OTA Info in EPG

[Hall]

FCC PDF Link: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-228A1.pdf[/INDENT]

That's a 157-page document.... I have little to no interest in reading all of that or even scanning it. The PSIP mention that I did see pertains to the TV stations having to provide PSIP data.

You may also wish to read Dish's statement in regard to DTV transition and how the Commission did not support nor accept their position/posturing.

Are you referring to Dish and DirecTV asking for more time to transition to carrying the digital feeds instead of the analog feeds ? If so, as I recall, they "won" that battle.

 

[navychop]

Yep. Looks like there's a bit of confusion regarding who is required to do what.

 

[GaryPen]

How many people with 622/722 receivers use an antenna ? I still say the minority....

Consider this too: The new version of the 722 they announced (is it the 722s ?) DOES NOT INCLUDE AN OTA TUNER as standard. It will be optional. Know why ? I'll speculate to say that most people aren't using the OTA tuner that Dish pays to have in the receiver.

It is no doubt a minority. However, if you throw out some hypothetical numbers, let's say 500,000 622/722 users, and only 10% use OTA, that makes 50,000. And, 50,000 x $5 is a possible $250,000 of monthly revenue that Dish would potentially be throwing away. (It's probably higher, though, as I've seen reports indicating 1 million HD subs at Dish.)

As for the upcoming 722 replacement not having built-in OTA capability, that just further reinforces my point, as Dish is now removing the option of getting OTA, and will enjoy 100% of those subs adding LiL. And, for those that want OTA? They'll have to buy an add-on (making Dish more revenue), and most likely STILL having to sub to LiL to receive local info in the EPG.

 

[Derwin0]

As for the upcoming 722 replacement not having built-in OTA capability, that just further reinforces my point, as Dish is now removing the option of getting OTA, and will enjoy 100% of those subs adding LiL. And, for those that want OTA? They'll have to buy an add-on (making Dish more revenue), and most likely STILL having to sub to LiL to receive local info in the EPG.

Why not, after all Directv is already doing it. Charging $50 for the add-on to get OTA.

 

[FCom911]

That's a 157-page document.... I have little to no interest in reading all of that or even scanning it. The PSIP mention that I did see pertains to the TV stations having to provide PSIP data. Are you referring to Dish and DirecTV asking for more time to transition to carrying the digital feeds instead of the analog feeds ? If so, as I recall, they "won" that battle.

Simply put, PSIP content is not up for speculation nor debate... it's a noncompliance issue in regard to this matter.

There is an investigation underway to seek a resolution... Not much more to say on that, is there? Let's just wait and see how the issue is officially addressed.

Observation: To actually understand the topic of this string, one needs to read it in its entirety, otherwise one will run the risk of misunderstanding the issue(s) at hand. Many of us are jumping in without regard to the string, are far too impatient when it comes to reading all the contents within a post, while others are simply bent on speculation.

Regarding the previously sighted PDF, I was asked to present it. I did. I also provided the search criterium for you to seek the sightings w/in the document. If we have the skills to use this forum, we most certainly have the skills to use tools provided to us in our PDF Reader; to search specific content, information, and relevancy — whether we elect to exercise them, is strictly up to us.

Concerning the ViP722-S will or will not contain an OTA receiver isn't the issue here. Furthermore, Echostar and its STB Manufacturing Division supplies STBs for OTA, SAT, and CABLE on a global level, not just North America. Their market is international. Dish's market, on the other hand, is exclusively for US consumption as dictated by copyright laws. Two different ventures (hence, why the split of Dish Network and Echostar, recently) servicing a multitude potential options.

One may also understand, the modular aspect of the ViP722-S OTA tuner may be for functionality/portability. OTA tuners do malfunction or are found to be NOT operating at NOMINAL standards. It's far more easier to pull the malfunctioning tuner and replace if it is designed as a modular unit. And finally, what about foreign markets and their broadcast standards? Making the ViP722-S modular, you can facilitate a broader spectrum of clientele by maintaining a modular aspect to its construction; A design aspect that is actually a broader sense of sensibility...

If in the end the ViP722-S tuner is indeed intended as an upgrade option, it will have to operate within the parameters defined by the FCC; full PSIP content disclosure.

 

[GaryPen]

Why not, after all Directv is already doing it. Charging $50 for the add-on to get OTA.

I have no problem with that. (Although, I prefer less crap cluttering up my HT rack.) But, I still think it's BS to charge an extra $5 to get OTA program info in the EPG.

 

[Hall]

Simply put, PSIP content is not up for speculation nor debate... it's a noncompliance issue in regard to this matter.

There is an investigation underway to seek a resolution... Not much more to say on that, is there? Let's just wait and see how the issue is officially addressed.

Okay, if you say so....

Regarding the previously sighted PDF, I was asked to present it. I did. I also provided the search criterium for you to seek the sightings w/in the document. If we have the skills to use this forum, we most certainly have the skills to use tools provided to us in our PDF Reader...

Searching the PDF for your "search criterion" turns up ..... NOTHING. Does anyone else get a hit when searching for "ATSC PSIP (and/or) standard" ?

I'm perfectly capable of searching out and usually finding information, especially when it's a topic I care about. In this case, I don't though.... so I ain't trying much harder.

 

[FCom911]

Okay, if you say so....
Searching the PDF for your "search criterion" turns up ..... NOTHING. Does anyone else get a hit when searching for "ATSC PSIP (and/or) standard" ?

I'm perfectly capable of searching out and usually finding information, especially when it's a topic I care about. In this case, I don't though.... so I ain't trying much harder.

ATSC PSIP (or) PSIP Standard (or) PSIP

EDIT: hall, your attitude and tone is rude in regard to this matter and is not conducive to any type of contribution. It seems, at times, all you're interested in is controversy. You said it yourself, "...In this case, I don't though.... so I ain't trying much harder." So why peruse an issue you have little or no interest in; you receive some sort of pleasure using rude overtures?

"I'm perfectly capable of searching out and usually finding information..." an educated person would refrain from bragging and/or insulting another, just because they don't understand 'boolean' search expressions. None of us are masters of all knowledge - It's OK to ask if uncertain. Always remember, the only stupid question, is the one never asked.

When searching a document the terms such as '(and/or)' are not used. They are implicit in their use in regard to substitutions. So when the results you think you'll find are not presented, try a different way. If that fails, ask.

 

[navychop]

I'm with Hall on this one. Nothing you have presented supports your claim that Dish is required to pass PSIP data. Nothing.

This is a question that has gone on since Dish & PSIP first "parted ways." There is no definitive answer yet, and probably won't be until a court or the Congress decides, or some agreement is reached between the FCC & Dish and no doubt other concerned parties.

But your points on the 722S are quite good.

 

[FCom911]

So, may I assume, neither of you have read the document's contents, specific to PSIP? Of particular rational, sections: 185-194.

 

[Hall]

I've read it twice now....

185 - refers to updating the PSIP standard
186 - explains what PSIP is
187 - talks about another revision to PSIP and how broadcasters are req'd to transmit the data

Is that what you're mistaken about ? I'm 100% confident that "broadcasters" in this sense refers to the TV stations, not a satellite or cable operator.

188 - more details about how PSIP operates and what it provides
189 - Full text ...

Finally, a couple of comments noted, in response to our inquiry in the Third DTV Periodic Review NPRM, that PSIP information may not be passed through to cable and satellite subscribers. We will address such program-related PSIP issues in our DTV Must Carry proceeding.

Nothing definitive there...

190 - refers to DTV tuners that are part of TVs
191 - 193 - V-Chip stuff....
194 - explains how/why the FCC is allowed to make changes/revisions

 

[Peter Parker]

So, may I assume, neither of you have read the document's contents, specific to PSIP? Of particular rational, sections: 185-194.

Why don't you just tell us? Whyare you being so difficult?

 

[Jim5506]

PSIP is too flakey and unreliable for DRV recording purposes - other than for channel ID it is almost useless.

 

[FCom911]

You ask why am I so steadfast on the PSIP topic?

Because what Dish is doing is wrong. Because interfering with the provisions', is wrong. By attempting to gain monetarily at the expense of children, is wrong. To claim ignorance, is wrong... My sole wish on this matter was to enlighten and promote advocation; no more, no less.

Just because some of you don't embrace PSIP technology, nor understand it, doesn't make it wrong.

Clearly, one does not mandate provisions and then allow manufacture's to ignore them. If that is the logic here, there's no logic for mandating the provisions. I could sight countless sources, but there would be still those who would remain nay sayers. I read, I research, and I enlighten. Yes, it is my interpretation, but my foundations are based on documentation, consults with others on governmental and manufacturing levels, as well. For those who beg to differ, before proceeding, understand the contents and the context of the entire document, to which I referred to. I can't, nor will I, hold your hand through the entire process. You have to be just as inquisitive to be informed on this, or any other subject matter, to be informed, enlightened, and respond as such.

Q: Why are there record fines being levied on manufacture's and retailer's for DTV non compliance?

A: Do a Google search on DTV fines... Specifically, note the addressing of v-chip non-compliance... i.e., FCC Issues Millions In DTV Fines -- Digital Television -- InformationWeek.

Ah... but you say, that's just for TVs...

Q: Regarding, Echostar/Dish's 'DTV PAL,' is it not a STB? (Be sure to read its specs...) DTVPAL.COM.

But again, you say its not a TV. You're correct, it is not a TV, and it is in full compliance with the FCC regarding PSIP.

The arguments put forth by member's here, somehow try to legitimize the subversion and full intent of PSIP, and its compliance obligations, is simply ludicrous.

For those who wish to remain informed on the topic, as issues become more clearer pertaining to the PSIP matter(s), I'll post them. Until then...

 

[FCom911]

sighted from: http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/139500-fcc-pertaining-psip-v-chip-technology.html

• Will I be able to use parental controls like the V-chip with digital TV the same way I
now can with my analog TV?

Yes. The V-chip is a technology that enables parents to block television programming based
on a program’s rating. The ratings are encoded within the television signal. The V-chip reads
the encoded rating information of each program and blocks shows according to the parents’
blocking selections. FCC rules require that V-chips be built into digital televisions and other
DTV reception devices just as they are in analog televisions. You can learn about the ratings
system, also known as “TV Parental Guidelines,” at FCC V-Chip ​

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

V Chip is a tool for parents who probably shouldn't be parents.

Its sad that they can't take care of their own kids and depend on the technology to take care of their kids.

Please stop spamming us with your stuff, how many times are you going to post the same thing. Posting it once is fine, but posting it all over is considered spam and your post and possibly your account will be removed for spamming.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[FCom911]

V Chip is a tool for parents who probably shouldn't be parents.

Its sad that they can't take care of their own kids and depend on the technology to take care of their kids.

Please stop spamming us with your stuff, how many times are you going to post the same thing. Posting it once is fine, but posting it all over is considered spam and your post and possibly your account will be removed for spamming.

Thanks for your understanding.

Thanks for implying I'm a poor parent as well as your intended censorship. If you consider this SPAM, you're mistaken.

 

[Derwin0]

• Will I be able to use parental controls like the V-chip with digital TV the same way I

now can with my analog TV?​

V-chip is different from PSIP.
Receivers can easily use V-chip without ever looking at PSIP.

From everything I seen, here and elsewhere, TV's and receivers are only required to acknowledge V-chip, not PSIP.
Broadcasters are required to broadcast both though.

 

[Hall]

FCom911: I think this is the case.... You believe certain things and you can't accept that we don't believe in the same things. I don't like that Dish requires paying for locals to get guide data but they can and contrary to what you want to believe, there's no gov't mandate saying they can't do this.

You've yet to show one iota of evidence that Dish is breaking any laws or regulations. You've been asked repeatedly to do so and then just link to a PDF document from the FCC ... that doesn't prove anything or help your case.

 

[FCom911]

V-chip is different from PSIP.
Receivers can easily use V-chip without ever looking at PSIP.

From everything I seen, here and elsewhere, TV's and receivers are only required to acknowledge V-chip, not PSIP.
Broadcasters are required to broadcast both though.

Can we at least agree they are indeed impeding V-Chip mandates in regards to OTA?

My understanding, PSIP content contains the ratings code as well as name, content, as well as scheduling information. It's part of the stream.