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AVS Forum - View Single Post - R&B Films - DRS Mastering for Superior PQ / AQ
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"Well, let me break a secret to you. There is not a person involved in this or any other technology business who would not be proud of wearing the label "good enough." Good enough means we fully understood what you, yes all of you (see below), needed and delivered just that and didn't take your money or that of others for things you can't experience. And I hate to tell you this but this is the motivation behind *both* formats, not just HD DVD. Before hitting the "quote" button, please read the following
.
"Good enough" means that instead of giving you 4:2:2 video sampling that we use when we capture and process anything in a studio/post production house, both formats filter half the color resolution (color has a quarter of resolution compared to black&white in both formats because of this). And then at decode time, we interpolate the missing color samples with, horrors of horrors, with more filtering! Just look the SMPTE color bars on any test discs and look at the edges between the colors. They look soft, don't they? But hey, it is "good enough" to sell you an HD format so why not? The Gods of BD format who were interested in selling you the best, rather than good enough, must have been sleep that day
.
"Good enough" means that we give you 8-bit color in both formats instead of 10-bits used to (hopefully) create the master. And with it, we cause color banding or introduction of noise to get around its limitation. Think about this for a minute. While folks are hammering to get "24-bit" audio, we give you only 8-bits of luma resolution. This means your signal to noise ratio is a mere 48 db, about half of a cassette tape does for audio! Why? Because well, everyone thought that you wouldn't know any better. So it is "good enough."
"Good enough" means that when Sony was putting out its first set of titles, The Fifth Element, XXX, and House of Flying artifacts, they thought that level of quality was well, "good enough." (sorry, couldn't resist
)
"Good enough" is Sony using its MPEG-2 encoder until their own AVC codec was ready. Never mind that there were a number of AVC encoders and our VC-1 was already available and had produced better quality in HD DVD than their titles. Because well, they thought it would be "good enough" for you all. And if we were not around, maybe they would still be selling you "good enough" quality.
"Good enough" is designing to build the BD format to be a recording medium first and foremost. Imagine recording the horrible MPEG-2 artifact ridden broadcast TV we have in US instead of the stellar video quality we give you on HD DVD. Sure, a recorder is more expensive and has better sales margins. But between us, I am sure we both agree that wouldn't have been "good enough" but some of the key people in your camp thought it was.
"Good enough" is building 99.9% of the 5.1 amplifiers and AVRs with a shared power supply so that money is saved. But if one channel gets pushed hard, it causes the power to fluctuate in the other channels causing any dreams of reproducing all the resolution of the source becoming a pipe dream.
"Good enough" is using "24-bit DACs" but not being able to design the electronics such that the thing even produces 16-bits properly, let alone anything better. Since many of you buy the equipment on spec, and without seeing the linearity tests for the DAC, the design is "good enough." How many of you hammering for 24-bit audio, and watching those bitrate meters, have seen a single test of the DAC in your audio chain?
"Good enough" is buying a sub woofer with a "digital" amplifier which puts out more distortion than your 8-track audio tape but hey, it rattles the room nicely. So it is "good enough." Never mind that that thing doesn't even fill the gap between it and the main drivers.
"Good enough" means having underpowered power supplies and cooling systems in your plasma display so that it has to lower its brightness if the area gets too big on screen! The luminance is constantly pumping up and down yet folks buy them happily because well, they are "good enough."
"Good enough" is buying LCD displays which have little correlation with the color fidelity that was used when creating the master for these formats.
"Good enough" is mastering both formats on CRT SMPTE-C phosphor (!) when none of you, barring the handful who have the Joe Kane designed displays, have such a setting. But hey, you don't know the difference so it must be "good enough." Who needs accurate colors when we can argue about peak numbers for the two formats every minute here.
I could go on but by now, you might be thinking, thank heavens Rich is not like these cheap BD/HD DVD and CE bastards to give us such sub-par equipment. But let me break that mirage for you also. He is just as much of a "good enough" as the rest of us.
Instead of taking advantage of HD DVD interactivity, his lucid producer had to come here and in words, describe the motivation behind the special effects and processing used to create his title. Why? Why couldn't have Rich spent extra money to put him in front of the camera and his effects system/computer to educate everyone who owns the disc rather than the few chasing these threads? Answer is that this would have cost even more money so he thought leaving this out was well, "good enough" for all of us. But it ain't with those us who realize how much of the creative potential of HD DVD was thrown out the window this way.
Rich could have built a positive relationship with the key technology supplier in this space who is and was willing to help him get the most out of using VC-1. But he did not. Instead, he simply relied on using the post house to do the encoding, and settling with well, "good enough" by your terminology in creating his HD DVD encode. And with it, missed the chance to produce a title with lossless audio with the same visual quality.
Rich's title is shot on interlace camera even though all of us are experiencing these images on progressive displays. Surely he knows this. Yet, I am sure the interlace camera was easier to come by and was smaller and easier to carry than high-end progressive one. So "good enough" practice was put in use because well, his producer had to live in the real world when it comes to spending his money like the rest of us do.
So the world is full of "good enough" people and let's be thankful about that. Otherwise, we would have no audio or video equipment that we could afford to buy, and get the enjoyment that both camps are getting out of these formats.
At the end I hope, I really hope, that if we aspire to have a great forum here, we don't start calling people names this way and put down the passion they bring to this business. And that we start to learn about our entire delivery and production chain and not zoom on in partisan specs which at the end of the day, most of us don't really understand well enough. Show me that you understand half of the issues mentioned above and discuss then at 10% of the level of rehashing lossless and bitrates, and then and only then, would I consider you to be anything but a "good enough" man, like the rest of us!"
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Diogen.
AVS Forum - View Single Post - R&B Films - DRS Mastering for Superior PQ / AQ
***************************************************
"Well, let me break a secret to you. There is not a person involved in this or any other technology business who would not be proud of wearing the label "good enough." Good enough means we fully understood what you, yes all of you (see below), needed and delivered just that and didn't take your money or that of others for things you can't experience. And I hate to tell you this but this is the motivation behind *both* formats, not just HD DVD. Before hitting the "quote" button, please read the following
"Good enough" means that instead of giving you 4:2:2 video sampling that we use when we capture and process anything in a studio/post production house, both formats filter half the color resolution (color has a quarter of resolution compared to black&white in both formats because of this). And then at decode time, we interpolate the missing color samples with, horrors of horrors, with more filtering! Just look the SMPTE color bars on any test discs and look at the edges between the colors. They look soft, don't they? But hey, it is "good enough" to sell you an HD format so why not? The Gods of BD format who were interested in selling you the best, rather than good enough, must have been sleep that day
"Good enough" means that we give you 8-bit color in both formats instead of 10-bits used to (hopefully) create the master. And with it, we cause color banding or introduction of noise to get around its limitation. Think about this for a minute. While folks are hammering to get "24-bit" audio, we give you only 8-bits of luma resolution. This means your signal to noise ratio is a mere 48 db, about half of a cassette tape does for audio! Why? Because well, everyone thought that you wouldn't know any better. So it is "good enough."
"Good enough" means that when Sony was putting out its first set of titles, The Fifth Element, XXX, and House of Flying artifacts, they thought that level of quality was well, "good enough." (sorry, couldn't resist
"Good enough" is Sony using its MPEG-2 encoder until their own AVC codec was ready. Never mind that there were a number of AVC encoders and our VC-1 was already available and had produced better quality in HD DVD than their titles. Because well, they thought it would be "good enough" for you all. And if we were not around, maybe they would still be selling you "good enough" quality.
"Good enough" is designing to build the BD format to be a recording medium first and foremost. Imagine recording the horrible MPEG-2 artifact ridden broadcast TV we have in US instead of the stellar video quality we give you on HD DVD. Sure, a recorder is more expensive and has better sales margins. But between us, I am sure we both agree that wouldn't have been "good enough" but some of the key people in your camp thought it was.
"Good enough" is building 99.9% of the 5.1 amplifiers and AVRs with a shared power supply so that money is saved. But if one channel gets pushed hard, it causes the power to fluctuate in the other channels causing any dreams of reproducing all the resolution of the source becoming a pipe dream.
"Good enough" is using "24-bit DACs" but not being able to design the electronics such that the thing even produces 16-bits properly, let alone anything better. Since many of you buy the equipment on spec, and without seeing the linearity tests for the DAC, the design is "good enough." How many of you hammering for 24-bit audio, and watching those bitrate meters, have seen a single test of the DAC in your audio chain?
"Good enough" is buying a sub woofer with a "digital" amplifier which puts out more distortion than your 8-track audio tape but hey, it rattles the room nicely. So it is "good enough." Never mind that that thing doesn't even fill the gap between it and the main drivers.
"Good enough" means having underpowered power supplies and cooling systems in your plasma display so that it has to lower its brightness if the area gets too big on screen! The luminance is constantly pumping up and down yet folks buy them happily because well, they are "good enough."
"Good enough" is buying LCD displays which have little correlation with the color fidelity that was used when creating the master for these formats.
"Good enough" is mastering both formats on CRT SMPTE-C phosphor (!) when none of you, barring the handful who have the Joe Kane designed displays, have such a setting. But hey, you don't know the difference so it must be "good enough." Who needs accurate colors when we can argue about peak numbers for the two formats every minute here.
I could go on but by now, you might be thinking, thank heavens Rich is not like these cheap BD/HD DVD and CE bastards to give us such sub-par equipment. But let me break that mirage for you also. He is just as much of a "good enough" as the rest of us.
Instead of taking advantage of HD DVD interactivity, his lucid producer had to come here and in words, describe the motivation behind the special effects and processing used to create his title. Why? Why couldn't have Rich spent extra money to put him in front of the camera and his effects system/computer to educate everyone who owns the disc rather than the few chasing these threads? Answer is that this would have cost even more money so he thought leaving this out was well, "good enough" for all of us. But it ain't with those us who realize how much of the creative potential of HD DVD was thrown out the window this way.
Rich could have built a positive relationship with the key technology supplier in this space who is and was willing to help him get the most out of using VC-1. But he did not. Instead, he simply relied on using the post house to do the encoding, and settling with well, "good enough" by your terminology in creating his HD DVD encode. And with it, missed the chance to produce a title with lossless audio with the same visual quality.
Rich's title is shot on interlace camera even though all of us are experiencing these images on progressive displays. Surely he knows this. Yet, I am sure the interlace camera was easier to come by and was smaller and easier to carry than high-end progressive one. So "good enough" practice was put in use because well, his producer had to live in the real world when it comes to spending his money like the rest of us do.
So the world is full of "good enough" people and let's be thankful about that. Otherwise, we would have no audio or video equipment that we could afford to buy, and get the enjoyment that both camps are getting out of these formats.
At the end I hope, I really hope, that if we aspire to have a great forum here, we don't start calling people names this way and put down the passion they bring to this business. And that we start to learn about our entire delivery and production chain and not zoom on in partisan specs which at the end of the day, most of us don't really understand well enough. Show me that you understand half of the issues mentioned above and discuss then at 10% of the level of rehashing lossless and bitrates, and then and only then, would I consider you to be anything but a "good enough" man, like the rest of us!"
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Diogen.
7 Replies
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2309 views
D
HD/BD - if one of them wins and soon - will be the last one.
When the first WMV-HD DVD was released (Terminator 2, Extreme Edition), the video stream was 6.35Mbps. The undisputed king of high quality video at that time - D-Theatre tape - was using 24Mbps CBR MPEG-2 for its version of T2 and unanimously was of inferior quality when compared with WMV HD (the predecessor of VC-1 today).
The codec has improved leaps and bounds. Its competitor - H.264 AVC - is as good or better than VC-1.
Reading todays HD/BD forums, it looks like people prefer to see 100Mbps/10 lossless codecs on the packaging without regard what actually it looks/sounds like. As Amir said, most of it is just illusion, a number game. And most of what is not - can't be heard/reproduced by non-trained ears/eyes and most equipment.
What the studios should do, is invent a new optical format and make it impossible to figure out what the storage/bandwidth it has. And announce those 100Mbps rates. I don't think many will notice if in the end it will be a XviD encode of a 2h movie into the space of 1 CD...
This will be my last post on the "good enough" topic.
Diogen.
I don't think there will be another, as popular as DVD is today, optical format.
HD/BD - if one of them wins and soon - will be the last one.
What is the magic about 6Mbps? Will you be happy with 10? 15? what about pre-downloading instead of real time streaming (VOD)?
When the first WMV-HD DVD was released (Terminator 2, Extreme Edition), the video stream was 6.35Mbps. The undisputed king of high quality video at that time - D-Theatre tape - was using 24Mbps CBR MPEG-2 for its version of T2 and unanimously was of inferior quality when compared with WMV HD (the predecessor of VC-1 today).
The codec has improved leaps and bounds. Its competitor - H.264 AVC - is as good or better than VC-1.
Reading todays HD/BD forums, it looks like people prefer to see 100Mbps/10 lossless codecs on the packaging without regard what actually it looks/sounds like. As Amir said, most of it is just illusion, a number game. And most of what is not - can't be heard/reproduced by non-trained ears/eyes and most equipment.
What the studios should do, is invent a new optical format and make it impossible to figure out what the storage/bandwidth it has. And announce those 100Mbps rates. I don't think many will notice if in the end it will be a XviD encode of a 2h movie into the space of 1 CD...
This will be my last post on the "good enough" topic.
Diogen.
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Wasn't exactly sure where to post this. Just had a customer come in inquiring about internet. He has HughesNet and had heard good things about mine. He asked if we provided email addresses and it kinda caught me off guard. I said he should be able to keep whatever email he had been using....my sister in law is still using a BellSouth email addy and they haven't been around here for many years. He said he had gotten a letter from HughesNet stating that they had until Nov 16th to save, move, forward, whatever, their Hughesnet emails because they would lose them after that date.
I have never heard of a company simply mass-deleting email accounts (the customer still has his HughesNet service). From what I understand, in the past, the company who was ditching their email service simply sold the customer base to a company like Google.
Anyone else getting this letter. He said he would show it to me tomorrow when I go out there and set up his internet.
I have never heard of a company simply mass-deleting email accounts (the customer still has his HughesNet service). From what I understand, in the past, the company who was ditching their email service simply sold the customer base to a company like Google.
Anyone else getting this letter. He said he would show it to me tomorrow when I go out there and set up his internet.
8 Replies
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156 views
Still the same number of years, just more Sunsets…Wouldn't we then die of old age sooner?
Supporting Founder
Lifetime Supporter
For the naysayers who did not think this service would make it, just added another 4.9M subscribers and that was after the removal of 1.2M Russia subscribers.
This is even better, Paramount+ revenue grew 120% and Subscription revenue grew 74% year-over-year ( 2nd quarter 2021/ 2nd quarter 2022) to $830M, principally reflecting paid subscriber growth on Paramount+.
Now compare that to Peacock with only 13 million paid, 13 million free.
This is even better, Paramount+ revenue grew 120% and Subscription revenue grew 74% year-over-year ( 2nd quarter 2021/ 2nd quarter 2022) to $830M, principally reflecting paid subscriber growth on Paramount+.
Now compare that to Peacock with only 13 million paid, 13 million free.
665 Replies
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61558 views
So, this means that those of us with Commercial Free subs, won't be Commercial Free, unless we wait till after the show is over ?
Which would make same day, not that big of a deal.
Paramount+ has always had the CBS shows on the CBS local channel and yes with commercials. What they are doing now is releasing the OnDemand versions of the show which I believe they don't release until after the shows air on the west coast. And they will be commercial free if you subscribe to the ad free version of Paramount+.So, this means that those of us with Commercial Free subs, won't be Commercial Free, unless we wait till after the show is over ?
Which would make same day, not that big of a deal.
I wasn't up at 3:00 am to check but they are there at 8:00 am today.
The new curated multiview is now live.
While on many of the sports channels and non sports channels there is a multi view option button. It will pull up a side bar with many different multi view options.
While on many of the sports channels and non sports channels there is a multi view option button. It will pull up a side bar with many different multi view options.
5 Replies
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184 views
Supporting Founder
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Apple has finally released their Apple TV 4K with built-in Siri and a microphone so it can respond to your queries even if you don't have the remote. It also increases in price, to $299. I had been planning on updating my current Apple TV 4K streamers, but that's $600 for the two of them, and that's a pass at this point.
At $299, it had better come with 256 GB of Storage, Gigabit (or better) Ethernet, the latest HDMI tech and standards, and one year of free Apple One. But it probably won't…
At $299, it had better come with 256 GB of Storage, Gigabit (or better) Ethernet, the latest HDMI tech and standards, and one year of free Apple One. But it probably won't…
Apple TV 4K
Apple TV 4K. New Siri AI and hands-free control. Stunning picture and immersive HomePod surround sound. Works with your Apple and smart home devices.
www.apple.com
16 Replies
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204 views
S
. apple's been making money off of software and not hardware for a while
they all do that anyways.. ever notice your cell phone slows down when you come up for an upgrade..
. apple's been making money off of software and not hardware for a while
Linus Tech Tips
Time for another AWESOME video from Linus Tech Tips!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV81SqB6HQg
Direct YouTube Link - NVIDIA Told me How to Benchmark RTX Spark
Linus on Facebook
The LTT Store
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV81SqB6HQg
Direct YouTube Link - NVIDIA Told me How to Benchmark RTX Spark
Linus on Facebook
The LTT Store
0 Replies
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2 views
Pub Member / Supporter
Cutting Edge
I created this thread on the original Edgecutter Cutting Edge Forums site. It's simply a place for those to review the latest software available for those using Windows 10 and Windows 11. To date it has received 112,559 views. I have been asked by staff to continue this thread here.
522 Replies
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47243 views
To each there own but I've found that Windows can't do much more than Linux can. Can't have everything.
For niche use cases, yes I agree. Kali for ethical hacking and security testing, and running a Cacti server for network monitoring are the two things I have experience in. Plus thousands and thousands of other things, but for every day use I just can't see it. The owner of the GMRS repeater that I pay to access is changing the Tx DPL tones tomorrow, while Chirp is available on Linux, the software to program my MXT500 is not.To each there own but I've found that Windows can't do much more than Linux can. Can't have everything.
I run Fedora and Ubuntu in VMWare, honestly I don't care much for the UI of either of them and I don't feel like spending days/weeks to customize the UI to make it look Windows-like when I could just use Windows. The cartoonish dock at the bottom of the screen reminds me of Apple products.
For some reason, the satelliteguys.us site is loading a lot slower than usual on both Chrome on my Asus laptop and Safari on my iPhone.
I'm also seeing longer appearances of the blue bar at the top and the "3 blue bars" loading symbol.
Is anyone else also having the same problem? Thanks in advance.
I'm also seeing longer appearances of the blue bar at the top and the "3 blue bars" loading symbol.
Is anyone else also having the same problem? Thanks in advance.
528 Replies
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17967 views
Remember folks... just like DNS... its always Foxbat. 
WTF… …What the Foxbat!Remember folks... just like DNS... its always Foxbat.
S
wow what a kick in the balls!!! the wife blames you when things don't work now scott's blaming youWTF… …What the Foxbat!
I know. Here's what Scott has in store for me if I get out of line:wow what a kick in the balls!!! the wife blames you when things don't work now scott's blaming you
S
OMG to freaking funny
Supporting Founder
Several Dish offers showed up today in my account. Once you choose one the rest are removed. Offers were Showtime, Starz, AMC and others.
33 Replies
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1597 views
Not for me, mines has no mention of how long aka the offer period and the Terms and conditions the $0.00 is good for. All I see is one can lose $5.00 if you decide to remove it before day 31 after you add it to the account.
Staff member
HERE TO HELP YOU!
Cutting Edge
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68496 Replies
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2670703 views
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z72cjoZP83E
Direct YouTube Link - AI Can Self-Replicate: Unplugging the Threat! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z72cjoZP83E
Direct YouTube Link - AI Can Self-Replicate: Unplugging the Threat! #shorts
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
0 Replies
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19 views