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elder

Last reply Dec 28, 2009 · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

Empirical Antenna Solutions

When my DT13 moved to VHF it was a stretch for my LaCrosse antenna. Antenna position for analog ch13 was always a multi-path battle which changed with seasons.

As I was re-pointing the LaCrosse my wife noticed that reception was better when I was touching the coax. I tried various things like grounding the shield at the feed point, but the final empirical solution was to twist a wire around the coax connector and connect the other end to a half folded dipole (J ) made of wire and inserted in the space between the planes of the LaCrosse.

Crazy, maybe but it took me from no bars to one or more on 13 and 33.

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highdefjeff

Sep 22, 2009

I was going to say that ALL I have IS empirical data. You beat me to it bebop. What cowboy requires is STATISTICAL data. Since I haven't the equipment or knowledge, I'm hoping he will test it.

It outperforms 2-bays, but remember this is an indoor antenna. It may not perform at all out of doors. I do expect it to perform better indoors, than a 2-bay that is outdoor, though (plus you get the VHF stations).

Since I can't get any good response using my video camera and old laptop, I've instead taken some pictures of how to make the fractals. They are the most difficult bit.

I don't screw the pieces onto a board. I make two halves and then mount them on a stick or anything. I made some where I used glass patch plastic to hold them apart. Then you can stick it in the window or behind a picture, wherever works best.

So to make the fractals I made a jig. I used three screws. Get a board and draw a 30 degree angle on it. Place one screw just inside the apex of the 30 degree angle. On both sides of the angle you drew, measure 1 and 5/8" from the apex and screw in two more screws. From there you can make easy, repeatable fractals.

I will also say that the distance between the two halves is 1 and 5/8" also. I made another one yesterday and closer than that is less effective. (Checked it just for you guys!)

Think about it though. I don't know anything except I use 14" wire to make 7" long bowties. The distance between fractal to fractal on one half is 7". The length between bends that make the fractal are 1 and 5/8". Certainly seems to me that 1 and 5/8" should be the proper distance between the halves.

1. Place your bowtie over the screw at the apex and inside the other two screws.
2. bend the remaining lengths outward back toward the apex until straight across.
3. Reposition the element.
4. Finish one side
5. Reposition the element
6. Finish the other side.

CowboyDren

Sep 22, 2009

highdefjeff said:
I was going to say that ALL I have IS empirical data. You beat me to it bebop. What cowboy requires is STATISTICAL data. Since I haven't the equipment or knowledge, I'm hoping he will test it.

Wrong. What you have is ANECDOTAL data. EMPIRICAL data is backed up with research and analysis with proper metering equipment and/or lab simulation. ANECDOTAL data is the story you get from trial-and-error, which is all I've seen so far. I'm not calling you a liar, not by any stretch...I believe that you have observed good results. But you can also get good results from any number of options that aren't repeatable or even a good idea to start with (Re: Aluminum Foil Niece). Without some hard data, it's impossible to guess which situations are candidates for your antenna.

It outperforms 2-bays, but remember this is an indoor antenna. It may not perform at all out of doors. I do expect it to perform better indoors, than a 2-bay that is outdoor, though (plus you get the VHF stations).

I have to hit the BS buzzer on that one. If it works indoors, it'll work better outdoors. Adding obstructions (walls, roofing material, EMI from AC power lines) never improves reception. There are specific situations where you can introduce noise outside or introduce a phase or multipath problem that wasn't present inside the living room, but that's circumstantial.

So to make the fractals I made a jig. I used three screws. Get a board and draw a 30 degree angle on it. Place one screw just inside the apex of the 30 degree angle. On both sides of the angle you drew, measure 1 and 5/8" from the apex and screw in two more screws. From there you can make easy, repeatable fractals.

Working with a theoretical model (not actual wire) the distance between apexes should be 1-3/4", so your jig with 1-5/8" spacing sounds about right.

I will also say that the distance between the two halves is 1 and 5/8" also. I made another one yesterday and closer than that is less effective. (Checked it just for you guys!)

That's 100% inline with current practices; closer feed lines usually make things worse. But the gauge is still an unknown variable.

I've never built a simulation before, but I've bent a few antennas. I'm having a hard time with the software, but as soon as I get results, bad or good, you guys will be the first to know, and it'll be in this thread.

highdefjeff

Sep 23, 2009

CowboyDren said:
Wrong. What you have is ANECDOTAL data. EMPIRICAL data is backed up with research and analysis with proper metering equipment and/or lab simulation. ANECDOTAL data is the story you get from trial-and-error, which is all I've seen so far. I'm not calling you a liar, not by any stretch...I believe that you have observed good results. But you can also get good results from any number of options that aren't repeatable or even a good idea to start with (Re: Aluminum Foil Niece). Without some hard data, it's impossible to guess which situations are candidates for your antenna.

I'll offer this link in regards to empirical data:
define:empirical - Google Search

The application for this antenna is indoor use. It should be used to replace any situation where rabbit ears are or were used. It performs extremely well in high multi-path and high interference environments. (Which is where we are all headed anyway. I'm not guessing, I've been trying these everywhere I get a chance. They've worked when nothing else worked, or something larger had been needed. This is what I know. I've been researching low signal artifacting for three years. I've carried rabbit ears with me to help see what kind of signal a place gets to help determine what antenna might be needed.

I have to hit the BS buzzer on that one. If it works indoors, it'll work better outdoors. Adding obstructions (walls, roofing material, EMI from AC power lines) never improves reception. There are specific situations where you can introduce noise outside or introduce a phase or multipath problem that wasn't present inside the living room, but that's circumstantial.

Buzz ya back. I thought that same thing...until I took it outside. Worthless outside when I tried it. Grabbit Ears loves multi-path. (And multi-path signals are all you get inside.) It likes to be right next to a wall or a window much better than 3 or 4 or more inches from the wall or window. It lies flat very well, too.

Working with a theoretical model (not actual wire) the distance between apexes should be 1-3/4", so your jig with 1-5/8" spacing sounds about right.
That's 100% inline with current practices; closer feed lines usually make things worse. But the gauge is still an unknown variable.

I've never built a simulation before, but I've bent a few antennas. I'm having a hard time with the software, but as soon as I get results, bad or good, you guys will be the first to know, and it'll be in this thread.

I didn't realize you were working on simulation data. I thought you could build one and test it. Test data is the information I'm most interested in.

CowboyDren

Sep 23, 2009

Touché. I've been running with engineers for so long, and their definition implies proof of theory, beyond just tinkering blindly. I stand corrected.

I will continue working on simulations, though, and keep you posted as progress is made. Who knows, maybe you have stumbled upon the better mouse trap. It's just that I have a real problem with stumbling in the dark when there's a perfectly good lantern available.

bebop

Sep 23, 2009

highdefjeff said:
I was going to say that ALL I have IS empirical data. You beat me to it bebop. What cowboy requires is STATISTICAL data. Since I haven't the equipment or knowledge, I'm hoping he will test it.

It outperforms 2-bays, but remember this is an indoor antenna. It may not perform at all out of doors. I do expect it to perform better indoors, than a 2-bay that is outdoor, though (plus you get the VHF stations).

Since I can't get any good response using my video camera and old laptop, I've instead taken some pictures of how to make the fractals. They are the most difficult bit.

I don't screw the pieces onto a board. I make two halves and then mount them on a stick or anything. I made some where I used glass patch plastic to hold them apart. Then you can stick it in the window or behind a picture, wherever works best.

So to make the fractals I made a jig. I used three screws. Get a board and draw a 30 degree angle on it. Place one screw just inside the apex of the 30 degree angle. On both sides of the angle you drew, measure 1 and 5/8" from the apex and screw in two more screws. From there you can make easy, repeatable fractals.

I will also say that the distance between the two halves is 1 and 5/8" also. I made another one yesterday and closer than that is less effective. (Checked it just for you guys!)

Think about it though. I don't know anything except I use 14" wire to make 7" long bowties. The distance between fractal to fractal on one half is 7". The length between bends that make the fractal are 1 and 5/8". Certainly seems to me that 1 and 5/8" should be the proper distance between the halves.

1. Place your bowtie over the screw at the apex and inside the other two screws.
2. bend the remaining lengths outward back toward the apex until straight across.
3. Reposition the element.
4. Finish one side
5. Reposition the element
6. Finish the other side.

Great idea. Thanks for the follow-up instruction. I just free handed the fractals for my first attempt. I'm sure I'd get better results if I made them uniform and proper spacing. If I ever get some time I might try it this way. I'm big on pictures, so those help the most.

Forgive me if I missed it, but what is the distance between the two ends of one fractal after it is all bent into shape?

highdefjeff

Sep 25, 2009

Approximately 2.5 to 2.75"

highdefjeff

Dec 28, 2009

CowboyDren said:
I have to hit the BS buzzer on that one. If it works indoors, it'll work better outdoors.

You're right CowboyDren! I was way wrong on this one!

Grabbit Ears DO work much better outside. My problem was I was trying to use them "vertically" the way they hang inside. Using them this way is only a little better and they are somewhat directional.

Then it hit me to try them flat. WOW! Omnidirectional too.

And from the last "batch" I made, I think I've discovered a detail that I missed. The fractals are not "perpendicular to the feed lines. They are angled out from the center at about 105 degrees. Picture added.

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mheisen

21 minutes ago · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

Hopper 3 with Hopper plus internet connection problems

Over the past few weeks, I have had problems connecting to streaming services (Netflix, HBO et al). When I go to the TV's native Channels, I have no problem. The Dish internet troubleshooter shows I have a good internet connection. I'm wondering whether it's an issue with my internet provider or a problem with the Dish software on the Hopper Plus. Anyone else seeing this?

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Scott Greczkowski

Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge

Last reply 31 minutes ago · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Song Name Game Part 3!

Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne

Get it?

An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....

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FTA4PA

Today at 1:58 PM

Drift Away - Dobie Gray

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long_time_Dish

Today at 3:24 PM

Throwing It All Away - Genesis

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dishstaller

Today at 4:47 PM

All I Need is a Miracle - Mike + The Mechanics

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gms49ers

Today at 5:54 PM

Sweet Miracle - Rush

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long_time_Dish

31 minutes ago

Sweet Baby James - James Taylor

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JSheridan

Lifetime Supporter

Last reply 43 minutes ago · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

All DMA's now Western Arc

I know HipKat said that they were working on conversions but we got the official news yesterday right from Dish that starting next month all DMA's will be on the western arc, and all customers will be assigned to that. That's gonna mean a lot of customers around here aren't gonna get Dish unless there are exceptions. Too many mountains and trees.

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MikeD-C05

Sep 26, 2026

I don't know why DISH doesn't just start a streaming version of DISH and then if you can't see the western arc you go with streaming versions and then they could keep customers if they had good internet speeds. I mean Sling TV could be changed to Streaming DISH TV if they wanted since both companies are under Echostar. Then you would still be able to use your ota antenna with Air TV devices like I do with Air TV Anywhere with 4 ota tuners.

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Scott Greczkowski

Sep 26, 2026

MikeD-C05 said:
I don't know why DISH doesn't just start a streaming version of DISH

I have the same wish.

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bnewt

Monday at 3:30 PM

Scott Greczkowski said:
I have the same wish.

Why?
A lot of people do not have fast internet.
That is why they use satellite

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Scott Greczkowski

Monday at 4:56 PM

bnewt said:
Why?
A lot of people do not have fast internet.
That is why they use satellite

They keep the satellite service too. But have. Full streaming version of dish. As sling tv sucks eggs.

Reactions: JSheridan, MikeD-C05 and charlesrshell

telstar_1

Monday at 8:12 PM

Why didn't Charlie end up launching starlink

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Almighty1

Yesterday at 4:04 PM

telstar_1 said:
Why didn't Charlie end up launching starlink

He does not have the resources aka $$$ compared to Elon Musk as in reality, Elon can eat Charlie for lunch or even mop the floor with Charlie if he wanted to.

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slow_poke_pete

Yesterday at 4:58 PM

ment to 20 yrs dam phone

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BradleyD

Yesterday at 11:57 PM

Dish should use both satellite and internet like they do now for all channels. Use either or or both.... like now but subscribers could choose something like internet only, or sat only, or both.

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slow_poke_pete

Today at 1:01 AM

BradleyD said:
Dish should use both satellite and internet like they do now for all channels. Use either or or both.... like now but subscribers could choose something like internet only, or sat only, or both.

They have sling tv wich sucks ass it needs a major upgrade

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slow_poke_pete

43 minutes ago

Scott Greczkowski said:
They keep the satellite service too. But have. Full streaming version of dish. As sling tv sucks eggs.

can you DVR every channel now or is still only certain ones you can DVR

Reactions: charlesrshell

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dishstaller

Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 7:28 PM · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Well crap....Donnie Iris died today

RIP dude. Always liked his music. He was 83

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH5Arbm47IQ

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dishstaller

Yesterday at 1:03 AM

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFmPEgNuELM

FTA4PA

Yesterday at 10:20 AM

R.I.P.

Mr Tony

Yesterday at 10:28 AM

R.I.P.

Foxbat

Today at 6:01 PM

Rest in Peace…

dfergie

Today at 7:28 PM

R.I.P. …

Ramy

Supporting Founder

Last reply Today at 7:26 PM · posted in The Sports Section

2026-27 NCAA College Football

Really excited for this season with Kentucky having a new coach and some really exciting recruits. Probably won't last long, but here's hoping this season is great.

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Yespage

Monday at 3:04 PM

You mean other than Miami being in the final last year... and Indiana being the only bye team to win a game?

Jimbo

Monday at 9:19 PM

Yespage said:
You mean other than Miami being in the final last year... and Indiana being the only bye team to win a game?

No, I was actually referring to outside of the Top 8, but should have been Top 12 ...

I guess I should have looked at the bracket from last year first ...

I'm more thinking about them trying to expect a 15 to beat a 5 seed or there abouts .

Ronnie-

Yesterday at 7:24 AM

Jimbo said:
I'm more thinking about them trying to expect a 15 to beat a 5 seed or there abouts .

I mean you get upsets all the time.

Just a couple of weeks ago. Unranked Florida knocked off number 7 texas. Unranked Auburn beat number 1 Georgia.

This week unranked Cincinnati beat number 8 texas Tech. Unranked UCF beat number 2 BYU.

No reason to think similar upsets wont happen in the playoffs where a low seed can upset a higher one.

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AZ.

Yesterday at 7:53 AM

Ronnie- said:
I mean you get upsets all the time.

Just a couple of weeks ago. Unranked Florida knocked off number 7 texas. Unranked Auburn beat number 1 Georgia.

This week unranked Cincinnati beat number 8 texas Tech. Unranked UCF beat number 2 BYU.

No reason to think similar upsets wont happen in the playoffs where a low seed can upset a higher one.

Yep, wonder why we rank the top 25 in 2 poles still? Do the ranking change much if they are unranked or have many loses? They sure do, any given day never take your opponent as a cake walk.....

Jimbo

Yesterday at 8:20 AM

Ronnie- said:
I mean you get upsets all the time.

Just a couple of weeks ago. Unranked Florida knocked off number 7 texas. Unranked Auburn beat number 1 Georgia.

This week unranked Cincinnati beat number 8 texas Tech. Unranked UCF beat number 2 BYU.

No reason to think similar upsets wont happen in the playoffs where a low seed can upset a higher one.

Correct, you Do get upsets from time to time ....however .
You Don't get teams UPSETTING teams for 5 weeks in a row.

They are trying to make this Basketball and its a far cry from the way that is played.

How long till they go to 32 teams ? Then they will say, well, the NFL is 32 teams, we can make more money that way .... except the NFL is 32 teams, that are a set number of teams and divisions, you don't have that in College ... oh but they will try.

They would have to choose what teams they would want in and thats it.
Hopefully that NEVER happens.

I can see the NCAA going away and the CFP taking that portion over and a Collective Bargaining agreement coming in the not to distant future.

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rvvaquero

Yesterday at 8:45 AM

The problem with rankings and playoffs is that they are designed to hype the game and make money. Period.

The only reason that BYU and Texas Tech were upsets is that they were hyped up in the standings in the first place. I love watching BYU and Bear Bachmeier. They are a fun and talented team, but not nearly so strong, fast, big, and skilled as a true top ten team. Does anyone truly believe they could compete with the likes of Georgia, Ohio State, Indiana, Alabama, etc.? Yet, they were ranked above those teams.

Each year, there are 10 to 12 teams who truly could compete for the championship if it depended on winning more than one game in a playoff. Including teams like James Madison, Tulane, BYU, etc. in a playoff has nothing to do with determining a national champion. It's just about money.

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Ronnie-

Today at 7:26 PM

Jimbo said:
Correct, you Do get upsets from time to time

Yes. As shown in a few posts now.

Jimbo said:
You Don't get teams UPSETTING teams for 5 weeks in a row.

.

But that wasn't what your stated argument was though.

I mean if you drag it out, no team even a favorite is gonna win every game 20 weeks in a row.

With the parity in college football now, who knows who can beat anyone at any given time?

This season and last have shown it might not be the ones we think that might win it all that will win it all.

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MartyDe

Last reply Today at 6:39 PM · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

ATSC 3 converter boxes

Interesting article about the work being done to develope an ATSC 3 converter box. Yes it does mention affordable.

Pearl TV Issues Progress Report on Low-Cost 3.0 Converters in Advance of NAB Show New York

Group has secured lower pricing from key tech players to make less costly boxes available

www.tvtechnology.com

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navychop

Oct 20, 2026

DEATH TO NEXGEN!

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primestar31

Oct 21, 2026

navychop said:
DEATH TO NEXGEN!

It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.

Reactions: slow_poke_pete, FTA4PA and navychop

Mister B

Thursday at 7:43 AM

What bothers me is the total waste of broadcasting spectrum in this very crowded market. It has been almost three years now since KFOX converted their broadcast tower to ATSC 3.0 and moved all of their channels to other towers causing noticeable degradation of the picture quality.
I have a Sony TV with 3.0 capabilities but still use the 1.0 version of locals due to the fact that one or all of the 3.0 channels are often missing or unwatchable. In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.
The only thing that could motivate me to be interested in 3.0 would be if all of the minor networks (diginets) could be in at least 720P rather than blurry ultra-compressed 480i.
Three years is long enough to waste one of the few available RF frequencies in the area for this trial.
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.

navychop

Thursday at 4:31 PM

Mister B said:
In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.

They might notice the hand going into their pocket for their wallet.

Reactions: FTA4PA

navychop

Thursday at 4:31 PM

Mister B said:
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.

QFT. Of course, my preference involves a curb and some kicking.

Reactions: FTA4PA

slow_poke_pete

Yesterday at 5:37 PM

primestar31 said:
It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.

WHAT ABOUT THE INTERNET PART OF IT. NO ONE WANTS A BOX CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET EITHER.

navychop

Yesterday at 9:47 PM

Cough, cough. COVID vaccine implants.

:oldlaugh

Reactions: HIFI

Foxbat

Today at 6:39 PM

navychop said:
Cough, cough. COVID vaccine implants.

That would be handy. Download the latest RNA snippets that can be updated over 5G and no more shots! You're a Genius!

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dishstaller

Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter

Last reply Today at 6:03 PM · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Is it click bait or is it real

Pretty cool.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18iLQXklJuU

1 Replies · 83 views

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Foxbat

Today at 6:03 PM

Meta Clickbait, clicking and watching the Video on Clickbait.

osu1991

Pub Member / Supporter

Last reply Today at 5:59 PM · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Susan Saint James, Emmy-Winning Star of 'Kate & Allie' and 'McMillan & Wife,' Dies at 80

Susan Saint James, Emmy-Winning Star of ‘Kate & Allie’ and ‘McMillan & Wife,’ Dies at 80

Susan Saint James, the Emmy-winning actress who starred in "Kate & Allie," died Monday after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She was 80.

variety.com

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FTA4PA

Yesterday at 8:53 PM

R.I.P.

dishstaller

Today at 10:09 AM

My Mom was a huge McMillan & Wife fan.

RIP

Reactions: Foxbat, FTA4PA, osu1991 and 1 other person

dfergie

Today at 1:03 PM

Mcmillan and wife was where I remember her from, R.I.P. ...

Reactions: Foxbat, osu1991 and dishstaller

Mr Tony

Today at 1:18 PM

R.I.P.

Foxbat

Today at 5:59 PM

Rest in Peace… I had forgotten she was Kate in "Kate and Allie", teamed with Jane Curtin.

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TheForce

Supporting Founder Pub Member / Supporter

Last reply Today at 5:39 PM · posted in The Phone & Tablet Zone

Apple Event September 2026

Apple Fall Hardware Event takes place today, September 9, 2026, at 10:00 a.m. PT / 1:00 p.m. ET. It marks the debut of new CEO John Ternus and the expected reveal of Apple's first foldable phone.

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Foxbat

Sunday at 7:05 PM

IFixIt has published their Teardown and they had some positive things to say about the iPhone Duo. It still showed some dust ingress into the hinge assembly but seemed otherwise well-sealed.

But with a considerable number of reports of the main screen dying with similar failures, AppleCare+ should be a no-brainer for this phone.

slow_poke_pete

Sunday at 8:32 PM

Foxbat said:
IFixIt has published their Teardown and they had some positive things to say about the iPhone Duo. It still showed some dust ingress into the hinge assembly but seemed otherwise well-sealed.

But with a considerable number of reports of the main screen dying with similar failures, AppleCare+ should be a no-brainer for this phone.

hope you have apple care a screen job is 1000.00

. can we say over priced garbage!!!

slow_poke_pete

Monday at 4:36 PM

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv0BssMerjA

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harshness

Yesterday at 10:17 AM

Gone are the days when Apple "perfects" what debuted years earlier on an Android phone.

comfortably_numb

Yesterday at 11:49 AM

harshness said:
Gone are the days when Apple "perfects" what debuted years earlier on an Android phone.

Or better yet, innovate something "completely revolutionary!"

slow_poke_pete

Today at 5:39 PM

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6x_VHuZW2k

Reactions: comfortably_numb

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TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Today at 5:32 PM · posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Intelligent Machines 894

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSBKxtzFi0Y

Direct YouTube Link - Intelligent Machines 894
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed