Ciel-2 Now Scheduled for November?

[CommCtr]

SES Financial review dated April 2008 notes a change in the planned launch of Ciel 2 to the first quarter of 2009. SES is an investor in Ciel.

AMC-21 is a 24 transponder Ku-band spacecraft and is scheduled for launch in August, 2008. Six transponders (four PBS) are under contract before launch. Successful launch and bringing into use of AMC-21 at 125W represents new Ku-band capacity as this orbital location has not previously been used at Ku-band.

 

[HDRoberts]

Are the Ekspress sats an ILS mission? They are Russian sats, so could it be a government mission, just using the ILS Proton/Britz combo? There are 2 Proton pads at Baikonur, so that lauch perhaps could go on independantly of ILS launches. If they aren't, and Astra 1M is off Proton and moved to an Ariane 5, perhaps November isn't unreasonable, as a slot freed up.

 

[M Sparks]

More than just a replacement. It's a spotbeam bird too, so it should bring more HD local markets online.

Digi, we were talking about this the other day and I never got an answer...maybe you would know.

Isn't Ciel 2 ALL spotbeams? And, in fact, isn't DISH just leasing 16 transponders (each with 8 beams)? Yes, that's a ton of local HD capacity, but where will the national stuff go? Is it all moving to 110?

I did hear that DISH might have the option to pick up some more transponders after launch, but still...if it's ALL spotbeams...

What am I missing? Is it just that they are all spotbeam CAPABLE? I know E XI will free up some CONUS space at 110, but I can't figure out where they will find room for all the national HD.

 

[RVD420]

If I am wrong on my facts here someone correct me, but why are they using ILS again? Wasn't ILS the one that lost E-14? After their recent successful launch using SeaLaunch, wouldn't they want to continue using SeaLaunch and their proven track record?

It is not like sealaunch has a great history of late.

The last few missions went without a hitch, but earlier this year sealaunch had a failure that required the sealaunch platform to be brought back for repairs. (bird went BOOM on the launch pad.)

 

[digiblur]

Digi, we were talking about this the other day and I never got an answer...maybe you would know.

Isn't Ciel 2 ALL spotbeams? And, in fact, isn't DISH just leasing 16 transponders (each with 8 beams)? Yes, that's a ton of local HD capacity, but where will the national stuff go? Is it all moving to 110?

I did hear that DISH might have the option to pick up some more transponders after launch, but still...if it's ALL spotbeams...

What am I missing? Is it just that they are all spotbeam CAPABLE? I know E XI will free up some CONUS space at 110, but I can't figure out where they will find room for all the national HD.

Of course not...they have to put the national HD somewhere. Think about it though. The frequencies the Canadians use can be reused via spotbeams in the US as long as it doesn't interfere. But I'm sure they had a rocket scientist or two putting their heads together to build this thing.

 

[long_time_DNC]

The move-up to November is good news! 129 is a dying bird and needs to be replaced ASAP...

 

[HDRoberts]

Of course not...they have to put the national HD somewhere. Think about it though. The frequencies the Canadians use can be reused via spotbeams in the US as long as it doesn't interfere. But I'm sure they had a rocket scientist or two putting their heads together to build this thing.

While that is logical, does it have the power? With less than 11kw of power can it power 16 CONUS, 16 Canadian, and a boatload of spots? Something has to give.

 

[rocatman]

While that is logical, does it have the power? With less than 11kw of power can it power 16 CONUS, 16 Canadian, and a boatload of spots? Something has to give.

Yes, the power capabilities of Ciel-2 will limit what can be done with the satellite.
Onr thing to consider is that the extensive spotbeam capability will provide a great deal of backup capability for E-10 and will probably be used in the future for the smaller DMAs' HD locals because of the extensive bandwidth needs.

 

[digiblur]

One thing I've questioned is how much of the bird is Canada really going to use? Can it be commercial use? If so, they might just run those in low power for wild feed type of deal with larger dishes?

 

[navychop]

Launch vehicles are arranged for a couple of years in advance. So any failures after the contract is signed won't make much difference. As mentioned above, they could cancel, but then basically start a new 2 year waiting period.

 

[mike123abc]

From what I have seen on other satellites:

100-150 watt is normal CONUS TP power
200-260 is the usual range for double
Spots run from 35-90, but given the large number on this bird, probably tiny footprints so maybe around 50 watts.

So lets say 100 small spots at 50, 5kw, 16 Canada wide spots (reusing the 100 over in Canada) at 120 for 2kw
16 CONUS/Canada coverage at 200 3.2kw

They might be able to do it if they run the CONUS ones somewhere between normal and double. Of course there is all the receiving equipment and other satellite operations overhead to consider power usage too.

 

[nelson61]

From what I have seen on other satellites:

100-150 watt is normal CONUS TP power
200-260 is the usual range for double
Spots run from 35-90, but given the large number on this bird, probably tiny footprints so maybe around 50 watts.

So lets say 100 small spots at 50, 5kw, 16 Canada wide spots (reusing the 100 over in Canada) at 120 for 2kw
16 CONUS/Canada coverage at 200 3.2kw

They might be able to do it if they run the CONUS ones somewhere between normal and double. Of course there is all the receiving equipment and other satellite operations overhead to consider power usage too.

Thanks, you have the best summary of possible KW load factors I've seen.

some links with some tech details follow

Gunter's Space Page - Information on Launch vehicles, Satellites, Space Shuttle and Astronautics

Activities Details - High Definition TV Services For US and Canada

 

[rocatman]

If there is a Canadian user, it is most likely BEV. Perhaps the deal Dish has with BEV (and TeleSat) for 72.7 W is tied to another agreement at 129 W with Ciel-2. Since BEV uses Dish receivers could Ciel-2 have CONUS beams that also cover the parts of Canada that can see 129 W and then the same programming could be provided to the U.S. and Canada on the same TPs? Also could Nimiq 5 which is to be the permanent satellite at 72.7 W scheduled for launch in the second half of 2009 designed with TPs that cover both the U.S. and Canada?

 

[M Sparks]

Of course not...they have to put the national HD somewhere. Think about it though. The frequencies the Canadians use can be reused via spotbeams in the US as long as it doesn't interfere. .

There's no doubt that this will be a big deal for local HD. But as you say..."they have to put the national HD somewhere."

So...where? Whether they wind up using 16 Spot TPs or 32...it still doesn't explain where the national HD is going. I'm not sure I understand how they are going to fit what they already have, let alone what they are going to need to add to keep up.

Maybe if I understood how Echo XI is fitting in this plan, it would make more sense. It seems backward to me. I mean, there would be plenty of room for national HD at 129 if they weren't wasting so many CONUS TPs on locals. So, they can move all that stuff onto the Ciel 2 spots and free up a bunch of room for national HD...and then Echo V falls out of the sky 5 minutes later. What then? Are they planning to move a bunch of locals from 110 to 129? That's the only thing that makes sense to me, but that's also a lot of potential repointing .

 

[rocatman]

There's no doubt that this will be a big deal for local HD. But as you say..."they have to put the national HD somewhere."

So...where? Whether they wind up using 16 Spot TPs or 32...it still doesn't explain where the national HD is going. I'm not sure I understand how they are going to fit what they already have, let alone what they are going to need to add to keep up.

Maybe if I understood how Echo XI is fitting in this plan, it would make more sense. It seems backward to me. I mean, there would be plenty of room for national HD at 129 if they weren't wasting so many CONUS TPs on locals. So, they can move all that stuff onto the Ciel 2 spots and free up a bunch of room for national HD...and then Echo V falls out of the sky 5 minutes later. What then? Are they planning to move a bunch of locals from 110 to 129? That's the only thing that makes sense to me, but that's also a lot of potential repointing .

As I posted earlier, I expect Ciel-2 is designed similar to E-12 aka Rainbow-1 in that it has the flexibility to use a TP for spotbeams or for CONUS. Let's assume Dish gets use of 20 TPs and if Dish uses only 4 TPs for spotbeams initially that may provide HD locals for 25 - 30 cities plus perhaps provide the SD locals for the handful of cities currently at 129 W (or there could be some shuffling of SD locals off of 110 W or 119W). This still would leave plenty of room for national HD.

 

[Bradtothebone]

E*5 already has 9 or 10 HD LIL cities PLUS almost all of the national HD's (including the 8/1 additions) - all on CONUS. With Ciel 2, if you freed up half of the six CONUS TP's currently being used for HD LIL's, and added TP 1, which is currently not in use, you could add another 28 National HD without breaking a sweat, and still be able to add a bunch of LIL's on spots.

I think it's safe to say that E* has a lot of eggs in Ciel 2's basket!

Brad

 

[M Sparks]

As I posted earlier, I expect Ciel-2 is designed similar to E-12 aka Rainbow-1 in that it has the flexibility to use a TP for spotbeams or for CONUS.

I guess it must, or this whole thing just won't make sense.

The only OFFICIAL word I've been able to locate was that DISH was leasing 16 TPs, all spots, with 8 beams each. But that info was pretty old- in fact, the math they used seemed like it was pre-MPEG-4. I can't find anything more recent that's not speculation.

EDIT...I suppose that official release could have been written in a manner designed to sound more impressive in a press release. Like, using all 16 TPs as spots with a full 8 spots each allows them to claim a higher number of potential channels than if they use half as CONUS and half as spots. But free CONUS beams are really what we need right now.

 

[M Sparks]

With Ciel 2, if you freed up half of the six CONUS TP's currently being used for HD LIL's, and added TP 1, which is currently not in use, you could add another 28 National HD without breaking a sweat

I believe there's actually 10 TPs on 129 that carry locals. There's actually some SD locals up there.

Depending on how the spots are configured, that 10 TPs could be knocked down to as little as 2, with room for 6 more cities.

On the other side, they have 23 TPs on E-V now, and they are only guaranteed access to 16 on Ciel-2. They will likely have more, but 16 is the minimum.

 

[digiblur]

I believe there's actually 10 TPs on 129 that carry locals. There's actually some SD locals up there.

Depending on how the spots are configured, that 10 TPs could be knocked down to as little as 2, with room for 6 more cities.

On the other side, they have 23 TPs on E-V now, and they are only guaranteed access to 16 on Ciel-2. They will likely have more, but 16 is the minimum.

Yep 10 TP's on 129 carry SD/HD locals.

SatelliteGuys.US - Subscription 129°W

EDIT: There's two other locals stuff on another TP but I didn't count that one.

 

[Bradtothebone]

I believe there's actually 10 TPs on 129 that carry locals. There's actually some SD locals up there.

Depending on how the spots are configured, that 10 TPs could be knocked down to as little as 2, with room for 6 more cities.

On the other side, they have 23 TPs on E-V now, and they are only guaranteed access to 16 on Ciel-2. They will likely have more, but 16 is the minimum.

I agree with everything you are saying; I was only giving one example based on the TP's being used now for CONUS HD-LIL's.

Does anyone know where the future E*14 and E*15 are supposed to go when they are launched in '09 and '10?

Brad