Why does a surge protoector make any difference?

[whatchel1]

Can it be explained why it makes a difference why having a VIP DVR plugged into a surge protector would make any difference? There are many questions that have the answer that it is necessary to have a VIP DVR plugged direct in the wall instead of through a surge protector. Why would a good surge protector make any difference? I have mine is going thru a Panamax that was designed for satellite and have never ever had any problems but what would make a difference on other surge protectors?

 

[tnsprin]

Main reason is that with most surge protectors you cannot use the Dishcomm features of the VIP receivers.

 

[Peter Parker]

Personally I think a DVR needs an UPS and I live without DISHCOMM.

 

[bookworm370]

Agreed!

 

[KenSoren]

If you want to use the built in homeplug feature then you can't use a surge protector because you need to plug directly into a wall plug. But you can use a surge or UPS and connect to your home network with the RJ4 plug on the back to the receiver.

 

[highdefjeff]

Other than Dishcomm considerations, some surge protectors cause reboot problems. Never had an issue with Panamax but some of the Monster power products have had to be disconnected. Other than Monster, I've encountered some generic power strips/surge protectors that have caused problems.

 

[Awohar]

Take apart a surge protector and you'll understand. Most of them are garbage components inside unless you have a really high quality unit.

Computers and computer-like equipment (DVRs, etc.) are real sensitive to voltage irregularities and any problems with fluctuating current tends to wreak havoc on them whereas many other pieces of equipment are just fine.

 

[whatchel1]

That's it

Take apart a surge protector and you'll understand. Most of them are garbage components inside unless you have a really high quality unit.

Computers and computer-like equipment (DVRs, etc.) are real sensitive to voltage irregularities and any problems with fluctuating current tends to wreak havoc on them whereas many other pieces of equipment are just fine.

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I knew junk ones were just that but I just wanted to hear from others as to why. It almost seems like we should be putting them on UPS's.

 

[highdefjeff]

Take apart a surge protector and you'll understand. Most of them are garbage components inside unless you have a really high quality unit.

Computers and computer-like equipment (DVRs, etc.) are real sensitive to voltage irregularities and any problems with fluctuating current tends to wreak havoc on them whereas many other pieces of equipment are just fine.

I am aware of two ways that these can affect digital systems.

One way is for a power supply/conditioner to be too sensitive, as happens in the case for Monster. Some Monster products are either defective or too sensitive. When a satellite receiver changes backfeed voltage, the power unit detects this change in potential and attempts to compensate. When you check backfeed voltage while plugged into a correct source, a meter will typically read a steady voltage, either 13 or 18 volts, switching between the two with a "standard" cadence or rhythm.

Check the same receiver on one of the offending Monster power supplies and you will see it switching back and forth but it doesn't quite reach either value and it is not steady. It appears as if the two are fighting.

The other way is due to simple voltage and polarity fluctuations.

IDEALLY, digital is all or nothing. In REALITY, this isn't true. Voltage fluctuations and changes in polarity can and will cause errors in 1's and 0's, causing them to be incorrectly decoded.

In electronics, polarity doesn't seem to mean much except when it comes to digital equipment. With Directv receivers, one thing that they correctly taught (IMO) was that when hooking up a phone line that you should check that the polarity is correct. Polarity of a phone line does affect the operation of digital receivers.

And when checking the polarity of the average phone line, it's about 50% chance that it's hooked up correctly. As I understand it, the phone companies dont worry much about polarity anymore.

 

[Andrewwski]

Most "surge protectors" aren't good for anything other than adding outlets anyway. That $10 one you get at Home Depot isn't likely to save your equipment in the case of a real surge.

Monster ones cost more but aren't that good either. I've heard of them melting and exploding when they get too much of an overvoltage - maybe they protect the equipment, but when the house burns down I don't think that will matter anyway.

Definitely get something of a good quality like Panamax. They are awesome.

 

[whatchel1]

Pulse voltage & Monster

a meter will typically read a steady voltage, either 13 or 18 volts, switching between the two

Have you tested it on a scope to see if it's really a peak pulse then a fast roll off? The pulse is a peak usually a bit over the correct voltage. I've seen this with cheap UPS's and that will look a lot like a digital pulse to some equipment.

Worked for Magnolia Hi-Fi years ago and Monster was the constant joke with installers. They have a 500% mark up and the sales people just love to add "monster" anything to a sale. It is just hi profit margin add ons. Not sure monster does much of anything except get it labeled with their name and sell it as "superior".

 

[glen242]

I have used an APC power conditioner, for over 2 years, without a problem. It has a buck/boost feature for low or high voltage.

 

[Awohar]

With Directv receivers, one thing that they correctly taught (IMO) was that when hooking up a phone line that you should check that the polarity is correct. Polarity of a phone line does affect the operation of digital receivers.

And when checking the polarity of the average phone line, it's about 50% chance that it's hooked up correctly. As I understand it, the phone companies dont worry much about polarity anymore.

"Tip Reverse" is the condition you are referring to. Its basically when the tip (green) and the ring (red) are reversed. Doesn't matter so much now because most phones can accept it and many phone companies can actually reverse a "tip reverse" condition at their central office. Many satellite receivers can't deal with "tip reverse" conditions and will detect no phone line connection. I suspect it has to do with the fact that satellite receivers properly installed are also grounded at the satellite ground block and often through a chassis ground with a 3-prong power cord. This could mean the ring voltage and carrier voltage can be routed to ground via the chassis of the receiver in a "tip reverse" condition. I have seen many situations where 48vdc was present on the chassis of a receiver after unhooking the sat and power cables from a receiver and checking with a multimeter. Those same installs had the dc line voltage from the telephone company coming down the green (tip) wire.

 

[highdefjeff]

Have you tested it on a scope to see if it's really a peak pulse then a fast roll off? The pulse is a peak usually a bit over the correct voltage. I've seen this with cheap UPS's and that will look a lot like a digital pulse to some equipment.

Worked for Magnolia Hi-Fi years ago and Monster was the constant joke with installers. They have a 500% mark up and the sales people just love to add "monster" anything to a sale. It is just hi profit margin add ons. Not sure monster does much of anything except get it labeled with their name and sell it as "superior".

No, I haven't. I don't have a scope. It used the dual analog meter. It looked like the receiver was fighting to get to either voltage but was stopped from reaching either one. Instead of a steady tone and reading, it never got a stable. It went up toward 18 then "kept trying". The needle was "fighting" or bouncing - never stable. Same way switching back to 13v.

(And yes, avoid Monster products! Way too expensive AND, some are the reason for a service call.)

 

[whatchel1]

Peak generated voltage

No, I haven't. I don't have a scope. It used the dual analog meter. It looked like the receiver was fighting to get to either voltage but was stopped from reaching either one. Instead of a steady tone and reading, it never got a stable. It went up toward 18 then "kept trying". The needle was "fighting" or bouncing - never stable. Same way switching back to 13v.

(And yes, avoid Monster products! Way too expensive AND, some are the reason for a service call.)

That sounds just like what I was describing that it is generating a peak of the right voltage but drops off fast after. An Analog meter will not be able to act fast enough to see the peak voltage just an average.

 

[kshaw]

If you want to use the built in homeplug feature then you can't use a surge protector because you need to plug directly into a wall plug. But you can use a surge or UPS and connect to your home network with the RJ4 plug on the back to the receiver.

I am not sure that this is correct. I had a recent problem getting a Netgear 103 at the router to connect to another Netgear powerline 103. Netgear has a utility software which you can install on one of the computers on your network and it (can be downloaded from their support site) displays all the homeplug devices (including the Dish receivers) on your network. I found that one of the adapters was not showing up and found that it was plugged into a surge protector. I bypassed the surge protector and it immediately showed up.

 

[navychop]

Personally I think a DVR needs an UPS and I live without DISHCOMM.

Absolutely. I use an expensive high quality APC unit meant for AV use (supports deep bass) that my entire HT system goes thru. Bonus money one year.

And all my receivers are plugged into both ethernet and phone.

 

[Foxbat]

I was surprised when my new ViP 622 (which is plugged into an APC UPS) showed up on my Sling HomePlug scan. The old one didn't show up, so I'm at a loss at the change in behavior. I use the RJ45 Ethernet port in the back, too, since the DishComm didn't work before. Phone, too, for Caller ID.