Widescreen programs on SD channels

[TheKrell]

Why oh why can't Dish (and others such as my local PBS station) transmit widescreen programs on SD channels in widescreen format? Is there any STB that can't present it properly, rather than picture-framing it?

 

[Chris Leer]

Just press the format button it will give you options how you want it to look like normal or stretch so you don't get the picture frame look.

 

[Jim S.]

But then it would be stretched, and lose resolution. I assume that TheKrell was asking about transmitting them with the proper number of pixels horizontally to fill the screen and keep the correct aspect ratio. Since, as a Dish customer, you've never seen such a thing, here's what I'm talking about:



That's from Eutelsat 113W. 720 pixels by 480 pixels, NO black bars.

I think the reason PBS is doing it is so people who still have 4:3 TVs don't lose the sides of the picture. But what should be done is to transmit the full resolution, and let the STB letterbox it if necessary.

 

[larrykenney]

There are several instances where the aspect ratio of a program is not correct, especially on some of the local station sub-channels. Programs that should be 16:9 are shrunk to 4:3 - making everyone skinny - or they're letterboxed, and vice versa shows that should be 4:3 are stretched to 16:9. Is it too much to think that the stations should send out the programming in the correct aspect ratio?

As Jim S said, I think the letterboxing is used so that people with old 4:3 TVs get the full picture.

Larry

 

[sam_gordon]

You need to track down whether the problem is with the local station or with Dish, and let the appropriate one know the picture looks bad.

A 16x9 picture gets letterboxed to fit in a 4x3 screen.
A 4x3 picture gets "side bars" to fit in a 16x9 screen.
If you letterbox a 16x9 picture to fit it for a 4x3 screen, then add side bars for that to fit into a 16x9 screen = "postage stamp".

 

[Hall]

I'm going to take some "screen" shots of programming that a couple of sub-channels are broadcasting. Just reading sam_gordon's post above, the ones I'm referring to might fit in the "postage stamp" category. The picture is very narrow, but full height. It's almost as if the screen is divided in three equal columns: black bar, picture, black bar.

 

[TheKrell]

No, this is not just a Dish issue as I mentioned in my OP.

Yes, I could use the * button to fix it. But as Jim intimated above, the zoomed SD picture (when delivered by satellite) looks like hell. I have used that on my local OTA subchannels, and they still look acceptable when zoomed. But satellite? Blech! The other issue with using the format button is that the receiver only remembers two settings: one for SD channels and one for HD channels. So, if we leave it zoomed in (as my family members are wont to do), then normal 4:3 programs are chopped off in both directions. If you know what is going on, then that's easily remedied. But this is beyond the ken of my family members.

Sam, I prefer the term "picture framed" to "postage stamp", because "picture framed" is more evokative. But I do agree that it can be rather small on some TVs.

I think the reason PBS is doing it is so people who still have 4:3 TVs don't lose the sides of the picture. But what should be done is to transmit the full resolution, and let the STB letterbox it if necessary.

And indeed the local rep at my PBS station said as much, despite the fact that this makes no sense whatsoever. What 4:3 TV demodulates ATSC? If there are such things, their numbers must be vanishingly small.

What most of the old die-hard 4:3 TV users (and my oldest friend in town is one of these) do is to use a free converter box. A widescreen SD picture is one of the ATSC modes and has been from the beginning. There are no converter boxes that can't handle it. So why not do the right thing on local OTA SD subchannels as well as satellite-delivered SD channels?

The current way of picture-framing SD channels on widescreen HDTVs makes no sense. It is perverse. It's been going on for years.

 

[osu1991]

Movies and Grit do it right, although I have seen a lot stretched stuff on Grit. Our local CW/CBS stations do it right for their subchannels. KOTV has the CW as a subchannel for the northern part of the DMA where the CW towers don't reach reliably and they also have a 24/7 loop of the newscasts. They are both 16x9 SD. Then the actual CW station KQCW has thisTv as a subchannel that is 16x9 SD but thisTv letterboxes all their content, so it is still picture framed. Ion subchannels and PBS Create are all picture framed and look terrible when zoomed. KJRH has the ability to do it right, but only does it when they move NBC programming to the LWN subchannel. LWN although it is going away this month, has the sides chopped off every show and they even do it on their own newscasts that are repeated on LWN at noon, taking the center cut.

 

[Hall]

No, this is not just a Dish issue as I mentioned in my OP.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest it was.

 

[dare2be]

The worst I've seen is on 188 - UP

Growing Pains (appropriate title to be used for this example) is 4x3 content which is stretched into a 16x9 window (or truncated top and bottom), and then sent letterboxed into a 4x3 transmission. Talk about double-whammy perturbations.

 

[harshness]

But then it would be stretched, and lose resolution.

The amount of picture information doesn't change. Much depends on your scaling hardware.

The other issue is that the content providers aren't always consistent about how they deliver the 4:3 content. Sometimes it is delivered with bars on the sides (where you wouldn't want to zoom it) and other times it is fully boxed (where you might want to zoom it).

Active Format Description may not be consistently supported amongst the various content providers and it is dangerous to assume that if a provider delivers one program a particular way that it will be consistent in delivering all programming in the same way. WFN seems to go back and forth between pillar boxing and zoom boxing. I was watching a movie the other night on one of the premium plexes that opened up as letterboxed 2.35:1 for the titles and then shifted to 16:9 when the main movie got started. Obviously this is only a big issue for those with 2.35:1 TVs but the principle is the same.

 

[TheKrell]

The amount of picture information doesn't change.

Not true! When an SD channel letterboxes their widescreen program, they are broadcasting black (or sometimes grey) top and bottom bars, and those bars subtracts from the picture information. In my experience, zooming in on an OTA subchannel results in an acceptable picture. But zooming in on a Dish-delivered SD channel results in a truly crappy picture.

 

[harshness]

But zooming in on a Dish-delivered SD channel results in a truly crappy picture.

Your local channel may deliver a 600x450
image (or who knows what) while DISH is only delivering 400x320 or similar so there is going to be a difference in reproduction. If you zoom in on it you will see a difference between OTA and DISH but that difference was there all along.

The issue is that it would be difficult for DISH to say that there won't be content interspersed (if only commercials) allowing them to center-cut the content and not waste a lot of their pixels on the letterbox regions.