What exactly is BD+?

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JoeSp

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Oct 11, 2003
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What exactly is BD+? An explanation:

Credit to arstechnia for this one:

"BD+ involves the player running a small virtual machine whenever a BD+ disc is inserted. The virtual machine is a small BD+ content code interpreter that includes 100 lines of code and 60 different instructions. The VM loads additional code from the Blu-ray disc, which can perform one of three functions:

Transform code, which is used to correct sections of video data which are deliberately corrupted on the video stream part of the disc. If hackers strip out only the video code itself, it will display corrupted sections without the application of transform code. This code may also be used to add digital watermarks to certain discs, which can then be used for forensic investigations of leaked copyrighted material.
Basic countermeasures, which can check a player that is known to have had its hardware hacked—for example, a patch to the drive's firmware—and detect and respond to this hack. This allows new discs to disable playback on standalone players that have been hacked, without having to revoke the license keys of the entire model or line of players.
Advanced countermeasures, which can load native code that runs directly on the Blu-ray player during the playback process. This code can do any number of things, but is designed to provide additional methods of protection should the basic countermeasures fail. "


And concerning ability to break this new protection layer:

"Once the disc is removed from the player, the virtual machine unloads and is no longer present in memory. This returns the Blu-ray player to its initial state, so that even if a machine fails to play a BD+ title, it should still (again, in theory) play previously-released Blu-ray titles that do not have BD+ protection.

According to the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), for hackers to successfully attack the BD+ system they would have to first extract the AACS keys (which has already been done quite successfully) and then overcome title-specific security code by reverse-engineering the BD+ virtual machine. While this last bit is definitely an additional challenge, it is by no means impossible."


This was extracted from this article:

Blu-ray content protection agency certifies BD+

Simply a tougher nut to crack -- and as soon as it is out every hacker worldwide will be trying to be the first to successfully crack this baby. My guess is this is why they want the players hooked up to the internet so a cracked copy can call 'home'. Also it does give the studio the ablility to change codes on every movie. Let the hunt begin.
 
Ive heard they can even go as far to brick a player that is playing an illegal copy.

Some have said 3mo's to crack it, others say years. I do think if it sticks for more than 6mo's itll give studios a reason to support BD. Im hopeing it holds.
 
Ive heard they can even go as far to brick a player that is playing an illegal copy.

Well, they keep stressing this - "Once the disc is removed from the player, the virtual machine unloads and is no longer present in memory. This returns the Blu-ray player to its initial state" - as "proof" that it will never "brick" a player, just prevent playback of the BD+ authored disc on "compromised" players.

But, I'm not convinced. The third, "advanced countermeasure" phase loads native code specific to the player sure sounds like firmware to me, which would alter the player even after the disc is removed.

And it sounds to me like BD+ discs will not player on PC's with player software. BD+ is supposed to have digitally signed specs for every BD player which it uses for the 3 phases - the first to "inspect" that the playback system is authentic and has not been altered, and then the 2nd & 3rd phases take action if there has been any alteration. There's no way BD+ is going to have any specs for all the variations of PC's.

And then it begs the question - if BD+ contains specs of all existing BD players . . . . what is the disc going to do when played in a few years on a player which didn't exist when the disc was authored?

I hope it works to encourage studios (Fox in particular) to release more content. But then that begs the question: Why is Fox so paranoid about piracy while Disney, Sony, WB, Paramount & Universal have been releasing their prized content with reckless abandon with only the already exposed AACS protection? :confused:
 
An interesting comment by Amir regarding DRM in general (but talking about BD+):
Oh, there are people 10X smarter than us in breaking a copy protection system. Trust me, they don't need our help one bit. We are often tempted to go and hire these people, they are that good.

My posts sends a different signal. It says that we understand the bounds of PC copy protection systems exceptionally well, having had to defend ours for 8 years now. Indeed, we are unique in having such deep understanding of what you can defend against, and what you can't. And what an incredible effort it takes to have a DRM system that stays more robust, than breached. All of this tells us that BD+ has little chance of fulfilling its dreams in practice. Anyone who bets against the above hackers, better not gamble in Vegas
biggrin.gif
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Taken from here
Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 86 - AVS Forum

I have a strong suspicion he's talking about the gang at SlySoft...

Diogen.
 
Think of the liability if any company was shown to break the copy protection of another.
 
I tend to ignore Amir when possible and actually unsubscribed from that insider thread so I dont have to look at his crap.

He likes to slap BD in the back of the head, then look up in the air with his hands behind his back like it wasn't a cheap shot. MOST of the other insiders are much more mature.

I can get Penton Mans and Paidgeeks intel from another site anyways.
 
During a dense back and forth between Talkstr8t and Amir on AVS, Talk said the following:
AVS Forum - View Single Post - Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders
...but does managed copy imply that the copy has to be of the same quality level as the original? If the copy is 720p or lower at a substantially lower bitrate than the original that could alleviate some concern. Perhaps the copy will be watermarked in such a way as to easily trace subsequent illegal copies back to a specific person. I have seen no reason to believe that wanting BD+ for additional copy protection and support for managed copy are mutually-exclusive objectives.
Later Talk added
AVS Forum - View Single Post - Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders
The discussion I've been carrying on with Amir regarding how BD+ and managed copy might interact is theoretical. Don't assume there will be degradation, watermarking, or anything else based on what I have said.
but if this is what BD is planning to implement as Managed Copy (and it looks like BD+ is capable of doing just that) - they can shove it up their corporate a$$es.

In the end it felt like Talk said too much and refused to discuss any further.

I really hope BD+ gets broken and I"ll do my own copies managed just by me.

Diogen.
 
I hope it works to encourage studios (Fox in particular) to release more content. But then that begs the question: Why is Fox so paranoid about piracy while Disney, Sony, WB, Paramount & Universal have been releasing their prized content with reckless abandon with only the already exposed AACS protection? :confused:


Full disclosure here....HD-DVD supporter.....re: Fox You have to have a mindset of a conniving thug to assume everyone is going to steal your precious movies as does the owner of Fox. Trust no one, greed is good, and
I'll tell you what fair and balanced is.....BluRay DVDs. Go ahead and hack my discs and I'll have O'Reilly and Hannitty tell people that terrorists are behind it. And I'll get BD hacking written into the Patriot Act
 
Wouldn't it be ironic if a format design team deliberately made their code easier to crack, which encourages pirates to crack and copy titles, which gets lots of consumers to buy the player so they can buy cheap pirated copies, which "legitimizes" the disc format! Then, the design team releases a far more difficult or evolving security standard that becomes a moving target to crack, putting most pirates out of business. By then their format is the standard, the competing format has disappeared, and they win the format war by having depended on piracy to crack their initial security!

Sounds like an espionage book with a few interesting twists. :cool:
 
I really hope BD+ gets broken and I"ll do my own copies managed just by me.

Don't you think if it's completely broken, studios will be less likely to release as many titles? We could all lose then.
 
Wouldn't it be ironic if a format design team deliberately made their code easier to crack, which encourages pirates to crack and copy titles, which gets lots of consumers to buy the player so they can buy cheap pirated copies, which "legitimizes" the disc format!
I don't think we will ever have an authoritative answer to this question. :D
AACS was a textbook implementation of AES-128 in it most simplistic form. And it was approved by AACS LA, including both Microsoft and Sony. I think the biggest problem is PC playback: you are doomed if you don't allow it (i.e. SACD) and you are doomed if you allow (DVD, CD, HD/BD). But at least CD/DVD made money, lots of money. And to repeat the obvious, money is what this is all about... Except maybe for Fox, but that's a clinical case, IMHO.
Then, the design team releases a far more difficult or evolving security standard that becomes a moving target to crack, putting most pirates out of business.
This worked in satellite hacking but I'm not sure it will work with AACS/BD+.
The moment you release disks using a particular DRM, the system is set in stone, very few variations are allowed. The whole decoding/decrypting chain is done in hardware. Changing DRM makes those players useless. And since you can't replace all players (unlike satellite receivers), there is not much you can do, save for banning PC playback outright. But even that won't save AACS hacking at the moment. Time will tell how good BD+ is...

Breaking HD/BD will never be as easy as DVD. But it will be doable, I believe...

Diogen.
 
I don't think it will be a killer to ban high def playback on PCs. But I doubt they'll ban it, all the same.
 
good reason NOT to buy BluRay IMO. Can you back up your DVD's now? Yes its easy. Can you rip HD DVD yes with the same AnyDVD software. WHy would the consumer want to take a step backwards?
 
good reason NOT to buy BluRay IMO. Can you back up your DVD's now? Yes its easy. Can you rip HD DVD yes with the same AnyDVD software. WHy would the consumer want to take a step backwards?
You assume BD+ doesn't get hacked... I don't believe this will be the case.
And I still think BD+ will have very limited usage.

Diogen.
 
There are only some 12 days left before we get to know what BD+ is really all about
Jeff Williams said:
The Day After Tomorrow should be the first release to have BD+. It's set for release on October 2nd.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11665866&postcount=1121

If FOX doesn't pull it... again... that is.

This might explain why Master and Commander was pulled:
if there is risk to screw things up, you better don't do it with a popular title
(the first Fifth Element should have been a good enough example).

Diogen.
 
So, tomorrow is the day... Will it have BD+?
Hopefully it does and the hacking can start.

Very exciting times...:)

Diogen.
 
So, tomorrow is the day... Will it have BD+?

Yes -

ryoohki;Blu-ray.com_Insider_Thread said:
The first BD+ is Day After Tomorrow, this was confirmed by looking at the Disc Structure (There's a BD+ drawers on the disc), this disc don't work on the LG and BDP 1200, but work on the Panasonic (Long load time) and PS3.


Hopefully it does and the hacking can start.

Very exciting times...:)

Diogen.

Not so exciting for owners of Samsung and LG players so far. :hatsoff:
 

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