Diplexor must be installed because of powered antenna? (Depends on antenna model)

[sat4me]

All local stations are mapped correctly on the box. The one I can't receive is located on the same mountain top as the others, 14 degrees and 16 miles away. I think that if I can get the others, I should get that one also. I can also receive two stations from 264 degrees at 10 miles away. The one I can't get is CBS. All the others, PBS, ABC,NBC,Fox,UPN come in fine.

The installer admitted that he didn't know much about OTA. He did a great job on the dish though.

Thanks for your input and advise.

Sure thing.
Ok your probably ok. Try turning off your box tonight and let the unit get a refresh update on the program code. Sometimes this will allow the STB 8vsb to sinc-up. If that doesn't do it then for now wait for the autoscanning feature coming in a few weeks that will hopefully correct everyones OTA issues like this.
Today I lost one of my OTA mapped channels that has worked since day one and nothing changed in my set-up, so these MOTO/VOOM boxes still appear to not be completely stable yet, in my opinion.

 

[Ilya]

I have a simalar situation going on. I had the installer run two lines with no diplexer and now find out I have no signal with the winegaurd.
Could I try hooking the coaxial up using the cable amplifier left behind in my attic by my old cable provider?

I guess you can just buy the power supply (say directly from winegard) and get power from it istead of the diplexer. Right?

I personally have Stealth and I insisted on a separate cable run. The installer didn't charge me anything extra and the power supply (power inserter) was included. If I were getting a Winegard today, I would still insist on a separate cable, even if I had to pay extra for it and for the power supply. I know, it's arguable to which extent the diplexer degrades the signal, but one thing for sure: it does! It certainly doesn't improve the signal
I really don't see why I should combine the cables just to save a few bucks on a power supply...

 

[sat4me]

I have a simalar situation going on. I had the installer run two lines with no diplexer and now find out I have no signal with the winegaurd.
Could I try hooking the coaxial up using the cable amplifier left behind in my attic by my old cable provider?

Probably not. The old amp in your attic MAY be a push-pull distribution amp and is not designed to provide the correct voltage to the Sensar. If you are so compelled, order the correct one from a Winegard dealer. I have no idea where to send you to look, sorry.

Everyone please stop forcing these installers to run dual cables, they all don't know you MUST use the diplexer to receive the OTA signal!
Help spread the word on this, it's only going to cause pain for everyone being installed now with the Sensar antennas. These things work great when connected correctly.

 

[Ilya]

... the receiver provides 12 to 18 volts for LNB switching.

Is this for polarity changing? Like switching from Left_Horiz polarity to Right_Ve?

 

[sat4me]

Is this for polarity changing? Like switching from Left_Horiz polarity to Right_Ve?

Yes you are correct. The LNB needs to be switched by the STB for L/R polarity. Odd transponders and even transponders send different circular "paths" from the bird. the LNB has to switch to what ever transponder group is being required by the STB(s). That's also why they call a multiswitch a multiswitch, it's job is to regulate the multiple voltage requirement of multiple STB's and allow the LNB to "see" the L/R polarities.

Good question!

 

[Ilya]

Yes you are correct. The LNB needs to be switched by the STB for L/R polarity. Odd transponders and even transponders send different circular "paths" from the bird. the LNB has to switch to what ever transponder group is being required by the STB(s). That's also why they call a multiswitch a multiswitch, it's job is to regulate the multiple voltage requirement of multiple STB's and allow the LNB to "see" the L/R polarities.

Good question!

So if that signal to switch the polarity doesn't make it to the LNB (due to bad multiswitch, wrong wiring of the diplexer, etc.) people end up watcing BravoHD on channel 261 instead of StarzHD...

 

[sat4me]

I guess you can just buy the power supply (say directly from winegard) and get power from it istead of the diplexer. Right?

I personally have Stealth and I insisted on a separate cable run. The installer didn't charge me anything extra and the power supply (power inserter) was included. If I were getting a Winegard today, I would still insist on a separate cable, even if I had to pay extra for it and for the power supply. I know, it's arguable to which extent the diplexer degrades the signal, but one thing for sure: it does! It certainly doesn't improve the signal
I really don't see why I should combine the cables just to save a few bucks on a power supply...

Did you ever think you will have the same "loss" from using a cheap power inserter? Hello, why do you think the diplexer that is engineered to work with this application is worse than a cheap power inserter?
You need to show me some real proof, not "hearsay" that these diplexers today are causing problems.
Sorry if my "tone" is "amped" up here, I just get "amped" by novice "know-it-alls", who think they understand this stuff better than a seasoned pro or design engineer. My appologies if you are and you have better proof than I do other than real life installations over 5,000...

 

[sat4me]

So if that signal to switch the polarity doesn't make it to the LNB (due to bad multiswitch, wrong wiring of the diplexer, etc.) people end up watcing BravoHD on channel 261 instead of StarzHD...

That doesn't happen. Multiswitches have nothing to do with what channel mix-up appears on your STB. That's a software issue if you are having that problem.
If a multiswitch fails, you will usually only have access to either odd or even transponders, and their coresponding channels. Diplexers don't/can't cause any problems with voltage switching, so don't go there with diplexers as a cause for a mixed-up channel display.

Why do you and others want to 'blame" diplexers for problems that for the most part MAY NOT be diplexer related?

 

[Ilya]

Did you ever think you will have the same "loss" from using a cheap power inserter?

Why are you mixing those two things together? You are inserting power in any case: either within the diplexer or with the power supply. So, power insertion and associated signal loss (if there is any) is unavoidable. Diplexing, on the other hand is a completely separate thing and is definitely avoidable. Why do I need to combine two signals in one and then split them, if I can easily avoid this?

... the diplexer that is engineered to work with this application ...

The diplexer is engineered to make installer's life easier, not to improve the picture quality or the signal strength!

You need to show me some real proof, not "hearsay" that these diplexers today are causing problems.

Do I? Hey, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else. All I said was that, if I were getting a Winegard today, I would still insist on a separate cable, even if I had to pay extra for it and for the power supply. That was my personal opinion, based on all I've read in this and other forums. I don't see any benefit in using diplexers. If you want to convince me otherwise, you need to show me some real proof!

 

[Ilya]

That doesn't happen. Multiswitches have nothing to do with what channel mix-up appears on your STB. That's a software issue...

Several members of this forum have proven otherwise.

If a multiswitch fails, you will usually only have access to either odd or even transponders, and their coresponding channels...

Exactly. For example, StarzHD and BravoHD+ channels share the same frequency but have different polarity. So, if the LNB fails to switch polarity you get one instead of the other, the way I understand it.

Diplexers don't/can't cause any problems with voltage switching.

If the diplexer is not passing the voltage to the LNB, the LNB will fail to switch polarity, right?

 

[vinnyv07]

Yes many of you have "talked" the installer into the second line, good for you.
vinnyv07, you were provided the Stealth antenna that was shipped with a power inserter at the time you were installed. That's not the case any longer.

VOOM supplies a totaly different antenna and combiner/diplexer.
The SENSAR is made by Winegard and is shipped without any power inserter and already has the amplifier-board installed/built in the antenna itself. It cannot be taken out and will not work without power by itself.
Yes, if you or the installer want to supply the power inserter separtely, go ahead. the installer does not have them to install with the installation and will charge additional if requested.

vinnyv07, I know you mean well, however, what happened during your install with your equipment is a totally different case today and in other locations.

I have two VOOM systems in different states, one in Colorado, is the Stealth with the ChannelMaster diplexer/combiner and ALL my OTA channels come in perfectly.
In California, the Stealth won't work due to where my home is there and I have NO OTA, because NO signal or LOS to the towers 50 miles away, totally blocked by terrain. Oh well, what's VOOM supposed to do about that? I guess I should have them "plow down" those hills so I can receive the signal they "promised" me. Ha !

Sorry sat4me...it was kind of late last night and my eyes must have been playing tricks on me...i didnt realize Voom wasnt using the Stealth anymore.

 

[smodak]

Install Tomorrow! Diplexer? Second Line? Please help me decide!

I have my install scheduled tomorrow. I am really confused about this diplexer / non diplexer issue. Anyone who really knows this stuff for sure?

 

[Ilya]

I have my install scheduled tomorrow. I am really confused about this diplexer / non diplexer issue. Anyone who really knows this stuff for sure?

smodak,
As you can see, it's a rather controversial issue. There are different opinions on this subject. I am afraid, you will have to decide for yourself. The truth is, that this decision is not very critical. If the installer knows what he is doing, it's going to work either way and the difference, if any, most likely will not be very significant. Just make sure everything works before you sign the papers and don't believe the installer if he says that your OTA channels will appear in a day or two...
Good luck!

 

[sat4me]

smodak,
As you can see, it's a rather controversial issue. There are different opinions on this subject. I am afraid, you will have to decide for yourself. The truth is, that this decision is not very critical. If the installer knows what he is doing, it's going to work either way and the difference, if any, most likely will not be very significant. Just make sure everything works before you sign the papers and don't believe the installer if he says that your OTA channels will appear in a day or two...
Good luck!

smodak, if you insist the installer run separate lines for your OTA, then you better run out before he arrives and purchase the correct power supply for the Sensar antenna.

Ilya, still don't get it do you. The new OTA that VOOM is shipping is the Sensar and does NOT include any power supply to power the built-in amp. The installer WILL NOT be able to provide OTA signal unless you purchase on you own and have the Winegard power supply ready to go for the installer. make sure if you go this direction you purchase the correct power supply. VOOM or the installer will NOT provide that part for you when the design is to use the diplexer that shares voltage from the STB.

Ilya, why are you insisting the choice is the new person getting installed?
It's not their choice. Did you have the choice when the company who built your car on how to build it, and with what parts from what supplier? Did you direct the person who made your microwave oven? My point is the Sensar OTA and VOOM work perfectly fine with the designed Winegard diplexer/combiner.

By the way, earlier I made a point that if you install a diplexer your line loss is approx 3 db. This is the same for the in-line power inserter, so what's the difference, or advantage to dual cable with a power inserter? If you have more than one STB then you'll still end up using a splitter with insertion loss as well. So far, I can prove myself. I'm not or has anyone said the diplexer is supposed to "improve" the OTA signal. The amplifier does that.
The advantage to the diplexer is you don't have to have 2 cables, 2 holes in your house. Diplexers are not designed to "make the installers life easier" Pulling a twin-RG6 doesn't take any more time than to pull a single RG6, so why have diplexers?
Simple, they work and eliminate an additional unnecessary cable and in the Sensar's case a power inserter that heats up, uses additional electrical energy and will and does fail more often then diplexers do.

 

[sat4me]

Several members of this forum have proven otherwise.

Exactly. For example, StarzHD and BravoHD+ channels share the same frequency but have different polarity. So, if the LNB fails to switch polarity you get one instead of the other, the way I understand it.
If the diplexer is not passing the voltage to the LNB, the LNB will fail to switch polarity, right?

The multiswitch cannot "mix" up the channel order. It's not possible, no matter what has been said anywhere. Polarity is not a factor as to how and what the channel number is or appears on screen in it's line-up. If the multiswitch fails, it almost always "locks" on a voltage side that allows only one voltage to pass, allowing the STB to only receive half of the transponders and only those channels assigned to those. Has nothing to do directly with any shared frequency of channels.
The diplexer is not a switching mechanism and won't cause this problem.
The LNB is most likely to cause this polarity lock problem, second a multiswitch.
Yes if the LNB fails or the switch fails or the diplexer fails or your TV breaks down or the batteries in the remote die, or the cables on the outside get chewed through by an animal, you can expect to be without TV until any one of those items are repaired or replaced.
Careful if you run over a nail in the road, it will cause a flat tire, but you still need to have tires on your car, if you get a flat then you will need to fix it. If your point is, "don't use diplexers because they can fail and you'll be without TV", you're right, it CAN happen, just as often, or unoften as anything else in the chain connected can fail. There are seemingly a few too many chicken littles on these forums.

Iyla, I respect your opinions, however, my opinion is you are basing yours not so much on any real truths other than what is said by non-professionals, for the most part, on these threads.

You would rather discredit me, with statements like, "others have proven this" Proven what, they can type a sentence of what may have happened to their system?
Check with the VOOM God, Wilt. Please, you apparently are with the satelliteguy's, verify his utmost opinion on this subject.

I have no gain than to explain what facts exist. I'm not some guy who had his VOOM system installed last month and knows all about satellite and how it all works because I handed the installer his 7/8 wrench he dropped on the ground or asked a few questions and read some interesting experiences on these forums. I'm a level 3 SBCA certifed installer, and have far more field experience than most posting here, over 18 years. Not to say I know everything, but I do know what I'm talking about here and now.

 

[Ferdy]

All local stations are mapped correctly on the box. The one I can't receive is located on the same mountain top as the others, 14 degrees and 16 miles away. I think that if I can get the others, I should get that one also. I can also receive two stations from 264 degrees at 10 miles away. The one I can't get is CBS. All the others, PBS, ABC,NBC,Fox,UPN come in fine.

The installer admitted that he didn't know much about OTA. He did a great job on the dish though.

Thanks for your input and advise.

You guys that are having trouble getting maybe one station to come in when you know that the broadcast antennas are located on/in the same location/mountaintop/whatever should tune to the station that's not coming in and check for signal strength in the system settings menu. Sometimes a strong carrier signal is there, but the moto box can't lock/sync to the signal. I had that problem with one of my locals, and after a million calls to the station, they finally changed their carrier signal by "un-stretching" it, then the VoOm box locked in on the signal, and everything is fine now. The station engineers couldn't figure out for the life of them why that made a difference to the moto box, because Samsung and other OTA boxes weren't having any trouble decoding the streched signal.

Hoping that the software update will clear up some of these idiosyncracies of the VoOm box---

 

[Ilya]

Ilya, still don't get it do you. The new OTA that VOOM is shipping is the Sensar and does NOT include any power supply to power the built-in amp.

Some installers might be able to sell the Winegard's power supply (some may even happen to have it in their vans). If not, I can always buy it elsewhere. No big deal.

It's not their choice. Did you have the choice when the company who built your car on how to build it, and with what parts from what supplier?

You'll be surprised how many people modify their cars, or replace manufacturer supplied audio/video cables for that matter
If it's my equipment and my house, it's definitely my choice what kind of wiring to use. And I am not asking the installer to do anything "nonstandard" here. We are talking about a standard setup designed and recommended by Vinegard for this very type of antenna. The only question is whether I am paying for this or VOOM. Stating that there is no choice ("No if's or but's") is simply misleading.

By the way, earlier I made a point that if you install a diplexer your line loss is approx 3 db. This is the same for the in-line power inserter.

I find it hard to believe that two diplexers cause exactly the same signal loss as a single power inserter, but I'll take you word for this...

The advantage to the diplexer is you don't have to have 2 cables, 2 holes in your house ... they work and eliminate an additional unnecessary cable and in the Sensar's case a power inserter that heats up, uses additional electrical energy and will and does fail more often then diplexers do.

These are all valid reasons, but for me, they are not worth a single OTA program interruption.

sat4me, Please don't take this personally. I do not question your expertise, and I do admire your passion about diplexers
But I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Sure, some will disagree with mine, I am not trying to convince anyone. I am actually surprised that such a minor issue is causing so many debates.

 

[Ilya]

The multiswitch cannot "mix" up the channel order. It's not possible, no matter what has been said anywhere. Polarity is not a factor as to how and what the channel number is or appears on screen in it's line-up.

You probably haven't read the thread that talks about this problem. I'll gladly continue this discussion and explain what I think is going on, but let's take it to a more appropriate thread, like this one.

Ironically, the only reason I mentioned this channel mix-up issue was because your comment about how the polarity is switched in the LNB only confirmed for me that the channel mix-up indeed can be caused by bad LNB, diplexer, multi-switch or improper wiring, what you believe to be a software issue

 

[smodak]

I got Installed!

It was a super smooth install. No problems at all! The installer did use the diplexer. I am getting all SAT & OTA channels I am supposed to receive.
In almost all respect the Voom Box is superior to Dish 811 which I had before. Its much more stable. There are only two aspects of 811, which I will miss
1. The HD PQ of Voom is definitely inferior to dish 811.
2. For locals, which send out 1080i signal (but pillarboxed), there is no way to strech and fill the screen (Dish 811 * button on the remote) for my 16:9 sony 34XBR910 TV.

 

[MarkP]

I have read this thread a couple of times. Let me know if I am correct on this. I had the installation today 06/27/2004 and when we hooked up to the antenna I bought from radio shack we didn't get a signal but when we hooked up to the winegaurd that was supplied we got a signal. So is this radio shack antenna causing this problem and if so is there anything I can do to correct this problem? They used a winegaurd diplexer in the install.