Upconversion Question

[Cobra5wood]

My HDTV is a Sony 53"(4x3 format). My DVD player for movies is a Zenith DB318. When I upconvert a "full screen" DVD to 1080i the image is reformatted to 16x9 which I expected. However, when I upconvert a "wide screen" DVD to 1080i, the image is smaller(like going from a 1.78:1 image to a 2.35:1 image). Am I doing something wrong? Should'nt a "widescreen" DVD image be the same height for 480p, 720p, and 1080i?

 

[Carl B]

No. Assuming you are using a DVI or HDMI connection, "full screen" is "uncompressed" video and fills the screen. Anamorphic wide screen fills the screen in accordance with the OAR, which gives you black bars above and below for anything over about 1.85:1.

 

[mini1]

get a real HDTV with a 16:9 format and your problems will be solved.

 

[aegl]

where to upconvert

So there are DVD players that will upconvert (usually only to a DVI or HDMI output).

And there are A/V Receivers that will upconvert.

And there are TVs that will upconvert incoming signals.


Which is best?

Bonus question: Are there any TVs with more than one DVI/HDMI input on the market right now?

 

[mini1]

depends on your set-up. Some HDTV's have great up-converting modes, some do not. No A/V receivers up-convert, besides composite to S-Video, (which is analog) so they are out of the question. Yes, there are HDTV's on the market with both a DVI-HDCP input and an HDMI input. As long as your HDTV has one, you can always convert to it or use a switchbox for more then one device.

 

[aegl]

Thanks. I guess I've seen a couple of receivers that "upconvert inputs to component video" ... but I suppose these aren't doing the same sort of de-interlacing and pixel interpolation that the up-converting DVD players are doing?

Have you seen anyone doing reviews on the quality of HD upconversion? I'm mostly looking at the Samsung DLP screens (46" or 50").

 

[mini1]

"Thanks. I guess I've seen a couple of receivers that "upconvert inputs to component video" ... but I suppose these aren't doing the same sort of de-interlacing and pixel interpolation that the up-converting DVD players are doing?"
No, not the same. If you feed an A/V receiver an analog signal, it will come out of the unit as an analog signal. it may change connection types but analog is still analog.
"Have you seen anyone doing reviews on the quality of HD upconversion? I'm mostly looking at the Samsung DLP screens (46" or 50")."
Check www.avsforum.com

 

[Carl B]

get a real HDTV with a 16:9 format and your problems will be solved.

Well, no not necessarily. Having a year and half experience with a Samsung HLN507W, 50" DLP wide screen and a Samsung DVD-HD931 upconverting DVD player, plus numerous discussions with Samsung technical support concerning the issue originally posted, I can tell you that video sent via DVI from an upconverting DVD to an HDTV is digital all the way. When playing an anamorphic wide screen DVD, the DVI digital signal also passes the control parameters to maintain the OAR. When playing a "full screen" DVD, the DVI signal transmits the movie data as uncompressed video. Thus it seeks to fill the whole screen and there aren't any black bars on the sides or top and bottom. It is sort of like watching the full-screen video in zoom mode. This result with full-screen DVDs played via DVI was the topic of numerous AVS Forum discussion threads and numerous technical support issues with Samsung. Samsung maintains that there isn't anything wrong, the system is performing as designed.

So there are DVD players that will upconvert (usually only to a DVI or HDMI output).
And there are A/V Receivers that will upconvert.
And there are TVs that will upconvert incoming signals. Which is best?

It depends on the hardware involved and your personal preference. My Samsung HDTV has an excellent upconversion process and it makes DVDs feed to it as 480i look much better than just progressive scan on an TV. It doesn't do as well with 480p input (progressive scan) because some of the upscaling, NR, and film mode electronics are bypassed with a 480p input. It still upscales the 480p the 720p HDTV, but it doesn't look quite as good as the same DVD inputted at 480i.

However, the best PQ, IMHO, is derived from using the upscaler in the DVD player. My DVD player's upscaling electronics are very similar to those of my HDTV. So it achieves a good conversion, then sends it to my DTV as a digital signal. That is, it starts digital on the DVD, gets upconverted digitally, gets transmitted digitally and interpreted and played digitally. No digital to analog conversion followed by an analog to digital conversion, which degrades the PQ.

 

[aegl]

full screen DVD problem

Thus it seeks to fill the whole screen and there aren't any black bars on the sides or top and bottom.​

So is the picture stretched to fit, or cropped?

 

[long_time_DNC]

The Samsung HD931 has a stretch mode that causes the DVD to fit the screen (no letterboxing). I don't like it however due to the increased digital fuzz it introduces into the very nicely upconverted DVI signal coming from the 931 into my HLN507W.

I would much prefer to see the DVD in it's OAR upconverted to 1080i and put up with the letterboxing than to force the Samsung DVD player to stretch it and not only lose some resolution, but also lose a little of the image in the stretch-to-fit mode. I tried it numerous times when I first got the pair about 2 years ago and never use the S.fit mode anymore. I just didn't like the results.

 

[Carl B]

I wasn't speaking about the S-fit mode or any selectable options on the HD931. I was referring to what the HD931 does to a "full screen" DVD when transmitted via the DVI connection to a DTV. The selectable modes in this case are for a 16X9 TV in the HD931 setup and Wide in the HLN507W or other DTV setup.

The HD931 transmits uncompressed video that fills the screen in a Zoom-like fashion. Not bad actually, but there is some distortion. The same setup for the HD931 and the DTV with an anamorphic widescreen version of the same DVD, will yield an OAR picture, with black bars above and below if the OAR is greater than 1.85.

Many owners of the HD931 objected to the fact that they couldn't view their "full screen" DVDs via DVI in the 4X3 AR they see with other DVD players. If you have a DTV like the Sammy HLN507W, there is an easy fix for that. Just use the component video cables and send the DVD at 480i to the DTV. The DTV will up-convert the 480i to a quasi-720p and display the output in 4X3 mode as it was recorded. The PQ in this mode is better than the "uncompressed video" of the DVI connection, but for an anamorphic widescreen DVD, the PQ is slightly less impressive than using the HD931 to upconvert to 720p and transmitting the upconverted data via DVI.

 

[long_time_DNC]

I
Many owners of the HD931 objected to the fact that they couldn't view their "full screen" DVDs via DVI in the 4X3 AR they see with other DVD players. If you have a DTV like the Sammy HLN507W, there is an easy fix for that. Just use the component video cables and send the DVD at 480i to the DTV. The DTV will up-convert the 480i to a quasi-720p and display the output in 4X3 mode as it was recorded. The PQ in this mode is better than the "uncompressed video" of the DVI connection, but for an anamorphic widescreen DVD, the PQ is slightly less impressive than using the HD931 to upconvert to 720p and transmitting the upconverted data via DVI.

Ah, I see what you were getting at in your previous messages now. I agree, the full-screen discs via DVI don't look as crisp/clear as widescreen format films, but then pan-and-scan pretty much ruins any film it's used on. Programming originally done in full-frame format looks fine however via my DVI connection. I never buy anything in full-screen format unless it's just not available in widescreen (which is pretty rare for all but TV programs anymore) and then just watch everything in it's OAR in 1080i mode on the HD931. It's an extremely satisfying experience for almost all films. The only ones that get a bit annoying are the films in 2.35 format (thankfully those are few). Now those are hurking black bars!

 

[Carl B]

Yes, every time I get a 2.35 format DVD, I have to re-convince my wife that it is best to watch it with the black bars because that is in its OAR, which is like it was shown at the theatre.

A question for long_time_DNC. Why do you set your 931 for a 1080i output to your HLN507W? That forces one more conversion at the TV to get it to 720p, the Sammy's native resolution. Setting the 931 to 720p for a DVI signal to the HLN507W is as good as it gets in terms of minimizing conversions and maximizing PQ. Just wondering?

 

[long_time_DNC]

Yes, every time I get a 2.35 format DVD, I have to re-convince my wife that it is best to watch it with the black bars because that is in its OAR, which is like it was shown at the theatre.

A question for long_time_DNC. Why do you set your 931 for a 1080i output to your HLN507W? That forces one more conversion at the TV to get it to 720p, the Sammy's native resolution. Setting the 931 to 720p for a DVI signal to the HLN507W is as good as it gets in terms of minimizing conversions and maximizing PQ. Just wondering?

Thankfully there aren't too many contemporary films shot in 2.35 anymore.

I've tried 720p mode and 1080i mode on the 931 numerous times. Switching it for one movie and watching it and then trying another movie at 1080i. I've also tried it within the same movie. Interestingly, even though it forces the additional conversion at the TV down to 720p, it looks better at 1080i. Maybe the 931 does something to sharpen the image more in 1080i mode? I don't know why it seems to help... but I thought it was unusual too. 720p mode isn't bad at all, but 1080i mode just looks a bit sharper.