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vurbano
Supporting Founder
Last reply · posted in The HD DVD / Blu-ray WAR ZONE!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/business/31dvd.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=sloginhttp://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/bu...l?ref=business


In the DVD War Over High Definition, Most Buyers Are Sitting It Out
By ERIC A. TAUB

What if nobody wins the high-definition DVD format wars? That increasingly looks to be the situation for the next-generation DVD technology, which is available to consumers in two incompatible formats.

A little more than 18 months after their introduction, the two systems — Blu-ray, developed by Sony, and HD DVD, from Toshiba — have sold around one million stand-alone players combined. Both sides promote their technologies, their movie studio allies and the growing list of movies available in the new formats.

Yet neither has a clear advantage, either in terms of technology, number of movies or, increasingly, the price of the equipment. According to data from Adams Media Research, 578,000 HD DVD and 370,000 Blu-ray machines will be sold by the end of this year.

The winner of the format wars could be determined by which company has the most content, in the same way the VHS-Betamax VCR war was decided. But both formats offer about 400 movies. Studios allied with the Blu-ray camp include Columbia, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate, Miramax, New Line and Sony.

In the HD DVD camp are DreamWorks, Paramount, Universal, the Weinstein Company, and several smaller TV and motion picture companies. Warner Brothers releases movies for both systems.

In November, Howard Stringer, the Sony chairman, publicly acknowledged that the formats were in a stalemate, and predicted that neither side would fold.

High-definition DVDs of both formats provide superior picture and sound quality compared with standard DVDs.

They also offer advanced interactive features like multiple camera angles, games, picture-in-picture commentaries and, in the case of HD DVD, a connection to the Internet to download more content.

But the visual and audio differences depend on the size of the TV screen used to display them.

"You start to enjoy the benefits of high-definition DVD at 40 inches and above," said Chris Fawcett, vice president for product marketing at Sony Electronics' home video group.

Only high-definition sets can display high-definition DVD images. And only the highest-resolution displays, the so-called 1080p HDTVs, for progressive scan, can show the images at their best. As a result, the potential customer base is limited. With a lower-resolution 720p set, "you are not as likely to see a dramatic a difference" between standard and high-definition DVDs, according to Andy Parsons, chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

The two camps are victims of their own earlier success with DVD. The standard DVDs offered a quantum leap in quality from the picture and sound of VHS videotape, and for many that was more than adequate.

In addition, DVD players that can convert images to near high-definition quality can be found for under $100, hundreds less than a true high-definition DVD player, further reducing the urgency to upgrade to one of the new formats.

"Today, an HDTV owner hooks up a standard DVD and it looks good," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD Strategic Marketing at Universal, and co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group. "Unless they experience the new format, they won't understand it."

Not many consumers are interested in even taking a look. According to research by NPD Group, only 11 percent of HDTV set owners strongly intend to buy a Blu-ray or HD DVD player by next spring. Almost three-quarters of those HDTV owners surveyed said that standard DVD was good enough for them.

"This may emerge as a premium, luxury item, not a successor to DVD," said Ross Rubin, director for industry analysis at NPD.

Blu-ray and HD DVD proponents are doing what they can to change that attitude. And the best technique to pique interest is dropping the price. As with most things electronic, prices for both players have fallen drastically since their introduction.

HD DVD players, the vast majority of which are made by Toshiba, still have the price advantage. The company's least-expensive model — which displays images in the lower-quality 1080i format — can be found for $200 or less in electronics store promotions or from online discounters.

Its least-expensive 1080p model is selling at Amazon for $250. But it is a tit-for-tat war. A Blu-ray 1080p unit from Samsung is just $30 more at Costco. Blu-ray units are also made by Panasonic, Philips, Sony and others.

Several holiday promotions had players in either version selling for as low as $200.

In an effort to finesse the format war, LG sells a combination unit that plays both formats; however, its $1,000 price has prompted only a few thousand consumers to buy.

As prices drop, high-definition DVD drives will find their way into other devices. Mr. Graffeo predicts that by the end of next year, 5 million notebook computers will be sold with HD DVD drives.

Sony says that 3.4 million Blu-ray disc drives are also in PlayStation 3 machines, giving it a numerical advantage. But the rival camp points out that gamers are not buying the PS3 to watch movies, and in any case, 300,000 HD DVD add-on drives will have been purchased to use with the Xbox 360 game console from Microsoft.

The 400 movies available in each format are a fraction of the 90,000 movies and TV programs that the video rental company Netflix offers. Increasingly, high-definition DVDs are being issued simultaneously with the standard definition DVD release.

Consumers are usually advised to wait until a clear winner emerges. But if there is a deciding factor, it might be which format has the more compelling movies. Good animation looks three-dimensional in high definition, so Sony is hoping to gain an advantage by providing Blu-ray formats of "Ratatouille," the Disney/Pixar film about a cute French rat who cooks, and blockbusters like "Spider-Man 3."

As an indication of their owners' enthusiasm, Blu-ray users are buying twice as many discs as their HD DVD counterparts, according to Tom Adams, president of Adams Media Research.

Discs can be rented at the Blockbuster and Netflix online stores. Of Blockbuster's 5,000 physical stores, 250 offer both high-definition DVD formats, while 1,450 rent only Blu-ray; the rest offer none. The company emphasizes Blu-ray because 70 percent of its rentals are for that format, said Karen Raskopf, a Blockbuster spokeswoman.

The HD DVD camp is playing up its new interactive features, believing that the next generation of viewers wants to combine TV viewing with video games.

In Universal's just-released HD DVD of "The Bourne Ultimatum," viewers can play a game that tests their memories, and then upload their results using a broadband connection to a Web site and compare their scores with others.

Viewers can also find character dossiers, watch "Webisodes" with the Volkswagen Touareg sport utility vehicle featured in the film, and create playlists of their favorite scenes and share them with friends.

Those features will do little to increase sales, said Richard Doherty, an analyst with the Envisioneering Group. The market consultants' surveys show that just 3 percent of consumers want interactivity, he said.

As more consumers buy HDTVs, and the price of dual format players drop, an uneasy truce may descend. With the studios in the United States collectively making $16.5 billion in worldwide video sales, according to Mr. Adams, companies will be loath to miss an opportunity to make money by allying themselves with one high-definition DVD format over the other. And then, the once-unthinkable could happen.

"When high-definition DVD reaches its tipping point, studios will have to release their movies in both HD DVD and Blu-ray," Mr. Adams said. "No studio will be able to afford not to."
22 Replies · 5292 views
TheForce
diogen- The trouble with extracting information from wikipedia is that you have gone away thinking something completely wrong and are trying to relate it to something entirely different. What the author of that entry is saying is that the original betamax recorder did what the 3/4Umatic system did. What he failed to state is that Betamax recorder that did the one speed of B1, was an industrial edit recorder*. I recall the model was SLO-383. It had nothing to do with a consumer betamax VCR. Later on Sony began to sell consumer VCR's in Betamax half inch tape format but these were indeed 2 speed machines, B2 and B3 speeds. The rest of the info is correct. Later on from that Sony offered the B1 speed in a consumer VCR making the number of speeds 3. To state that a main problem Sony had in the market with Bertamax was it only offered single speed is just untrue and I don't believe the Wiki info made that claim. However, the wiki poster did make misleading history in that he mixed up industrial betamax with consumer VCR's If I didn't know better I would have made the same incorrect conclusion as you did. It is correct that Betamax slow speed on the longest, thinnest tape still did not match VHS's longest record time. While this may have been an important issue to some, considering the PQ at these long times, it never was a deciding factor since most people would record at SP speed or a T-120 was 2 hours long. On betamax, most used B2 speed.

My main point was, that this format war between Sony and JVC of the 80's does not offer patterns to guage the format war winner between Toshiba and Sony today. Where the old tape formats had clear advantages over the opponent, today, both Sony and Toshiba, are a pretty close match. And, the longer we have this war the closer the two become.

* I might add that there were other industrial players and non-edit recorders too but all were designed to work in the industrial environment with one speed. The consumer machines were 2 slower speeds The L500 tape in Beta 1 was a 60 minute record time but in B2 was 2 hours and beta 3 was 3 hours. They also offered the L750 tape which gave run times 50% longer. When we used L750 on the SLO383, we achieved a 90 minute master for our programs. In later years I sold my SLO383 and got the SLHF1000 which was a 3 speed machine and a built in edit controller but designed as a consumer VCR. It was, I believe the top of the line for betamax VCR's. I still have the SLHF1000 today and use it to play older B1 SHB edit masters.
D
To state that a main problem Sony had in the market with Bertamax was it only offered single speed is just untrue and I don't believe the Wiki info made that claim.
I got the impression reading the wiki that Beta was a step behind in offering longer recordings. And I normally trust wiki on matters of fact.
Having said that, I'll admit to not being around on this continent around the time that war played out and could be wrong.

Diogen.
TNGTony
Part of the beta time problem is that the Sony President at the time INSISTED that the Beta video tapes be the size of standard a paperback book for the sake of portability. The tape could fit in most people's jacket pocket that way. This limited the amount of tape in the cartridge.

VHS "Video Home System" was really a "customer-ized" revision of the true name:
Vertical Helical Scan :)

See ya
Tony
TheForce
I got the impression reading the wiki that Beta was a step behind in offering longer recordings. And I normally trust wiki on matters of fact.
Having said that, I'll admit to not being around on this continent around the time that war played out and could be wrong.

Diogen.

Yes, betamax never did offer the play time that VHS did, but then VHS PQ at those increased play times was significantly worse than beta's slowest speed too. If you took a T-120 vs a B2 L500, both recording for 2 hours, the Beta had a significantly better PQ, as well as ability to achieve stable still pause. VHS never did achieve stable pausing until after the introduction of the frame store on a chip technology. Beta tape wrap design permitted both heads scanning the tape at the same time while VHS could only achieve one at a time. Thus beta was able to reconstruct a still image via mechanical and VHS would lose 50% of the scan lines unless the tape was moving. Anyway, I'm sure some people made a big deal about the original betamax editors not able to do more than 90 minutes, and false information propagated among those who didn't understand the technology and knew nothing more than what they heard from JVC motivated reports. The truth is both achieved 2 hour times of adequate quality but VHS was able to push the envelope to 6 and even 8 hours with extremely poor PQ. At the end of the era, betamax lost due to lack of movie studio support, not due to inability to achieve a match of 6hr recording time.
In addition, the beta story doesn't end there. While beta tape format lost on the consumer level it went on to become the defacto standard in broadcast and in the mid 90's with industrial TV production using an upgraded tape called betaSP. Guess what? The longest record time on betacam SP is 90 minutes. :) Today, 2008, while many TV studios have switched to digital tape formats of various flavors, the one constant nearly every production house, TV station, cable op, and studio has is betacam SP. Unless doing HiDef, Beta SP is the safe bet. How long will this last? Not much longer because 2 years ago, Sony decided to kill the betacam SP market by ending it's manufacture and licensing of the format. They want everyone to move to HDCAM or Varicam or XDcam. sigh... Meanwhile, I output 50 or more beta SP air masters a month because everyone still has that capability. Sony has the ability to dictate what will become standard. This is why they are likely to become the winner. The only issue that really killed their consumer acceptance of betamax, was studio support. That won't happen again with bluRay.
TheForce
Part of the beta time problem is that the Sony President at the time INSISTED that the Beta video tapes be the size of standard a paperback book for the sake of portability. The tape could fit in most people's jacket pocket that way. This limited the amount of tape in the cartridge.

VHS "Video Home System" was really a "customer-ized" revision of the true name:
Vertical Helical Scan :)

See ya
Tony

Haven't heard that one in many years. It was often joked about since it was floated around by the PHD's at the Best Buy stores of the 80's. :D

I believe the evidence lies in the legal name which is a registered trademark of JVC- VHS Video Home System. "Vertical Helical Scan" is not just incorrect technically as the tracks are diagonal on the tape, the same diagonal helical scanning is used on both beta and VHS as well as the new digital tape formats such as DVCAM, miniDV, DVC, digi beta, D1 D2 D5, etc..
D
...VHS PQ at those increased play times was significantly worse than beta's slowest speed too.
Yeah... Beta picture quality was better than VHS, nobody is disputing that.
Just shows that already by the end of the 70s "quality" took a back seat to "convenience".
And a replay of this we witnessed with MP3 vs. SACD/DVD-A, Apple's iPod vs. Sony's MiniDisc.
And the fate of LaserDisc and D-VHS is probably somewhere there, too.

Will be interesting to see how HD/BD fares against DVD.

Diogen.
TheForce
Diogen- since you said you weren't really around when these early development days of video happened. Here's an observation of mine that you may find interesting- Sony was responsible for most all the video formats except for the M wrap and its derivations... that is VHS, SVHS, MII. Sony developed so many beta formats that lacked cross format compatibility, pushed them all hard on the public and then just dropped them with a short life. The long lasting ones were 3/4Umatic a beta wrap format, actually the first I recall. True that Ampex also had a big hand in the development but Sony not only refined the format but marketed it in a big way, for awhile! Short lived versions were- formats like 8mm, Hi8, Betamax of course, betacam SX, and within some of these we had other formats, incompatible but close, like Single 8, DVC, SHB Betamax Metal, and dozens of others, all were beta wrap design. The point is that knowing Sony's history on video formats tells me that they have a long standing track record to push a new incompatible format hard and then just drop it in sometimes less than a year. Even when the format is a huge success, like 3/4Umatic SP and Betacam SP. I don't trust Sony to stick to any format regardless of market success. So if BluRay should win the war, Sony may just fall back on their history and kill it because they have developed a new way to do hiDef programming. In this respect I do believe history will repeat itself.
D
I'd be the last guy to join a Sony fan club, but I don't think it is that bad...
From what I read (and some other anecdotal evidence) MiniDisc was (is?) very popular in Japan.
Hence, some of Sony fathered formats could be country specific: in the dumps in NA but flourish in Asia...

Diogen.
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network
0 Replies · 0 views
osu1991
Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in TV Shows
2 Replies · 52 views
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Howard Simmons

Another Tulsa King spin off.🙄
dishstaller
Another Tulsa King spin off.🙄
But.....if you like Tulsa King....looks like you would probably like this as well. I don't mind spin-offs as long as they don't involve a sassy niece who moves from the big city :rolleyes:
T
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum
I thought I would come here and find lots of complaints about the update to the dish anywhere mobile app, but am not seeing any. It used to look just like the desktop webpage. Now you can no longer filter by sports channels or movie channels. Plus that they made it look like a big button telephone and you see fewer channels in the screen which requires more scrolling. Yes I realize you can look at sports then select which sport you want to look at, I just liked being able to see all sporting events in the guide with all other channels being filtered out. Am I alone in the wilderness on this?
3 Replies · 45 views
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Juan
Not alot of dish customers any more
Foxbat
I'm not a big fan of the new layout, especially on my Apple TV. It used to look like the old Guide layout on the Hopper 3, but they changed parts of that, too.
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dishstaller
I really dislike change for the sake of change
TheRatPatrol
Last reply · posted in TV Shows
Anyone else watch this show? Any guesses as to what was in the box Gibbs gave to Abby that was on her desk? It look liked it was glowing.

I also heard that someone was leaving the show at the end of this season. Any guesses as to who thats going to be?
2132 Replies · 214680 views
Jimbo

Howard ...
You don't like Tony, or Tony as the Director (he's only been there for 30 seconds now) or you don't like NCIS ?
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Howard Simmons
Howard ...
You don't like Tony, or Tony as the Director (he's only been there for 30 seconds now) or you don't like NCIS ?
Tony as the director.🙄
Jimbo
Tony as the director.🙄
Would you rather have LaRoche ???
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dfergie
I liked this episode and a toned down Tony...
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Howard Simmons
Would you rather have LaRoche ???
No. Bring in someone new.🤔 Tony is not serious enough for me. Parker is too close to the team and Tim is too young to take over IMO.
Jimbo
No. Bring in someone new.🤔 Tony is not serious enough for me. Parker is too close to the team and Tim is too young to take over IMO.
I don't think Tim and Tony are that far apart in Age ...

Remember what Tony said to Tim when they first got back together ...
Tony said: I am the New Tony, Tim .... (something to that effect)

Tony has changed, he's been running his Security Business ... I'm sure he has grown up.

Give it time ... your judging the New Tony from the old Tony.

It sounds like Tim won't be around the Team much longer either.
dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in Movie Talk
Might be worth a watch when it comes out. Looks like typical big corp against the little guy movie BUT....there is a reason this plot type is so oft repeated, it draws audiences.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-f9OGsKHd4
1 Replies · 7 views
dishstaller
BTW, I noticed right after I posted this that someone else had already mentioned it....sorry for the duplicate thread. Still looking forward to seeing the movie.
meStevo
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in Movie Talk
If you're going try to read / listen to the book (can't recommend the audio book enough) before this comes out, I'd avoid trailers.

Trailer below, spoiling it to make sure you read the above bold message first. The book / audio book are fantastic. Go into this blind if you can IMO!




Kind of disappointed at how much they show. A lot still to see, but man, some good reveals in the book that are just served up here.
21 Replies · 713 views
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meStevo
I've seen it twice. Can't recommend the audio book enough, Ray Porter's performance is amazing and there's so much more in the book than the movie.
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Foxbat
"Project Hail Mary" should be on Prime Video starting Friday, July 3.
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K
Forgot to comment. I did watch when it first came out on MGM. I enjoyed it a lot. I think reading the book made it easier to watch. Several friends commented it was a little hard to follow.
TRG
TRG
"astrophage". I read the book but didn't see the film yet.
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Howard Simmons
"Project Hail Mary" should be on Prime Video starting Friday, July 3.
That's what I will be watching this weekend.🤗
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K
Kindle book on sale for $2.99 today at Amazon.
dishstaller
.........there's so much more in the book than the movie.
I agree. That can go for pretty much any book vs movie. Back when I was single I would read any Stephen King or John Grisham book I could get my hands on. When you read a book you make up the scenes and characters in your mind.....the movie version always disappoints.
meStevo
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section
Schedule drops tomorrow. Mandatory mini camps in June. Hall of Fame game August 6th.
110 Replies · 1610 views
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Y
Selfish Drake Maye holds back on giving the ball to Bills unlike Jags game, gets the win on the road.
Y
Selfish Drake Maye holds back on giving the ball to Bills unlike Jags game, gets the win on the road.
A big win for the Patriots, and they are now 3-2.

Browns lose a close one with... The Jets. That is a classic Browns loss (granted, any loss is a classic one it seems). 49'ers, Vikings, and Chiefs remain undefeated. The AFC north have a three way tie at 3-2 for second place. :eek:
osu1991
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M
Hopefully nowhere near a microphone.
Y
Hopefully nowhere near a microphone.
After having experienced Gus Ferguson trying to call soccer games, I'm uncertain why NFL football analysts get hate. Even the "worst" of them are pretty good.
meStevo
Jalen Hurts out indefinitely as they treat and monitor a superficial blood clot in his leg.


View: https://x.com/RapSheet/status/2111074303185989663?s=20
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dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
· posted in TV Shows
I had quit watching this show years ago because I ended up more annoyed than entertained. Well......I'm STILL more annoyed than entertained. I DO find it interesting to see how things work behind the scenes at many businesses. What annoys me is how utterly out of touch CEOs are with the companies they run. At the end of almost every episode the head of the company is amazed at how hard the employees have to work and many times have to work around impossible guidelines set forth from headquarters.

I found this one interesting because the new CEO had big plans for this company, Muscle Maker Grill, and it looked like the stores were all pretty busy. Recent history hasn't been good to this company however. I bet the covid lockdowns were the real killer.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhZm0qkz0o
0 Replies · 5 views
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68500 Replies · 2670802 views
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ClarkGable
White Wedding - Billy Idol
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M
White Christmas - Elvis Presley
dishstaller
Dirty White Boy - Foreigner
Bobby
Tickle Me (Dirty, Dirty Feeling) - Elvis Presley
dishstaller
Dirty Diana - Michael Jackson