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porkpiehat said:

I have butted heads with Joel for years.

That said, he has done a great job with STARS.

Shame on you, Scott, for posting so many outright lies

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Ok Porkie, name me 3 things that Joel has done for STARS. And not something made up, but something he actually did to advance the organization?

Name one company has approached to see if they could forge an alliance for better prices?

Name one person at Dish or Direct he has contacted to see if the group could work with them to get better rates or more work?

Name anyone in the industry he has actually talked to to see if any of the goals were possible?

The answer to all the above is: NONE

These are all things that require no money to do. Maybe a few phone calls or e-mails. And the time he spends bashing others to save himself is the same time he could be making these contacts.

How would it look if he could actually say some day that he talked to someone in the industry and they were willing to talk or help? Now that would impress me.

If I was president, the first thing I would be doing before asking for money would be contacting Dave at Dish and see what he thinks the group could do as a whole. I would be contacting every distributor about what we could obtain for special pricing, I would contact each and everyone involved in the industry and ask them what the group should do to become a partner with them.

Want me to call? I have all the phone numbers and contacts. I have been in business for over 30 years, I know most of them personally.

All I have heard from Joel since the start has been half truths at the least and complete lies at the most.

Hell, I remember one time when he mentioned in that other site that he had someone who wanted to contribute $100,000 to help start the group and that of course was based on the group getting non profit, charitable organization status from the IRS. Hell for a while he even proclaimed to people it was already done. I know of 5 people who were convinced that they would join and get their dues taken off their taxes.

Way to much has gone wrong and been said to save STARS short of Joel getting out completely. But since no one else wants the job, I guess he stays.

One more question Porkie, have you joined and paid
the dues? Getting screwed hurts doesn't it. Hoping it will be alright and wishing it to be ok, don't make it OK. Just bite the bullet and realize that unless a new leader comes forward, STARS will go no where and your money is gone.

thecristman said:

Name one company has approached to see if they could forge an alliance for better prices?

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None since we learned it's not legal. Non-profits can not do anything, especially forming alliances, that would benefit it's members financially over competing companies.

thecristman said:

Name one person at Dish or Direct he has contacted to see if the group could work with them to get better rates or more work?

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None. Absolutely illegal for a non-profit to negotiate rates and work for it's members over other companies in a like industry.

thecristman said:

Name anyone in the industry he has actually talked to to see if any of the goals were possible?

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I guess that depends on what you call "anyone in the industry". If you mean vendors and providers, as I already stated, we can't. They "may" come to us and offer incentives, but we may not approach them.

Don't believe me? Check out the sbca's web site and what they offer. Do you see any offers from P10, DSI, etc.? Do you see any better rates offered by DTV/Dish through the sbca? Of course not. It's not allowed.

thecristman said:

How would it look if he could actually say some day that he talked to someone in the industry and they were willing to talk or help? Now that would impress me.

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We've made arrangements with <withheld> to take over the <withheld> certification curriculum and standards. The STARS standards would be the <withheld>'s standards and vice-versa. Isn't that one of the main missions of STARS? To set and teach (not just charge for testing) industry standards? The training committee has been involved with this trying to decide if we have the volunteer manpower to take on such a huge undertaking. I can't release the name yet because they want to do a press release... and since we haven't committed to it yet, they won't announce it. I won't commit to it yet because I don't think we have enough people (volunteers) to handle it.

thecristman said:

All I have heard from Joel since the start has been half truths at the least and complete lies at the most.

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Name one please.

thecristman said:

Hell, I remember one time when he mentioned in that other site that he had someone who wanted to contribute $100,000 to help start the group and that of course was based on the group getting non profit, charitable organization status from the IRS. Hell for a while he even proclaimed to people it was already done.

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Nope, that wasn't me. And it wasn't to help start the group. And no one said it was already done. Please get your facts straight. It was dependent on getting 501(c)3 status, but the board decided not to even attempt that, instead going for the 501(c)6 status. With that, the donor may still make small donations to help with various things, but not the entire $100,000 since we won't be a charitable organization.

thecristman said:

I know of 5 people who were convinced that they would join and get their dues taken off their taxes.

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And why wouldn't they? 501(c)3 or 501(c)6, what difference does it make? It's still a non-profit and it's deductible.

Trying to earn money to pay for expenses in a non-profit is not easy. You are not allowed to make any income from the industry you're associated with. In fact, if you read up on non-profits, you'll see they say they are expected to get the most of their money from membership dues and donations. We can make money selling t-shirts, running advertisements on our web site, etc., but not much more then that. If you make money using labor, it is taxable and you'll most likely lose the non-profit status. We can't even buy in bulk and resell it (to save members money), as that would be a taxable direct-sale.

We're doing what we can with what we have, plus working to pay our own bills. If you know anyone that has so much money and time on their hands that they can put more time into it, please ask them to join and run for office next year.

What does a prospective member get for their $99-$199?

I'll answer it again, so please don't say we keep avoiding the question.

Not much other than a listing in the Locator service. However, we are working on several fronts to bring standardization, training and marketing benefits to it's members in the hope of showing the consumers and clients that they can trust that a local STARS member is going to provide a truly "professional" service (vs. the hacks that have taken over our industry). These things take time and will not happen overnight. Your membership dues go towards covering the costs of running the organization, I.E. filing fees, web site costs, PO Box, etc. Never has, nor will a single penny go into the pocket of any member. If you believe in what we are trying to do, join. If you want to wait, wait. But please stop saying I or any member is out to steal anyone's money. That is flatly untrue.

What do you get for your $320 by joining the SBCA (as a retailer member)? Not much other than a listing in their Locator service... and a window decal (we're working on that, too BTW). As a Technician Member ($50), you don't even get a locator listing.

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Cant say that I've ever run across any grassroots orginization that has kept any of its doings hush hush when it came to what it was atempting to do, who it talks with to reach any of its goals, and where the money goes that its members pay out on a yearly basis. Personaly I'd like to see what the whole thing is about but I dont have the funds to test the waters and without knowing wether the concrete is starting to harden or if its mush.

Like others I would really like to see an orginization rise up to help bring some control to the industry and save it from itsself, it should be obvious to anyone that it is now controlled almost completely by the customer driven " I want it free!!" and that has changed the companies inquestion and it cascades down.

Van said:

Cant say that I've ever run across any grassroots orginization that has kept any of its doings hush hush when it came to what it was atempting to do, who it talks with to reach any of its goals, and where the money goes that its members pay out on a yearly basis. Personaly I'd like to see what the whole thing is about but I dont have the funds to test the waters and without knowing wether the concrete is starting to harden or if its mush.

Like others I would really like to see an orginization rise up to help bring some control to the industry and save it from itsself, it should be obvious to anyone that it is now controlled almost completely by the customer driven " I want it free!!" and that has changed the companies inquestion and it cascades down.

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IMO...and to rephrase what Van has already stated...any sort DBS installs is eventually going to be only fulfillment work. Whether it's DNS, RSP, HSP, etc. I just feel it's a case of a little too little too late. The good retailers have migrated to greener pastures. And if anyone wants a future in DBS they're going to have to be willing to work with one of the previously stated fulfillment entities.

So that just leaves the "gimmee, gimmee, gimmee...free, free, free" crowd that is so used to what the cable companies gave. Too bad it comes at a price. Hack work. Lax customer service. And, generally speaking...crummy wages. I would like to see STARS succeed. That's why I asked Scott earlier what sort of ideas he had. Maybe not as a leader of STARS. It sounds like his plate is pretty full. And from what he stated, it feels like a lost cause.

What Stars needs to do now is pick on think that they hope to accomplish and go for it. The way they are now they cant be the be all end all of the satellite industry (at least not at this point in time)

Pick on area they want to concor and then go for it.

Personally (and I said this at the Stars website) they fact that they are trying to do this as a non profit organization is a mistake and will prevent them from ultimately doing what they want to do. I think thats obvious from Joels post above that this is going to be an issue.

Again I sit back and watch to see what steps are next, it will be interesting to see where Stars goes from here.

Scott Greczkowski said:

What Stars needs to do now is pick on think that they hope to accomplish and go for it. The way they are now they cant be the be all end all of the satellite industry (at least not at this point in time)

Pick on area they want to concor and then go for it.

Personally (and I said this at the Stars website) they fact that they are trying to do this as a non profit organization is a mistake and will prevent them from ultimately doing what they want to do. I think thats obvious from Joels post above that this is going to be an issue.

Again I sit back and watch to see what steps are next, it will be interesting to see where Stars goes from here.

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Very, very true. I did not realize the non profit status really slows down...and even stops...a lot of the ideas and things I would love to see STARS change.

Maybe I was reading the posts in the wrong "mental voice", but I have to give Joel credit. To me at least, there was a ton of negativity thrown at him and he could very well have said "piss off". Instead, he did a very good job in keeping the tone to a professional one.

CableSux said:

None since we learned it's not legal. Non-profits can not do anything, especially forming alliances, that would benefit it's members financially over competing companies.
You just answered all my questions. You can't do anything. So you yourself just proved how little your group can do.


None. Absolutely illegal for a non-profit to negotiate rates and work for it's members over other companies in a like industry.
Again, then what is worth $199?


I guess that depends on what you call "anyone in the industry". If you mean vendors and providers, as I already stated, we can't. They "may" come to us and offer incentives, but we may not approach them.

Don't believe me? Check out the sbca's web site and what they offer. Do you see any offers from P10, DSI, etc.? Do you see any better rates offered by DTV/Dish through the sbca? Of course not. It's not allowed.
SBCA was started as a training and certification company, period. ANd you only pay them for the actual certification, and not up front.


We've made arrangements with <withheld> to take over the <withheld> certification curriculum and standards. The STARS standards would be the <withheld>'s standards and vice-versa. Isn't that one of the main missions of STARS? To set and teach (not just charge for testing) industry standards? The training committee has been involved with this trying to decide if we have the volunteer manpower to take on such a huge undertaking. I can't release the name yet because they want to do a press release... and since we haven't committed to it yet, they won't announce it. I won't commit to it yet because I don't think we have enough people (volunteers) to handle it.



Name one please.



Nope, that wasn't me. And it wasn't to help start the group. And no one said it was already done. Please get your facts straight. It was dependent on getting 501(c)3 status, but the board decided not to even attempt that, instead going for the 501(c)6 status. With that, the donor may still make small donations to help with various things, but not the entire $100,000 since we won't be a charitable organization.



And why wouldn't they? 501(c)3 or 501(c)6, what difference does it make? It's still a non-profit and it's deductible.
Non profit does not make it deductible. Sure it may ne deductible as a business expense, but not at the better rate as a 501(c)3 does. Don't get into an arguement about that with me. I know, I have started 4 non profits and know the laws very well.
Trying to earn money to pay for expenses in a non-profit is not easy. You are not allowed to make any income from the industry you're associated with. In fact, if you read up on non-profits, you'll see they say they are expected to get the most of their money from membership dues and donations. We can make money selling t-shirts, running advertisements on our web site, etc., but not much more then that. If you make money using labor, it is taxable and you'll most likely lose the non-profit status. We can't even buy in bulk and resell it (to save members money), as that would be a taxable direct-sale.

We're doing what we can with what we have, plus working to pay our own bills. If you know anyone that has so much money and time on their hands that they can put more time into it, please ask them to join and run for office next year.

What does a prospective member get for their $99-$199?

I'll answer it again, so please don't say we keep avoiding the question.

Not much other than a listing in the Locator service. However, we are working on several fronts to bring standardization, training and marketing benefits to it's members in the hope of showing the consumers and clients that they can trust that a local STARS member is going to provide a truly "professional" service (vs. the hacks that have taken over our industry). These things take time and will not happen overnight. Your membership dues go towards covering the costs of running the organization, I.E. filing fees, web site costs, PO Box, etc. Never has, nor will a single penny go into the pocket of any member. If you believe in what we are trying to do, join. If you want to wait, wait. But please stop saying I or any member is out to steal anyone's money. That is flatly untrue.

What do you get for your $320 by joining the SBCA (as a retailer member)? Not much other than a listing in their Locator service... and a window decal (we're working on that, too BTW). As a Technician Member ($50), you don't even get a locator listing. That alone violates the very laws you stated above. The law clearly sates that as a non profit you cannot do anything to promote the mebers of the group. So that makes the listing itself illegal. And how do you get the customer to want to even go to the locator? Most if not all systems installed today are installed by HSP's and others and the customer has no say in who installs the system when they buy it unless they buy it from a dealer that installs.

.

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I am not trying to be the trouble maker for STARS. I grew up in the industry. My father was in business for 45 years and had the reputation as honest and hard working. I saw him lose half his business 10 years ago when all the big box stores started selling products for less than he could buy them for. He was among of group of dealers that through his hard work and honesty put companies like RCA and Sony and the likes in customers houses. Guys like him built the reputations of these companies and then after 30 years of hard work, the big companies crap on them and give all the best deals and service to the Best Buys and Wal Marts.

Then comes Directv. I was among the first Direct dealers in the midwest. To be a dealer then you had to pay for and attend multiple classes. Then you had to buy a kiosk and tv display with a laser disc to show customers what the system would look like. Lot's of promises were made. Among them was lifetime programming commissions and great rates for activating receivers. At first there was great money to be made. Then slowly everything that was promised was taken away. The commisions stopped, the lifetime programming commisions disappeared. Then sales switched from local dealers to huge national dealers with large phone banks. Then they started to dictate how much you would be paid to install and that kept going lower and lower.

I watched as people like Dave Robinson of DSI went from a little company to a powerhouse by taking control of Directv equipment sales and programming in certain areas. I think I have been in a unique position to see the industry as a whole more than a lot of the members of this group. I don't know most of the ages of all members and their time in the business, but I will guess that a large percentage of you don't know the whole business as far as how it all started and how it has changed.

I have seen people who worked their butts off to provide great service to their customers get run out of business by crappy installers. Now I realize that most of these problems were brought on by the satellite companies themselves but there has been a growing group of people in the industry that have found they can sit on their butts and take installs and then dole them out to subs for less and less money. You see them all the time, companies making deals with large sellers to do all their installs and the not pay on time or do numerous chargebacks to the installer. The posting groups are full of people who worked for these companies and never got paid in full and some not at all.

The main reason I have been on STARS back from the start is because to me it has always appeared to be yet another group that makes promises as long as you pay them first. I saw several of the biggest supporters of the group at first where among the companies that sit on their butts and doled out jobs that paid for some and in some cases none of them.

One of the biggest supporters of STARS in the start was Mike Hollinger of Damco. Mike has made a career of getting jobs and lining up techs nationwide to do the actual work and then finding numerous excuses not to pay. Even though he recieved his money. He has become quite good at writing contracts with little loopholes that he uses as excuses for not paying techs. But in all cases he gets paid.

So, if I sound cynical about STARS, then I have a good reason. It is called history. History of the business as a whole. So whenever I hear of yet another person or group that is going to be the saviour of the industry, don't knock me if I feel I need to bend over and grab my ankles.

If all the things that a group like STARS could do to help it's members cannot be done because of it's non profit status, then why was it decided to be a non profit? The money spent setting up that structure and keeping the books required do not make sense. If you really want to make a difference, then make it a for profit entity, the things you could do for the group as a whole outweigh any savings you may have by being non profit.

The mass exodus of board members and people not willing to accept the presidents position should be proof in itself that it cannot work as it is now set up.

We live in a time where with the internet there are many. many ways to make a program like this work. But being a non profit and being run by a guy who struggles to keep his head above water himself is not one of them.

I have never been against an organization like STARS, in fact I think it is sorely needed. But the way this has been started and run has been completely wrong. In order for STARS or any orginazation like it to really succeed is for it to be run by someone that is not actively day by day trying to keep his own head above water and someone who has no ties to others in the business that he may favor over someone else.

But, all the arguing in the world wil not make it better. So for me, the issue of STARS is dead. I will welcome and possibly embrace any ideas of groups like it, but as it is set up now, any group that has to spend the majority of their time defending themselves instead of helping the group as a whole, cannot work.