mine that way, but I have a problem with what you are saying as my manual does not allude to what you say.

Here is a link to DPP44 manual
http://www.montanasatellite.com/manuals/DP_Plus_44_Switch_Installation_Manual.pdf

Page 8 doesn't state what you said. This is same manual I have.

Also here is the DP34 manual
http://www.satelliteone.com/dish/support/DISH_Pro_DP34_Installation_Guide.pdf

Page 7 states it can be used as a ground block, but notice page 10, there is a little disclaimer stating to obey NEC and local codes.
The DPP44 manual I have and the one online are missing the line that is on page 7 of the DP34 manual.


I cannot post a link to my local code as they do not have it online, only repeals and amendments.
However, can you post a scan of your manual? I am now curious as it seems we have completely different manuals.

 

[Liquidforce88]

I am also an installer in Michigan, and do work for AEI. We don't use the switch as a ground block. I can't state as to what code is in our area for a grounded gas line, but I would never attach to anything that was attached to a gas line.

 

[Mike500]

All gas appliances with electrical controls are grounded.

 

[SatinKzo]

All gas appliances with electrical controls are grounded.

Yeah, and most have and EGC connector that bonds the electrial ground to the gas connection or prevents the gas line from becoming energized. \

Also, in a house like mine with a gas stove, the 120v outlet for the stove is only 2 prong 2 wire with no ground wire, but they also have a new 220v outlet for an electric stove (which is grounded obviously). But because my 120v outlet is not grounded, they use the appliance and bond the the gas to the electrical and the gas line is grounded on it's own.

Found this on the web:
On appliances The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 using the rating of the circuit that may energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means.

I also just got ANOTHER email from my local building codes guy (this guys earns his keep in my book, he just keeps researching) who says:

The 1999 NEC code and 2002 Code differ on the matters we discussed, however here is some info I have found that relates to this: (found on web)

During a lightning event or high-voltage crossover, the GEC become the path of the surge currents. In this case, we do not want the gas pipe apart of this system.

On the other hand, a gas pipe that may become energized needs to be bonded so in the event of accidental contact with an energized source, an effective ground-fault path is crteated an OCD's will operate.

Lightning will likely not seek this path as it is not a direct connect to Earth and is on the load side of the service equipment, and the use of a dielectric fitting at the gas meter should isolate the internal bonded pipe from the outside pipe.

 

[SatinKzo]

I talked with Dish Network this afternoon and their tech support department CONFIRMED that the DP34 and DPP44 switches ARE NOT approved nationwide. They had to remove that line from the DPP44 manual due to this and told me to refer to a local installer or building codes department for approval in my area.

I asked them to email/fax me this info, but they deffered the info to the local municipality as they cannot know all the info for each part of the country.

They did say however, that anyone can call and confirm this with them. I am emailing CEO to see if I can get this in writing.

EDIT:

Well, the email I got back was apparently from the same person I talked to on the phone earlier as this is the text of the email, some editing to not release names

Mr. XXXXXX

Please understand per our conversation earlier today that unfortunately our switches are not approved as a grounding block in all areas. Please continue to use your existing grounding setup and always check local codes for future installations. You may have to check local codes unter CATV regulations as not all have satellite specific info, but CATV codes will apply to our equipment per NEC rules and regulations for grounding and termination. While these are just basic guidelines, your local area maybe (probably) is more restrictive and the most restrictive code should always be followed by the installer or yourself.

Your area may also have additional info under ANSI/TIA/EIA regulations.

Hope this answers all your questions and thank you for being a Dish Network Customer.

Jason XXXXXXXXX
Echostar/Dish Network Executive Offices.

 

[SimpleSimon]

I looked at (and saved) the version of the DPP44 manual you referred to. I confirmed that it IS different than mine. Unfortunately, there is NO version information, and they have the same document number (turkeys ). Yes, your version is missing the UL information, so assuming yours is newer, I stand corrected - at least as far as national approvals.

Regarding: "have a new 220v outlet for an electric stove (which is grounded obviously)."

220VAC is not necessarily grounded, or even having a neutral - it bears checking. If it is "new" and "to code", then yes, it has at least one.


Regarding: "During a lightning event or high-voltage crossover, the GEC become the path of the surge currents. In this case, we do not want the gas pipe apart of this system."

That's why you want to keep the gas line out of the circuit for an outdoor antenna (Dish or OTA). As you said earlier, tho, you don't connect to the LINE, but to IT'S ground point - which if it's "real" (rod in the ground or the like), should be OK - I'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis myself.


I've attached my version of the DPP44 manual. Note the top of page 8 and the bottom of page 24.

And now we know why we are both so adamant about being right. My apologies.

 

[SatinKzo]

I wonder if you have the original document and I have a revised one since they found out that different area do not recognize the grounding abilities of the switches.

As for my 220v out it is new and grounded properly. My upstairs is all "old" 2 wire and the rest of my house is new wirinig 3 years ago (I bought the house 2 years ago). Why they didn't finish the rewire is beyond me. Penny saved pound foolish I guess.

I honestly hope there are no bad feelings or anything, I truly do respect the info you provide to this forum and I have and expect to keep learning from you.

 

[cralt]

Try reading the first item on page 8.

For the rest of you, here it is:I've had many people try to tell me that a switch can't be used as a ground block, but NO ONE, NOT A SINGLE ONE has ever been able to back up their assertion with ANY FACTS WHATSOEVER - local codes, blah, blah, blah. NO ONE has ever posted PROOF.

But one thing for sure - you better rethink your misconceptions about gas lines. Just ask a certified FireFighter - like me.

No one? Ever hear of UL? Look on a DP34 switch...see a UL logo stamped in it? Nope...

The 34 switch has ONE ground lug on it...this grounds the switch. Thats IT. You can not use it for grounding the dish. Dish500 kits need a messanger cable run to them or a green wire run to them to be grounded right. Thats because of that dumb plastic Y connector. You ground just the coax and JUST the LNB will be grouned. You need to ground the DISH also. How are you going to fit that messanger wire AND your ground wire in to that one little lug?

Last I heard E* was "WORKING" on getting the DP44 switch UL aproved. But
as of now I havnt noticed a logo on them yet. They have even told us to check grounding blocks for UL stampings. If they dont have them we cant use them. This is to be code in CT..

Ya a switch/spliter will WORK as a ground. But wont pass code.

 

[SatinKzo]

Ok, just to end this issue. I got a second reply to my email I sent to CEO on the grounding issues:

Dear Ryan,



Thank you for your recent email.



Hopefully this helps and gives you some information.







A multi-dish switch can NOT take the place of a ground block. The following instructions apply to a ground block only.

You may want to install the ground block onto the side of the building, or on some other sturdy structure near the satellite dish. Make sure that the location is stable, and that you fasten the ground block tightly to the surface. As stated in Article 820-40 of the National Electrical Code (NEC), locate the ground block as close as possible to the power entry ground.

Mount the ground block so that its connections are horizontal. This helps keep moisture from leaking into the block. Using the shortest path possible, run the coaxial cable(s) from the LNBF(s) to the input(s) on the ground block.

Put a drip loop in each cable to allow moisture to drip from the cable before it runs into the ground block.

Run the ground wire to the power entry ground of the building in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC) and all local electrical codes.
A ground wire must always be a single piece of wire. Never splice two wires together for a ground. Corrosion and weathering can lead to a poor connection at the splice, making the ground ineffective and dangerous. If you cut the ground wire too short, replace it with a single wire cut to the correct length.



Thank you,





Amanda xxxxx

Executive Office of Dish Network

Direct:720-514-xxxx

Email: amanda.xxxxxx@echostar.com









-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan xxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxx@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:05 PM
To: CEO
Subject: Mult-switch approved?* amanda



I am seeing a conflict with local codes and the info inte DP34 manual. The manul states that the switch can take the place of a grounding block, is this true? Also what about the DPP44



Thanks

Ryan xxxxxx

Simon said in his last post that he sees the new information. If you look at his scan, it shows a different manual than the ones they use now, without any revision info to indicate they changed things.

 

[SatinKzo]

sorry got double posted.