OTA/Wiring Question

[jpdubose]

Okay,

So I've been looking around to see if OTA is worth fooling with in my area. I'm pretty much in the middle of nowhere and according to antennaweb and tvfool, I'm fairly fringe on everything. I even built one of those homemade antennas to see what would happen and I was able to pick up a couple of stations. Before I go any further with it though, I had a few questions I was hoping someone could help me address.

My house was a spec house built by an independent contractor. As such, the wiring was installed with cable in mind and not satellite. There is only one cable running into the house from the outside. This cable goes into the attic where there was a splitter feeding each room in the house. Each drop in the house only has a single cable in it.

When I had DISH installed, I got a 1000.2. It connects to the cable running into the house. This hits what I'm guessing is a diplexer. One out goes to the main tv in the living room and the other goes to the mater bedroom (It's just my wife and I, the house is small, 3bed, and we just have the two tvs). In the living room is the 722. It has what I'm guessing is the matching diplexer and then a separator for the two tuner inputs. All in all, a pretty simple setup.

So this is where my questions begin. Is there any way I can combine an OTA signal from an antenna either outside or in the attic with the signal from the dish going across the single line going to my living room?

I'm thinking not, but I thought it'd be worth asking. And please don't reply with "just run another line to the living room". I would love to do that but the line is on an exterior wall. The house is on a slab, so I can't go underneath, I don't want to drill through my brick from the outside and from everything I've read, a wall-fish on an exterior wall is a bad idea if not nearly impossible due to the insulation.

I've attached three drawings. The first is of the current setup and the other two are what I'm wondering if will work, one with the antenna outside and the other with it in the attic. Each connecting line is a single coax run. I've marked the exterior wall in the living room as such. Also, I'm not sure if I'm right on what device is what so I labeled what I thought to be the diplexers "A" and "B" and the separator "C". Device "D" in the last two drawings is what I'm not sure about. Is there something that does this or is "D" just nothing more than a logical representation of what I would like to do?

Thanks ahead of time for all your help.

EDIT: I should probably also note that I'm not really interested in having the OTA signal in the bedroom. It's just an old SD tv that probably won't be upgraded any time soon. I'm really just looking for OTA in the living room right now.

 

[Liquidforce88]

You will combine the antenna outside with the satellite cable with a diplexor. Then seperate it back out in the attic with another diplexor. You can then just combine the tv2 and OTA with the splitters.

If you put the antenna in the attic you won't need the diplexors, but putting antennas in the attic have much less signal. You just want to make sure that your tv2 output is set to antenna output and it is a couple channels away from any station that you get off the antenna.

 

[msadvertising]

Put Your Antenna On The Roof

The higher, the better in a fringe area. You didn't say anything about HD, but you should get an extra long range UHF antenna, since that's where most of the Figital signals will be after the transition. If you're over 70 mils out, get an amplifier for it.

 

[jpdubose]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm about 50 to 60 miles away from most of the towers. To clarify, I'm looking to pick up the digital channels for local HD in the living room. Like I mentioned in the original post, I was able to pick up a few stations with a homemade antenna and that was with it sitting on my front porch.

Dave, the bedroom tv is SD so I'm not worried about having the antenna signal there, but it looks like your solution would get it there anyway. You answered my main question though. Now that I know that it can be done, it's just a matter of figuring out what exactly I want to do.

Thanks again.

 

[vegassatellite]

Dave, your diagram can be misunderstood. The attic splitter must have the port labeled INPUT connected to the line going the the HDTV. Otherwise he will face 35db isolation across the two OUTPUT ports. He won't be able to get antenna on TV2 using that configuration either. To do that, he would have to split the OTA feed and use a splitter as a combiner for each TV run. This means two splitters in the attic with a jump from one to the other. He will probably face attenuation issues so he will likely need an amp on the TV 2 OUT port of the receiver to jump all those splitters and diplexers. I see about 14 db loss just from your configuration and 3.5 more than that with mine.

 

[jpdubose]

So I took Dave's diagram and some of what I think i understood vegas to say and updated my second diagram. Let me know what's wrong with this one.

 

[vegassatellite]

That won't work. You'll need another diplexer up in the attic and also a splitter there to separate the TV2 feed from the antenna feed.

 

[jpdubose]

The attic splitter must have the port labeled INPUT connected to the line going the the HDTV.

That won't work. You'll need another diplexer up in the attic and also a splitter there to separate the TV2 feed from the antenna feed.

Okay, I know you guys are probably tired of dealing with this and me, but I updated the diagram again. Assuming my splitters are all drawn with input being the single line side, then is this what you're talking about? It's pretty much the same as dave's, just with the splitter in the attic turned so that the input is connected to the diplexer (3).

I may need to do some more reading about diplexers. I'm a little confused about what signal is where and when it's there.

I also added numbering to the labels in order to help the discussion.

 

[Liquidforce88]

Vegas I am not sure what you are saying. I have done the setup in my diagram several times. You will experience some loss of signal so an amp may be needed for the OTA, if signal is weak. TV2 never has any problem just use the lowest possible channel, closer to channel 21 the better.

This setup is no different than when you extend the TV2 antenna. Only difference is we are adding in the antenna from outside with another set of diplexors.

jpdubose,

Your last diagram is exactly as I have done this before.

 

[vegassatellite]

Vegas I am not sure what you are saying. I have done the setup in my diagram several times. You will experience some loss of signal so an amp may be needed for the OTA, if signal is weak. TV2 never has any problem just use the lowest possible channel, closer to channel 21 the better.

This setup is no different than when you extend the TV2 antenna. Only difference is we are adding in the antenna from outside with another set of diplexors.

jpdubose,

Your last diagram is exactly as I have done this before.

The diagram you submitted appears to show a splitter with an OTA feed inserted into an OUTPUT and then being fed out the other OUTPUT to the living room. I didn't take issue with your proposed solution, only to how the drawing represented it. Taken literally, it would look like an output to output path and splitters have typically 35 db of isolation across outputs.

I agree with the last diagram jp submitted. I have found that diplexers typically lose around 3db of signal and so the diagram shows an estimated 14 db of loss. He would do wise to amp the TV2 out signal about 5 db if he has problems with snowy pix.

As far as the channel for TV2, he needs to pick one that isn't broadcast in his area. If the OP will post his zip code, I can recommend a channel that is low in frequency and at least two channels away from any broadcast stations.

 

[jpdubose]

The diagram you submitted appears to show a splitter with an OTA feed inserted into an OUTPUT and then being fed out the other OUTPUT to the living room. I didn't take issue with your proposed solution, only to how the drawing represented it. Taken literally, it would look like an output to output path and splitters have typically 35 db of isolation across outputs.

I agree with the last diagram jp submitted. I have found that diplexers typically lose around 3db of signal and so the diagram shows an estimated 14 db of loss. He would do wise to amp the TV2 out signal about 5 db if he has problems with snowy pix.

As far as the channel for TV2, he needs to pick one that isn't broadcast in his area. If the OP will post his zip code, I can recommend a channel that is low in frequency and at least two channels away from any broadcast stations.

ZIP is 36420.

I don't think I'll have any problem finding a channel to send the TV2 output over. Anything in the 30's should do. Our fox station is at 20 and then there's independent stations at 25 and 48. I'm probably not going to get much. I'm thinking I'm probably only going to get a PBS (WDIQ, 2), NBC (WSFA, 12), CBS (WTVY, 4, Dothan) and the two independents that are in the area. The fox station (WCOV, 20) is supposed to be on the same tower as NBC (WSFA), but either they haven't got it going yet or they're not at full power because I've read on AVS where there are people 20 miles out of Montgomery that can't even pick it up. Due to the terrain to the north of me, I think I have a better shot at ABC out of Pensacola (WEAR, 3), but that'll take a rotar.

The only question I really have now is if I need to amp the TV2 signal, where do I need to place the amp? As it's coming out of the 722?

 

[Liquidforce88]

If you need an amp and I really doubt that you will, right after the receiver would be the best spot.

 

[vegassatellite]

This is what antennaweb shows for your ZIP:

2,3,4,5,8,10,11,12,14,20,55,67

The best channel will likely be 22 or 23 for your TV2. You have a lot of clear space.

Put the amp for TV 2 signal right at the receiver. You shouldn't need more than 5 to 10db gain. Select an amp that has a low level of noise. Don't get a RadioShack cheapy.

 

[otaota]

There is one channel in VHF right now (WDIQ) and there will be two VHF channels after the analog shutdown (WDIQ and WSFA). If these channels are important to you, then plan for hi-VHF reception on your antenna.

 

[otaota]

If you're looking for a clear channel, 29 will probably be better than 22-23. See the spectrum utilization graphs at the bottom of the attachments.



It doesn't seem necessary to diplex the signals at the dish/antenna and then un-diplex them in the attic. Why not just run the antenna cable into the attic and then diplex the signals before putting it on your home's wiring. You'll have two cables going from the roof into the attic, but this saves you two diplexers and any signal losses that they might cause.



I would recommend putting an amp like the CM 7777 near the antenna. If you have power available in your attic, you can put the power injector for this amp just before the splitter leading to the master bedroom. If you do not have power in the attic, then you can use a DC-blocking splitter (one port passes DC, the other blocks it) in the attic and stick the power injector in your master bedroom.

The boost from the mast mounted amp will ensure you get the best possible OTA signal throughout your network at any of the points where you'll be using that signal. It will overcome all the losses due to cables, splitters, and diplexers that lie "downstream" from the amp. No other amplification would be necessary within the network. You do not seem to be close enough to any transmitters to have any concerns about amp overload.

 

[jpdubose]

Thanks again for all the info guys. You've all been a big help. Now the hard part is going to be talking my wife into letting me put an antenna outside. I've mentioned it a few times and she's pretty resistant to the whole idea.

 

[markstahl]

This is a post I have been looking for as I have a somewhat similar situation with only one line coming to my main TV and the other going to my 2nd TV in the Bedroom. Both lines originate from a box outside my house where the cable line comes in from the street.

I have the same setup with the dish Sat1 and Sat2 being combined at the outside box and then separated at the 2 Tuner Receiver. Then the TV2 out and the Sat1/Sat2 single line being combined with a diplexor (behind the Main TV) and then separated at the outside box so that the TV2 signal is hooked into the line that goes into my bedroom. Use jpdubose's very first diagram, C is a combiner, A & B are Diplexors and right before A is a combiner from the 2 lines from the Dual LNB on the dish.
Now the difference is that I have a roof antenna with a line that drops to my Bedroom TV, but I want it for OTA DTV signals on my main TV (LCD). The way I read into the other posts, can I take two splitters and combine the TV2 and OTA antenna behind my Bedroom tv and then use another splitter behind my main TV to get them back out again? Is it that simple or am I missing something.