Wiring question

[Andrewwski]

Then you don't know much. That is unless you are taking the term "burn out" literally to mean some sort of thermodynamic destruction of the cable. Perhaps I should be more literal. It ceases functioning as a medium for carrying signal due to it's specifications being exceeded significantly and continuously.

And so what do you propse happens to the cable? Does it somehow gain a higher electrical resistance? Are you proposing that somehow the properties of the copper are changing? I don't think so.

And no, I won't replace the RG59, because this so-called "burn out" won't happen. But I won't call Dish. The only reason I had them out in the first place is they wouldn't let me install it myself. Which I've done many times with DirecTV.

If you can give me some actual explanations and hard evidence as to what this "burn out" is, I'll listen.

 

[Jared Twomey]

But trust me, I know enough to tell you that cables do not burn out. Other problems may occur but the RG59 won't burn out.

I have been installing for a about 5 years now, and in that time, have seen plenty of sections on 59 that has "burned out".
Do you understand electronics at all?

You want to know how this is going to happen, when it does...

Since you are using DPP... you will start losing the higher freq's that the 59 can't pass well. You will start noticing drop out on tuner 2. Eventually it will cause enough problem, you'll get annoyed and replace it
If you were running DP, I would tell you that you would start losing just the channels on the even transponders.

And you assume that since it works now, it will always work. Wrong. For instance, 59 is not rated to carry the voltage and amperage that DP and DPP uses. So, because of more resistance because of the smaller wire (see OHM's law), the wire can and probably will, heat up. Which COULD cause it to expand and make any imperfections in the wire show up. Or if there is a small crack in the copper, could cause it to pull apart when it gets hot, thus making you lose signal.

 

[dishcomm]

I have been installing for a about 5 years now, and in that time, have seen plenty of sections on 59 that has "burned out".
Do you understand electronics at all?

You want to know how this is going to happen, when it does...

Since you are using DPP... you will start losing the higher freq's that the 59 can't pass well. You will start noticing drop out on tuner 2. Eventually it will cause enough problem, you'll get annoyed and replace it
If you were running DP, I would tell you that you would start losing just the channels on the even transponders.

And you assume that since it works now, it will always work. Wrong. For instance, 59 is not rated to carry the voltage and amperage that DP and DPP uses. So, because of more resistance because of the smaller wire (see OHM's law), the wire can and probably will, heat up. Which COULD cause it to expand and make any imperfections in the wire show up. Or if there is a small crack in the copper, could cause it to pull apart when it gets hot, thus making you lose signal.

I guess Flushing, NY isn't the only site of a tennis match.....

 

[Andrewwski]

I have been installing for a about 5 years now, and in that time, have seen plenty of sections on 59 that has "burned out".
Do you understand electronics at all?

Yes. What kind of electronics would you like to talk about? Home theater? Or perhaps microcontrollers and circuit design? Or everything in between?

You want to know how this is going to happen, when it does...

Since you are using DPP... you will start losing the higher freq's that the 59 can't pass well.

OK, tell me why I will start losing them. I know RG59 does not pass higher frequencies well. This effect is intensified with longer cable lengths. However, if the RG59 will not pass those frequencies in the future, it certainly won't pass them now.

You will start noticing drop out on tuner 2. Eventually it will cause enough problem, you'll get annoyed and replace it
If you were running DP, I would tell you that you would start losing just the channels on the even transponders.

OK, I'll let you know [when] that happens.

And you assume that since it works now, it will always work.

Yes.

Wrong. For instance, 59 is not rated to carry the voltage and amperage that DP and DPP uses.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Do you have numbers as to what the voltage and amperage that is run through these cables? I'd imagine there is not much current running through at all, and definitely NOT enough to cause problems. If it pleases you I'll grab the multimeter tomorrow morning and tell you exactly what the voltage being sent and the amperage being drawn is. Let me tell you, it won't be anything that RG59 can't handle. Coax cable is not made for carrying power either, rather it is for signal transfer. I'll look up the specs but the power is minimal and irrelevant. I though we were talking signal dropout, apparently you want to talk about melting cables.

So, because of more resistance because of the smaller wire (see OHM's law), the wire can and probably will, heat up.

Right, and as I said above, that is insignificant. The amount of power actually drawn is not important to this situation. If there was THAT MUCH power needed to the LNB, they'd make the LNB's powered directly.

Which COULD cause it to expand and make any imperfections in the wire show up. Or if there is a small crack in the copper, could cause it to pull apart when it gets hot, thus making you lose signal.

Right, and that's again implying thermodynamic heating. Which I swear another user here just told me is not what we're talking about. That will not happen.

What you're trying to base your argument on is actual burning up of the wire. This is the biggest BS I've ever heard. It's on the lines of the "plasma refills" that some guys at Best Buy used to talk about.

The issues encountered with RG59 use occur when the higher frequencies are dropped out by the cable. Which will either occur or it won't. For shorter runs, this is less of an issue than for longer runs. Yes, RG59 doesn't handle higher frequencies as well. But if it works now, it'll always work.

 

[dishcomm]

Yes. What kind of electronics would you like to talk about? Home theater? Or perhaps microcontrollers and circuit design? Or everything in between?



OK, tell me why I will start losing them. I know RG59 does not pass higher frequencies well. This effect is intensified with longer cable lengths. However, if the RG59 will not pass those frequencies in the future, it certainly won't pass them now.



OK, I'll let you know [when] that happens.



Yes.



OK, now we're getting somewhere. Do you have numbers as to what the voltage and amperage that is run through these cables? I'd imagine there is not much current running through at all, and definitely NOT enough to cause problems. If it pleases you I'll grab the multimeter tomorrow morning and tell you exactly what the voltage being sent and the amperage being drawn is. Let me tell you, it won't be anything that RG59 can't handle. Coax cable is not made for carrying power either, rather it is for signal transfer. I'll look up the specs but the power is minimal and irrelevant. I though we were talking signal dropout, apparently you want to talk about melting cables.



Right, and as I said above, that is insignificant. The amount of power actually drawn is not important to this situation. If there was THAT MUCH power needed to the LNB, they'd make the LNB's powered directly.



Right, and that's again implying thermodynamic heating. Which I swear another user here just told me is not what we're talking about. That will not happen.

What you're trying to base your argument on is actual burning up of the wire. This is the biggest BS I've ever heard. It's on the lines of the "plasma refills" that some guys at Best Buy used to talk about.

The issues encountered with RG59 use occur when the higher frequencies are dropped out by the cable. Which will either occur or it won't. For shorter runs, this is less of an issue than for longer runs. Yes, RG59 doesn't handle higher frequencies as well. But if it works now, it'll always work.

Great rally on that point fellas!...16 shots back and forth over the net!
Lookm, all kidding aside.Ypou both have good pints and make striong argumanets for and against the use of 59 in this application...As an installer I am required to go by Dish specs..That means no 59
If sub wishes to do the install themsleves, that's fine..If the system fails and the customer asks Dish to have someone come to fix the problem, the wiring will become a big issue. A good conscientious tech wil tell that customer immdiately that the wiring will have to be relaced with rg-6..

 

[ChrisFix]

A good conscientious tech wil tell that customer immdiately that the wiring will have to be relaced with rg-6..

What's your opinion on using RG-6 1000Mhz swept - which is what my house is fully wired with...home runs to every room. Is it usable for a VIP722 for being diplexed to two tuners and backfeed?

 

[dishcomm]

What's your opinion on using RG-6 1000Mhz swept - which is what my house is fully wired with...home runs to every room. Is it usable for a VIP722 for being diplexed to two tuners and backfeed?

It is highly recommended that rg-6 shopuld be rated at 2150 mhz or higher for optimum perforamnce...I have in cases where re wiring a house would be a major and expensive project, used the existing 1k cable with no issues.
What style is your home?..one or two stories? Basement, crawlspace or slab?..
To be blunt, 1k mhz rg-6 cable is just RG-59 with a little more dilectric and a heavier guage conductor.

 

[ChrisFix]

It is highly recommended that rg-6 shopuld be rated at 2150 mhz or higher for optimum perforamnce...I have in cases where re wiring a house would be a major and expensive project, used the existing 1k cable with no issues.
What style is your home?..one or two stories? Basement, crawlspace or slab?..
To be blunt, 1k mhz rg-6 cable is just RG-59 with a little more dilectric and a heavier guage conductor.

Thanks. House is two story with both attic and basement...so access to 1st and 2nd is pretty good.

 

[dishcomm]

Thanks. House is two story with both attic and basement...so access to 1st and 2nd is pretty good.

You're in great shape..To be safe, I would insist the tech install new cabling..In the long run you'll be better off...If he tries to talk you out of it, do this..Ask him to wait. Go to another room and call Dish. Ask the CSR who the instal company is on your job..Get them on the phione and speak to the tech's supervisior...Explain the situation..Trust me, you'll get the new cabling...If it's a Dish tech, call his office and do the same as above.
Wiring your house shopuld be realtively easy..Especially if your furnace is in the basement...If it is , there will be a chase that goes into the attic...That's provided your heating system is forced air.

 

[Andrewwski]

I think RG6 swept test to 1000 mhz will carry those frequnecies fine. There's not much of a difference between the two...just what they test them to. But apparently my analysis doesn't count.

Try it...if it works, it works, if not replace it. There is no such thing as this magical "burn-out."

 

[Roadwarrior]

Yeah. And guess what? The installer was an idiot for letting you talk him into connecting DPP to RG-59. You'll likely have it burn out within a matter of months, then you'll be calling dish back up to whine that your system is not working. there's a reason we don't use RG-59 for anything except backfeeds. It doesn't handle the frequency and the voltage. RG-59 is rated at maximum 1000 MHz. A tech who gets caught using RG-59 on an install will fail the quality inspection, and the QAS will end up having to re-run that cable with the right kind. And believe me, that makes him very grumpy. So, technically, you can't use RG-59.

You got that right. You know contractors in my area are still wiring
new houses with 59? One line to the attic, and splitters galore!
Is there not some kind of building code for this yet?

 

[Tyralak]

I think RG6 swept test to 1000 mhz will carry those frequnecies fine. There's not much of a difference between the two...just what they test them to. But apparently my analysis doesn't count.

Try it...if it works, it works, if not replace it. There is no such thing as this magical "burn-out."

You are a complete and utter moron. I've been doing this for nearly 5 years and at least once a week I go to trouble calls where 59 was used in a DPP system. It's always the same story. "It was working fine when they installed it, then I started losing channels, now it just says searching for satellite signal all the time." I look behind the receiver. RG-59. I connect my super sat buddy to the line. No communication with the LNBF. I replace the cable run, and what do you know, it works great now. You're probably the same kind of ignoramus who will argue that I really can use a splitter to connect multiple boxes to a single cable run and we're just trying to sell you a useless switch to make more money.

 

[Tyralak]

You got that right. You know contractors in my area are still wiring
new houses with 59? One line to the attic, and splitters galore!
Is there not some kind of building code for this yet?

I thought it was building code. That surprises the heck out of me. As far as I understood the code was RG-6, and home runs to the panel. maybe that's just CA.

 

[wonko]

Good grief. Cables do not "burn out." Especially not at the voltages/amperages that an LNB uses. They will fail, however, and there are a couple of reasons I can think of that RG-59 might fail more often than RG-6:
1. Age - I'm sure people are re-using CATV wiring that's been there for 30+ years.
2. Quality - I know a lot of RG-59 isn't as well constructed as RG-6, and is more easily broken by yanking it around, tight bends, etc.

My first Dish installation (10 years ago) used quite a bit of RG-59 with no problems for several years. However, with the DPP frequency requirements, I don't think it would be as successful today.

 

[Andrewwski]

You are a complete and utter moron.

Oh, look who's talking.

I've been doing this for nearly 5 years and at least once a week I go to trouble calls where 59 was used in a DPP system. It's always the same story. "It was working fine when they installed it, then I started losing channels, now it just says searching for satellite signal all the time." I look behind the receiver. RG-59. I connect my super sat buddy to the line. No communication with the LNBF. I replace the cable run, and what do you know, it works great now.

I'm not denying that this happens. But did you ever think of reterminating the cables? Checking for strains and protrusions? Check for corrosion? This could happen with RG6 too.

You're probably the same kind of ignoramus who will argue that I really can use a splitter to connect multiple boxes to a single cable run and we're just trying to sell you a useless switch to make more money.

I don't appreciate those comments. I fully understand, probably better than you do, why a splitter will not work. You're probably one of the guys that knows that it won't work but can't tell me why.

Wonko has nailed it on the head. RG59 is generally weaker and older. Hence more failures. But if it worked at one time, it'll work now, provided there's no additional problems in the wire. Which could happen with RG6 too, but for the reasons provided its not as common.

The only, and I repeat only, technical reason RG59 isn't as ideal as RG6 is it tends to have a higher db loss on higher frequencies, which is more clearly pronounced on longer cable runs. For short cable runs, the difference is barely noticable, but over a longer distance, there may be too much loss for the signal to pass correctly. That is why RG59 isn't reccomended - over long runs, it won't pass the high freqencies well.

Thank you Wonko, you're the first person that actually understands this stuff.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Ok, I'm not going to call anybody a moron. I will have to admit that there have been a few cases I've really had no choice but to use the existing house wiring(which happened to be 59), either because the customer didn't want me in the attic, or the tv's were sitting on an exterior wall and the home cable was NAILED to the stud, preventing a pull thru(oh yeah, I don't do exterior wall fishes, did I mention that?) or it was an apartment install and the landlords/owners of the place prohibited any new wiring ran. 99% of the time it did work at the time of install, but 70% of the time, we're back out there replacing lnbs, or receivers that just go bad for seemingly no reason. These jobs seem to be nothing but a constant hassle for us.(in these instances, I do at least replace all the connectors and any kind of barrel/groundblock/wall plate that's not 3 gig) If I knew exactly what was going on inside all of this electronic gadgetry that actually caused it to fail, I would probably be making more money right now.

So, it's in my best interest to do whatever I can to replace the 59 with 6, at least to the box.

Oh yeah, I've noticed more problems with the dual tuners and 59 than with single tuners. Legacy eq was never an issue, I'll bet you could feed those things with ground wire.

 

[JamesJ]

hey guys lets watch the personal attacks, its not needed, thanks.

 

[Furbox]

Well as someone who has been in the TV repair, antenna and satellite installation and rf distribution business since 1974(33 years), I can honestly say I have NEVER seen an RG59 cable 'burn out' due to exceeding it's specs under normal conditions. Of course lightning doesn't count in this discussion. DSS and Dishnet receivers are very limited in the amount of current they can put out. I have never seen any working LNB setup that draws more than 1000 milliamps. Even if the LNB shorts which could theoretically cause infinite current to flow, most receivers are not capable of putting out much more than 500 milliamps. All DSS and Dish receivers put out 18 volts and 13 volts depending on polarity. BUDs use 21 volts for LNB power.
Exceeding it's tested frequency will definitely not damage or wear out a cable. The cable will only pass what it can. You cannot 'force' it to pass anymore(at least not with the ammount of rf power coming out of an LNB).

 

[Roadwarrior]

The cable burning out isn't the problem. The problem is the receivers and lnbs 'burning out' because of the cable. I can replace a receiver on a job wired with 59, and it will work fine for a few months. But sooner or later, that box is gonna have to be replaced again. It's almost as if it has to work twice as hard.

I can't explain it any better than that. All I can do is narrow it down. When every piece of eq has been replaced on a job, and the only remaining factor is the cable, I'm gonna have to say it's the cable that's causing the problems.

 

[Andrewwski]

Uh-huh. Sure. Whatever you like.

I could understand the receivers burning out if you were trying to power a DPP44 with them or something, which isn't the correct way anyway, but the amount of power we're talking about here is so minimal it doesn't matter. The only effect would be on signal.

I'm going to say its something else causing the problem.