which actuator for a 6 footer?
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I was able to track from 55.5 to 139 with an 18" on a 10' BUD from 88 west.
I never tempted any thing past that until I got a 24" Heavy Duty Arm, for fear of flopping the Dish.
It usually depends on the Mechanics of the Dish vs. how long the Arm can travel. As the Arm extends, it will come in contact with the Dish at some point, a longer Arm will not fix that.
You can use a broom handle in place of an Arm to help get an idea of how much of the Arc you might be able to get.
I never tempted any thing past that until I got a 24" Heavy Duty Arm, for fear of flopping the Dish.
It usually depends on the Mechanics of the Dish vs. how long the Arm can travel. As the Arm extends, it will come in contact with the Dish at some point, a longer Arm will not fix that.
You can use a broom handle in place of an Arm to help get an idea of how much of the Arc you might be able to get.
Finally, got the heavy duty 36" arm , and it is almost taller than me, lol. well , with 5.5 almost anyone or anything can be taller than me anyways, lol. I will be installing it tomorrow and using a VBox II to drive it. The canadian distributor did not have a heavy duty 24". Eventually I know I will grow to closer a 10 footer at some point in the future so decided to go with this one but I am having second thoughts as to whether it will actually give me better accuracy than a heavy duty 24 or 18". Unless of course I modify the polar mount and then grab the dish further away from the polar axis pivot point.
longer not always better:
HD -
Yes, there's a thread around here somewhere and that didn't quite do the job.
I suggested a full solution, but then the thread died.
I should mark up a picture of how to do that and make it work.
No reason you shouldn't get full travel (and more accuracy) when you use a bigger/longer jack, and often ya won't.
edit:
See if my answer at the end of this thread makes sense.
If not, I'll get out Paint and mark up a picture to make it clearer.
HD -
Yes, there's a thread around here somewhere and that didn't quite do the job.
I suggested a full solution, but then the thread died.
I should mark up a picture of how to do that and make it work.
No reason you shouldn't get full travel (and more accuracy) when you use a bigger/longer jack, and often ya won't.
edit:
See if my answer at the end of this thread makes sense.
If not, I'll get out Paint and mark up a picture to make it clearer.
Last edited:
I totally agree with you, I even had read that thread already. No need for a picture, I am even considering installing a pole farther back and to the right so the arm is parallel to the mount (so when it faces true south it pushes the Dish perpendicular) but first will test using the included fixed plate to grab the dish further away from the pivot point. I still have to fill the gap between the mount and the 2.5" Sched 40 pole (3" OD). The mount is actually 3.5" ID , I forgot to measure it when I assembled it and bought the pole based on all the documentation that says 75 mm pole recommended. I still blame the americans for the mistake, lol. I will be using a short ABS plumbing 3" pipe.
Everything is large and heavy, even for this 6 footer , so I am waiting for extra help. weather nice today as per the canadians brutally weather standards. will keep gathering info and planning in the mean time.
Everything is large and heavy, even for this 6 footer , so I am waiting for extra help. weather nice today as per the canadians brutally weather standards. will keep gathering info and planning in the mean time.
Thanks, glad it wasn't wasted effort.
I was a little surprised at the findings of wrdavis.
Hadn't really realized the full extent of the shortcomings of that mount geometry.
I've focused on H-H mounts, which have their own unique personality.
No need for a picture; I'm reading ya fine.
That'll probably give you a little more travel to the ... uhhh ... to one side, without affecting the other ??
Confusing. Now you know why I've opted for H-H mounts -
We probably need a good how-to or FAQ on the geometry of the standard polar mount.
I've not seen one in all my travels.
For some reason, I was picturing Pro96 (who lives about 50 miles from me), and trying to get the joke.
The high will be 68°F today, rising to 76°F next Wednesday. -
- (20°C - 24°C)hurra!!!! or whatever, lol!. I finally installed the jack and it is working , no ku yet will fine tune it tomorrow. I can go from 55.5 to 135 (although I just have tried a few satellites yet). after 55.5 it starts making a weird noise apparently because the arm pushes the Dish bracket ring, will look more into it tomorrow. i have not set the limits , non of them yet , but will do tomorrow. BTW the fixed plate on the fortec has a way to be installed so the arm is parallel to the center axis and grabs the clamp further back , no need to install a extra pole for the arm. I think that the 18 heavy duty would have been sufficient for this 6 footer , but heck now a need a bigger dish for the more difficult signals, lol.
I could not fill the gap with the ABS 3" pipe since the mount cap is 3 1/4 ID , luckily after they gave me the 3" Schedule 40 I measured it and decided to take a 2.5" Schedule 40 instead back when I bought the pole. I wonder if 3" Schedule 80 steel pipe would have been less than 3 1/4" OD then.
I am going to set the limits , at least at the positioner, since with the CS 8100 I am not very confortable using other than USALS. It has a motor option but I better set the limits just in case.
Just to summarize , the 18 hd arm (hd better for the higher pulse count than the TD regular) would have been enough for this Fortec Star 6 footer since the arm only travels around 13 or 14 inches from 55W to 135 W and that is using the farthest point and locating the clamp as far back as I could on the mount. I have not been able to use the remote control and therefore have to use the 2 front buttons, will check the batteries just in case. will see how to set the hardware limits as well.
I could not fill the gap with the ABS 3" pipe since the mount cap is 3 1/4 ID , luckily after they gave me the 3" Schedule 40 I measured it and decided to take a 2.5" Schedule 40 instead back when I bought the pole. I wonder if 3" Schedule 80 steel pipe would have been less than 3 1/4" OD then.
I am going to set the limits , at least at the positioner, since with the CS 8100 I am not very confortable using other than USALS. It has a motor option but I better set the limits just in case.
Just to summarize , the 18 hd arm (hd better for the higher pulse count than the TD regular) would have been enough for this Fortec Star 6 footer since the arm only travels around 13 or 14 inches from 55W to 135 W and that is using the farthest point and locating the clamp as far back as I could on the mount. I have not been able to use the remote control and therefore have to use the 2 front buttons, will check the batteries just in case. will see how to set the hardware limits as well.
well I am getting Ku as well. I forgot the files I have on the birdog are for Standar Ku LNB and I have a C/Universal Ku combo installed. I left it on AMC 6 (I still have to bury and rough in power and sensor cables to livingroom), and I get the gospel channel with 62 quality but no KFTL. Nasa comes in with 60 Q on the CS 8100 as well I get the PCN and RBT from brasil and some jhsonson color bars.
The funny thing is I did not have a board to messure the highest point or Zenith and the freaking Jhonson inclinometer started to jump or behave strangely (if that word even exists) nor I could mesassure declination accurately (I do not trust the back ring to give me a proper meassure) . So I decided to move the dish until it was parallel and then because 79 is my TS sat (so close since I am at 78.3) I played with the declination. I am fixing the polar axis at my latitude as per dish pointer just to see diferences with the modified polar mount aproach of some charts. I still have to do more fine tuning but this time with the proper ku files on the birdog.
Clear skys tonight and supposedly the North Star should be exactly where the polar axis or pivot axis aims , that is my latitude, right when looking from under the Dish. the freaking hydro pole is right there so the bright light and maybe some small clouds do not let me see it to confirm I am at true south. I am using a cheapy, crazy moving, never stops rotating, do not like iron around, stay away from metal compas ( yeah this one is so cheap that is even missing 1 s, lol) therefore I am not quite sure I am at true south. Now if I could only determine how many clicks I have to move from TS to 79W ( like with USALS where the motor knows exactly where to move) therefore you just have to rotate the whole thing on the pole just to peak the signal if the rest of the parameters are set correctly.
Any how I am very happy with the install so far
The funny thing is I did not have a board to messure the highest point or Zenith and the freaking Jhonson inclinometer started to jump or behave strangely (if that word even exists) nor I could mesassure declination accurately (I do not trust the back ring to give me a proper meassure) . So I decided to move the dish until it was parallel and then because 79 is my TS sat (so close since I am at 78.3) I played with the declination. I am fixing the polar axis at my latitude as per dish pointer just to see diferences with the modified polar mount aproach of some charts. I still have to do more fine tuning but this time with the proper ku files on the birdog.
Clear skys tonight and supposedly the North Star should be exactly where the polar axis or pivot axis aims , that is my latitude, right when looking from under the Dish. the freaking hydro pole is right there so the bright light and maybe some small clouds do not let me see it to confirm I am at true south. I am using a cheapy, crazy moving, never stops rotating, do not like iron around, stay away from metal compas ( yeah this one is so cheap that is even missing 1 s, lol) therefore I am not quite sure I am at true south. Now if I could only determine how many clicks I have to move from TS to 79W ( like with USALS where the motor knows exactly where to move) therefore you just have to rotate the whole thing on the pole just to peak the signal if the rest of the parameters are set correctly.
Any how I am very happy with the install so far
Well now using the CS 6000, that has blind scan, I can watch the NBC mux and it also locks in the KFTL channel at barely 62-64 but it does not log in the channel if I even scan it manually. The CS 8100 did not even lock the signal , not even if I set the PID manually. Both Gospel and NBC are at 69-70 Q on the CS 6000. Last night it was also clear skies and Gospel was at 62 , today on the CS 8100 is at 32 only.
I agree with Anole that we should have a better documented FAQ or Sticky in regards of actuator arms , their differences and suitabilities for differents type and sizes of BUD. This 36" HD arm is an over overkill for my particular aplication , that is a 6 footer tracking from 30W to 139W (I can only track from 55W to 135 due to trees and a rooftop) but even an 18" arm can reach those extreme sats). Althought the 18"arm at 30W will only have less than 2 inches inside therefore putting too much stress probably. the HV or higher count version better for Ku tracking since it has more precision to stop.
I still have to analize the VBOX further , but so far I am under the impression that the GBOX only add cosmetics improvements (pretty much like what Raul Castro has done so far in Cuba) like 6 caracter SAT names rather than positions or pulses only, or customizable names half of them (30 fixed + 30 customaizable). BTW It reminds me of my 9242 HD PVR from Bell TV , after I bought it , they came out with a newer model that is basically a stripped down version lacking some very important features. This is only speculation of course since I have not been able to test both side to side but the key is that the precision is within the actuator nor the controller. The controller could read double the counts (up and down of the pulse like Anole suggested) but the actuator has no way to stop at those places , it can only stop at the center of the pulse. In any given system the total accuracy or precision or efficiency is always determined by the lowest accurate part of the system. It is the equivalent of one meassuring the length of a 2x4 stud with an english tape that is only 1/4 of an inch accurate, you would be able to tell or assume that the length is 6' and 3/8 but because of the poor accuracy of the tape you can only cut the length at 6'and 1/2 " at best. In this case it means nothing to have a better "brain" read decoder if the cutter (read actuator) only has a 1/4" precise tape. I hope you guys see my point here.
All this "trova" is just to defuse the "internal rant" because it has taken me several months and I have been reading and posting questions about all this just to select the optimal mover system for this 6 footer yet I feel I was never given the proper answer. Our forum has a lot af valuable info in this matter , do not misinterpret me, but I feel that it is either scattered or difficult to find or I do not know what else but in any case I was under the impression that bigger was better and that the GBOX was the "God" and I do not think neither are the case. Pretty much like Castro I always end up blaming the americans for my mistakes , lol , classical cuban comunism , lol. From 135W (I know I can not get further because the rooftop so decided to start factory retracted just a bit west of 135) to 72W I have 490 counts or less than 11 inches wich is consistent to 48 counts per inch (I did not mark the start, grrr).
In any case instead of continuing blaming or ranting I will gather more info and try to somehow gather it all together and organize it to eventually end up with having a full conprehensive info on our forum, with everybodys input of course.
Time to start tracking with the birdog's spectrum analizer on Ku a see those peaks going up and down as the dish travels the arc.
Cheers
JJ the Small C Band Guy ........... small refers to the guy not the Dish , lol.
I agree with Anole that we should have a better documented FAQ or Sticky in regards of actuator arms , their differences and suitabilities for differents type and sizes of BUD. This 36" HD arm is an over overkill for my particular aplication , that is a 6 footer tracking from 30W to 139W (I can only track from 55W to 135 due to trees and a rooftop) but even an 18" arm can reach those extreme sats). Althought the 18"arm at 30W will only have less than 2 inches inside therefore putting too much stress probably. the HV or higher count version better for Ku tracking since it has more precision to stop.
I still have to analize the VBOX further , but so far I am under the impression that the GBOX only add cosmetics improvements (pretty much like what Raul Castro has done so far in Cuba) like 6 caracter SAT names rather than positions or pulses only, or customizable names half of them (30 fixed + 30 customaizable). BTW It reminds me of my 9242 HD PVR from Bell TV , after I bought it , they came out with a newer model that is basically a stripped down version lacking some very important features. This is only speculation of course since I have not been able to test both side to side but the key is that the precision is within the actuator nor the controller. The controller could read double the counts (up and down of the pulse like Anole suggested) but the actuator has no way to stop at those places , it can only stop at the center of the pulse. In any given system the total accuracy or precision or efficiency is always determined by the lowest accurate part of the system. It is the equivalent of one meassuring the length of a 2x4 stud with an english tape that is only 1/4 of an inch accurate, you would be able to tell or assume that the length is 6' and 3/8 but because of the poor accuracy of the tape you can only cut the length at 6'and 1/2 " at best. In this case it means nothing to have a better "brain" read decoder if the cutter (read actuator) only has a 1/4" precise tape. I hope you guys see my point here.
All this "trova" is just to defuse the "internal rant" because it has taken me several months and I have been reading and posting questions about all this just to select the optimal mover system for this 6 footer yet I feel I was never given the proper answer. Our forum has a lot af valuable info in this matter , do not misinterpret me, but I feel that it is either scattered or difficult to find or I do not know what else but in any case I was under the impression that bigger was better and that the GBOX was the "God" and I do not think neither are the case. Pretty much like Castro I always end up blaming the americans for my mistakes , lol , classical cuban comunism , lol. From 135W (I know I can not get further because the rooftop so decided to start factory retracted just a bit west of 135) to 72W I have 490 counts or less than 11 inches wich is consistent to 48 counts per inch (I did not mark the start, grrr).
In any case instead of continuing blaming or ranting I will gather more info and try to somehow gather it all together and organize it to eventually end up with having a full conprehensive info on our forum, with everybodys input of course.
Time to start tracking with the birdog's spectrum analizer on Ku a see those peaks going up and down as the dish travels the arc.
Cheers
JJ the Small C Band Guy ........... small refers to the guy not the Dish , lol.
holly smokes!!!!! with the remote the VBOX positioner is a beauty!!!!!!!!. I was using the front controls but those move the dish too far, with the remote is pulse by pulse. Now without adjusting anything I just had to click 4 times eastward and NBC went from 70 to 92% in the CS 6000!!!. To give an idea at the LNB I had 7.1 dB C/N and now is 10.4 dB !!! a 3.3 dB gain!!!! It went from 10 Q (pre-BER) to 44Q on the birdog. The Dish barely moved , I just noticed the motor making a noise !!!! that is how narrow the beamwith is on Ku with this 6 ft solid dish!!!.
Ohhh! I just blind scanned and just saw those wild HD feeds you guys talk about , jejeje and of course KTFL now has 64-66 Q and I can even watch it but still with very minor rare audio cut outs and small rare pixealation. The SA on the birdog shows lots of signals going on by the way (not to mention the Nimiq 5 bird).
Funny thing is I am using the Dishpointer values , that is latitude and 6.7 for declination offset instead of the modified polar mount values which are usually elevation a bit higher than latitude and declination offset a bit lower than the normal polar mount value than most charts use.
Will set the hardware limits now to avoid damage and also the software limits at the controller now that the remote finally works, just in case.
Ohhh! I just blind scanned and just saw those wild HD feeds you guys talk about , jejeje and of course KTFL now has 64-66 Q and I can even watch it but still with very minor rare audio cut outs and small rare pixealation. The SA on the birdog shows lots of signals going on by the way (not to mention the Nimiq 5 bird).
Funny thing is I am using the Dishpointer values , that is latitude and 6.7 for declination offset instead of the modified polar mount values which are usually elevation a bit higher than latitude and declination offset a bit lower than the normal polar mount value than most charts use.
Will set the hardware limits now to avoid damage and also the software limits at the controller now that the remote finally works, just in case.
clear as mud?
The length of the motor shaft has nothing to do with the dish size.
If an 18" motor will give you full throw on a given 6' dish & mount, then the 24" or 36" motor will still move only 18" and do the same job.
HOWEVER, if you take a 10' or 12' BUD, the geometry of that mount is probably different, and would only move the dish over a small portion of the arc with an 18" motor.
It's not the dish; it's the mount geometry that gives you mechanical advantage to move a large dish with a long motor.
So, if you want more accuracy, or more leverage to move a heavy dish, the mount must have a long distance from the dish pivot point to the motor base, AND (from the pivot) out to where the motor attaches to the back side of the dish.
If (either of) those distances are short, you won't have the mechanical advantage needed.
Well I thought it was clear, but maybe not to other readers:
The length of the motor shaft has nothing to do with the dish size.
If an 18" motor will give you full throw on a given 6' dish & mount, then the 24" or 36" motor will still move only 18" and do the same job.
HOWEVER, if you take a 10' or 12' BUD, the geometry of that mount is probably different, and would only move the dish over a small portion of the arc with an 18" motor.
It's not the dish; it's the mount geometry that gives you mechanical advantage to move a large dish with a long motor.
So, if you want more accuracy, or more leverage to move a heavy dish, the mount must have a long distance from the dish pivot point to the motor base, AND (from the pivot) out to where the motor attaches to the back side of the dish.
If (either of) those distances are short, you won't have the mechanical advantage needed.
Agree with you , the point is , Why then do manufacturers build them in such a way that you can not optimally move the dish with the shortest arm?. What I mean is , in the case of this Fortec Star 6' Polar Mount Dish , the bar that has the hole (has 3) to attach the arm should have been just 2 inches longer past the ring and would have been perfect instead of having the third and last hole so close to the ring (this is a heavy duty arm , maybe the standar arm with a smaller end does not touch the ring). Another thing , the bracket should have been longer so as you say we can grab the saddle clamp further back from the pivot point buy putting the fixed plate 90 degrees with the bracket instead of a 160 degrees almost (it is shorter therefore less strain on the fixed plate and more important less triangulation angle to start with). It is a big dilema.
If I use the standard arm then I have 36 pulses only (important for Ku) but if I use the heavy duty then I have to grab the dish on the second hole therefore I loose angular accuracy (more angular travel then per linear travel ) unless I fabricate an adaptor.
And dont get me on the Pole Diameter issue please, they claim a 75 mm pole acceptable yet the mount is 81 mm inside diameter , so I got a 2.5 "schedule 40 pipe that is 73 mm OD and guess what now I have to fill the gap!!! , unbeleivable!!! and unaceptable at the same time!!!. Anyways I guess I better apologize for the blaming the americans comments because I just found out that Fortec Star is a canadian company , No Wonder I am having all this problems!!! sometimes I feel I should have waited until I had won the Visa lottery to USA instead of applying and coming to live to Canada.
Too dark these days and rainy so I will continue this weekend, more likely will use the second hole and see how it performs. And I will be using the declination chart you posted instead of the dishpointer values since I was not able to track the arc fully with those. it is just a hobby so no hurry neither worries. Bell TV takes care of the Fall shows.
Thanks for all your input Anole. One thing I do not get very well is the Alignment of the arm, the manual says it should be 90 between the clamp and the end (it even suggest the difference should be less than 5 degrees). What exactly Do they mean? , both shlould be on the same plane? paralell to the bracket or in other words perpendicular to the Dish (to apply maximun force I guess)? BTW , both the clamp and the end of the arm has like a ball, can I force that ball with a screwdriver to move to a more suitable position? or should I just not touch it at all. My arm has the motor on the top but inclined so still the draining holes are not right at the bottom.
If I use the standard arm then I have 36 pulses only (important for Ku) but if I use the heavy duty then I have to grab the dish on the second hole therefore I loose angular accuracy (more angular travel then per linear travel ) unless I fabricate an adaptor.
And dont get me on the Pole Diameter issue please, they claim a 75 mm pole acceptable yet the mount is 81 mm inside diameter , so I got a 2.5 "schedule 40 pipe that is 73 mm OD and guess what now I have to fill the gap!!! , unbeleivable!!! and unaceptable at the same time!!!. Anyways I guess I better apologize for the blaming the americans comments because I just found out that Fortec Star is a canadian company , No Wonder I am having all this problems!!! sometimes I feel I should have waited until I had won the Visa lottery to USA instead of applying and coming to live to Canada.
Too dark these days and rainy so I will continue this weekend, more likely will use the second hole and see how it performs. And I will be using the declination chart you posted instead of the dishpointer values since I was not able to track the arc fully with those. it is just a hobby so no hurry neither worries. Bell TV takes care of the Fall shows.
Thanks for all your input Anole. One thing I do not get very well is the Alignment of the arm, the manual says it should be 90 between the clamp and the end (it even suggest the difference should be less than 5 degrees). What exactly Do they mean? , both shlould be on the same plane? paralell to the bracket or in other words perpendicular to the Dish (to apply maximun force I guess)? BTW , both the clamp and the end of the arm has like a ball, can I force that ball with a screwdriver to move to a more suitable position? or should I just not touch it at all. My arm has the motor on the top but inclined so still the draining holes are not right at the bottom.
Well finally tracking the Arc but only on C Band , I am still having issues with Ku. A couple of things, I decided to relocate the arm to grab the dish by the center hole (there are 3 on the fixed bar) and therefore now the whole arc from 30 W to 139W rquieres 14 inches only!!. Like Anole said you gain accuracy by going to the furthest grab point but only on the west side because in the east there is no big improvement apparently.
The CS 6000 using DisecQ 1.2 controls the arm nicely although the fine move option does not move it, not even 1 pulse. I have to use the Vbox for fine 1 pulse movement.
Secondly , the Fortec Star 6 ft Dish comes with only 2 brass washers to be used with the obama, I mean the bush, lol, at the pivot points therefore I had to buy 2 more , 5/6 inches. That is why I was saying I did not think I assembled it properly because it had a lot of free movement that I did not care about since it was a fixed dish. Now everything is properly assembled and nothing moves freely.
I set the limits at the VBOX but did not set it by hardware since it meant I had to disconnect the arm and it was windy and as always I was alone. The triangulation of arm
is probably more than 150 degrees from extremes but the arm still retracts rather easily from 30W.
Like I said I am still having issues with Ku , I can see there is a signal since the Q meter jumps from 25 to 48 but it does not lock. Will work on that tomorrow. still the jhonson protractor sometimes say 44 sometimes 48 on the same location and the compass if you can call it a compass does not help either.
BTW I ended up using the declination charts values rather than dispointer ones. 44.2 and 6 offset for me.
the 24"arm would have been sufficient since the 18" would have probably had to much stress when pulling from 30W.
The CS 6000 using DisecQ 1.2 controls the arm nicely although the fine move option does not move it, not even 1 pulse. I have to use the Vbox for fine 1 pulse movement.
Secondly , the Fortec Star 6 ft Dish comes with only 2 brass washers to be used with the obama, I mean the bush, lol, at the pivot points therefore I had to buy 2 more , 5/6 inches. That is why I was saying I did not think I assembled it properly because it had a lot of free movement that I did not care about since it was a fixed dish. Now everything is properly assembled and nothing moves freely.
I set the limits at the VBOX but did not set it by hardware since it meant I had to disconnect the arm and it was windy and as always I was alone. The triangulation of arm
is probably more than 150 degrees from extremes but the arm still retracts rather easily from 30W.
Like I said I am still having issues with Ku , I can see there is a signal since the Q meter jumps from 25 to 48 but it does not lock. Will work on that tomorrow. still the jhonson protractor sometimes say 44 sometimes 48 on the same location and the compass if you can call it a compass does not help either.
BTW I ended up using the declination charts values rather than dispointer ones. 44.2 and 6 offset for me.
the 24"arm would have been sufficient since the 18" would have probably had to much stress when pulling from 30W.
No , even C can probably be improved just a bit. On true south sat I can see the Ku signals on the SA on the birdog but can not lock it yet inside. I will start working on final adjustments later although it will rain. I do not think it is the feedhorn position/rotation since I have not touched and it was even getting KTLA on 72W. Since I have a problem with the compass I will start by adjusting the extreme sats 55 and 135 by rotating the whole mount just a hair probably and then adjusting elevation to lock/peak 79W unless you guys think that I better lock 79W first with the elevation setting. I have managed to lock it at times but with very low quality and low C/N.
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