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C
CowboyDren
Last reply · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

Head Scratcher, 64772

I just got back from a hunting trip at Grandma's house; Dad got a nice, 180-lb white tail, and I got heartburn.

Her zip code is 64772 (Nevada, MO), and she's pretty far out there. Her main goals are KOAM-7 (ch7, 48mi), KFJX-14 (ch13(!), 48mi), and KODE-12 (ch 43, 55mi). It's really unfortunate that two of the three channels are VHF, but she has a decent combo antenna (10' boom, forward-swept VHF section, big UHF reflector), which used to do the job just fine using analog signals. Up until recently, a little Craig DTV converter box would also sometimes work to pull in channels.

I went down there this weekend armed with my cable prep tool, compression fittings and a Channel Master 7777 combo preamp, hoping that I could get her some more signal. According to my cable toner, the circuit from the TV end of the cable to the antenna is complete. Plugging in the 7777 didn't help, though; both her new Panasonic TC-P50X1 and my Dish DTVPal came up with zeros doing automatic scans.

My first mistake was that I didn't bring the TVFool report with me, not even the broadcast channel numbers. I didn't know that I was looking for ch 7, 13, and 43, so I couldn't tune to them and see if they blipped.

My second mistake was assuming that the balun was good. Because I got continuity, and I didn't bring another balun with me, and I didn't feel like dropping a 20' 1-5/8" fence pole to replace the balun, I still don't know if it got fried in a recent electrical storm.

Did I make any other mistakes, or is that balun probably the answer?

PS - Who the hell would take a perfectly good UHF station (14) and move it into VHF-Hi (13) for the transition?!?! It's like these broadcast engineers were trying to cut off viewers. :rant:
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64772 Radar-Digital.png
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C
CowboyDren
In RF theory, yes, VHF should be better (and was better for decades with analog transmissions). However, VHF and 8VSB is a provenly bad combination. Why do you think so many VHF channels are reapplying for UHF frequencies months after the digital transition? VHF vs UHF signal propagation shakes out to be about the same in the real world, if not actually favoring UHF in clear, flat terrain.
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G
GravelChan
I don't quite understand the problem people are having with VHF signals except perhaps with an indoor antenna in a urban setting. I'm in south central South Dakota and pick up 10 and 13 which are 58 miles north, and channel 7 which is 59 miles south with 90-100 signal strength. Also a UHF channel 19 about 60 miles north. These antennas are at 50' which of course helps.

Cut channel 13 and separate UHF antenna pointed north with a 7777 amp. So I'm picking up channel 7 (NE PBS) off the back of these antennas with 90-100 signal strength.

However, I have a friend west of me that has an antenna similar to your grandma's mounted in his attic (no amp) that picks up these same channels. The signal strength isn't what mine is but they do lock in fine.
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T
Tower Guy
CowboyDren said:
PS - Who the hell would take a perfectly good UHF station (14) and move it into VHF-Hi (13) for the transition?!?! It's like these broadcast engineers were trying to cut off viewers. :rant:
Click to expand...

That's a common feeling, but in your case it's wrong.

VHF usually works better for outdoor antennas than UHF. UHF outperforms VHF when you use indoor antennas.
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ericha
ericha
Tower Guy said:
That's a common feeling, but in your case it's wrong.

VHF usually works better for outdoor antennas than UHF. UHF outperforms VHF when you use indoor antennas.
Click to expand...

Why is that (UHF being better than VHF with an indoor antenna)? Is it because you can fit a higher-gain UHF antenna inside? For the same antenna gain, UHF should always be worse (since for the same gain the UHF antenna is smaller).
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J
JB Antennaman
Before I correct anyone for any mistakes that they made with their understanding of how UHF / VHF works on digital - let's fix your problem.

You have one antenna of unknown origin and several DTV converters.

If everything worked before you started, then the first guess would be that you did something wrong. The road to h311 is paved with good intentions.

Without knowing what wire you used, how long the length was and what kind of F type terminals you used, there is no way for me to diagnose what you did or did wrong. I was in the same situation a couple of months ago with a neighbors antenna. 32 feet off the ground, a 350 lbs man standing on a 250 lbs Werner Ladder. Trying to hook up a pre amp on the side of a 9/12 pitch roof - 3 tab granulated shingles with nothing below it but rocks and dirt. Not the kind of place where you would want to fall.

I gave my brother a safety line and a harness and sent him up on the roof while I worked off the ladder. I came to find out that one of the wires that I had crimped, I crimped wrong and it was shorting out. I cut every terminal off except one - and it was the one that was giving me fits. Right off the antenna going into the pre amp. 10 feet above the peak of the roof.

Give me the co ordinates for that location and the height of the antenna, so I can look at the real TV fool report and not just a picture of it and maybe I can make some suggestions. Keep in mind that I like to spend money - even more than a politician so don't be alarmed when I tell you what equipment you need to get reliable reception.

My guess is that channel 7 is the easiest channel to receive and you would not need any type of amplification for the VHF since the only other station VHF is channel 10 KLOR

A Winegard AP 4800 or a CM 7775 would be a better choice for a pre amplifier.

A CM 94444 balun is a pretty good choice if you are bound and determined to reuse the old antenna.
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J
JB Antennaman
GravelChan said:
I don't quite understand the problem people are having with VHF signals except perhaps with an indoor antenna in a urban setting. I'm in south central South Dakota and pick up 10 and 13 which are 58 miles north, and channel 7 which is 59 miles south with 90-100 signal strength. Also a UHF channel 19 about 60 miles north. These antennas are at 50' which of course helps.

Cut channel 13 and separate UHF antenna pointed north with a 7777 amp. So I'm picking up channel 7 (NE PBS) off the back of these antennas with 90-100 signal strength.

However, I have a friend west of me that has an antenna similar to your grandma's mounted in his attic (no amp) that picks up these same channels. The signal strength isn't what mine is but they do lock in fine.
Click to expand...

Signal strength means nothing to us due to the fact that there is no standard SWR - standing wave ratio between receivers and what is considered to be a strong signal by one manufacturer is not as good by another manufactures standards. What matters is the sensitivity of the receiver. In the old days it was determined by the quality of the first transistor in the front end of the receiver.

By determining what you have in your link budget, line loss, splitter loss, antenna gain, amplifier gain, free space loss, what ever is in your first and second fresnel zone and the power of the transmitter and the distance between the transmitter and the receive antenna - you can figure out how much signal is being received at your location.

Attic antenna's is a poor comparison due to the fact that although wood is not opaque to UHF signals, the building materials such as aluminum is. A piece of aluminum 6 inches wide between the antenna and the signal can be enough to block your signals. A vent stack in the attic will not block your signals, but the moisture inside of the pipe can. The same holds true with shingles. The shingles and plywood and trusses might not block your signal, but the moisture in the wood and the moisture under your shingles will.

You can loose 6 db or more just through the wall. Although this might be a acceptable amount of loss in a urban area, in a fringe reception area, it might be the difference between watching a television station and no reception at all.

With a digital signal, you can loose 70% of the signal and still have a good signal. BUT - once you loose 70% of the signal, anytime something comes between you and the signal you will experience drop outs. Be it rain, snow, fog, a airplane, a flock of birds, a swarm of bees, leaves in the trees, evergreens which never loose all it's needles at the same time etc.

Front to back is not a real reception term, it is just a generalization to explain how a antenna works and what you need to take into account when designing equipment for proper reception. If a antenna has a high front to back ratio, it also has poor rejection qualities and with a digital signal, it could cause more problems then it solves. Analog signals - you would experience ghosting - due to two of the same signals reaching the tuner at the same time. With a digital signal - it is all or nothing. The information that the tuner receives is all ones and zero's and when you corrupt digital information - it is worse then not having any information at all.

Like scratching a CD and then trying to play it in a CD player.
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C
CowboyDren
JB Antennaman said:
Before I correct anyone for any mistakes that they made with their understanding of how UHF / VHF works on digital - let's fix your problem.

You have one antenna of unknown origin and several DTV converters.

If everything worked before you started, then the first guess would be that you did something wrong.
Click to expand...

No. Only one tuner matters, the one in the TV, and it has never worked, because the TV is a week old. Several weeks ago, there was a heavy electrical storm that fried most of the telephone and TV gear inside and outside the house. The DTV converter box she has stopped working at the same time everything else did. I'm checking the balun and it's connection to the antenna next, but it's going to be a while.
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dodge
dodge
Replace the balun, it may be gone!!!
They are cheap
have you tried another tv or other convertor box??? They may be bad due to the storm!!!
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T
Tower Guy
CowboyDren said:
Why do you think so many VHF channels are reapplying for UHF frequencies months after the digital transition?
Click to expand...

There are many reasons;

Mobile TV to handheld devices works better on UHF than VHF. A station's future may depend on the income from handheld receivers.
Converter Boxes and DTV receivers have omitted FM traps needed to deal with strong FM stations. FM bothers VHF more than UHF. (All analog TVs had them.)
Many companies market UHF only antennas as DTV antennas.
Many viewers made the mistake of installing UHF antennas for DTV.
Distributed transmitters work better on UHF than VHF. The FCC approval for DTS took years to get approved.
The higher power needed to improve indoor VHF reception will cause interference to other nearby co-channel VHF stations.
There was a knee jerk reaction to converter box rescanning problems.

VHF continues to work better with outdoor antennas than UHF.
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T
Tower Guy
ericha said:
Why is that (UHF being better than VHF with an indoor antenna)? Is it because you can fit a higher-gain UHF antenna inside? For the same antenna gain, UHF should always be worse (since for the same gain the UHF antenna is smaller).
Click to expand...

In simple terms, the smaller waves on UHF fit through the windows better.
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M
MartyDe
Last reply · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info

ATSC 3 converter boxes

Interesting article about the work being done to develope an ATSC 3 converter box. Yes it does mention affordable.
www.tvtechnology.com

Pearl TV Issues Progress Report on Low-Cost 3.0 Converters in Advance of NAB Show New York

Group has secured lower pricing from key tech players to make less costly boxes available
www.tvtechnology.com www.tvtechnology.com
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navychop
primestar31
primestar31
navychop said:
DEATH TO NEXGEN!
Click to expand...
star trek GIF


It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.
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Mister B
Mister B
What bothers me is the total waste of broadcasting spectrum in this very crowded market. It has been almost three years now since KFOX converted their broadcast tower to ATSC 3.0 and moved all of their channels to other towers causing noticeable degradation of the picture quality.
I have a Sony TV with 3.0 capabilities but still use the 1.0 version of locals due to the fact that one or all of the 3.0 channels are often missing or unwatchable. In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.
The only thing that could motivate me to be interested in 3.0 would be if all of the minor networks (diginets) could be in at least 720P rather than blurry ultra-compressed 480i.
Three years is long enough to waste one of the few available RF frequencies in the area for this trial.
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.
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navychop
navychop
Mister B said:
In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.
Click to expand...

They might notice the hand going into their pocket for their wallet.
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navychop
navychop
Mister B said:
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.
Click to expand...

QFT. Of course, my preference involves a curb and some kicking.
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S
slow_poke_pete
primestar31 said:
star trek GIF


It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.
Click to expand...
WHAT ABOUT THE INTERNET PART OF IT. NO ONE WANTS A BOX CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET EITHER.
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navychop
navychop
Cough, cough. COVID vaccine implants.

:oldlaugh
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Foxbat
Foxbat
navychop said:
Cough, cough. COVID vaccine implants.

:oldlaugh
Click to expand...
That would be handy. Download the latest RNA snippets that can be updated over 5G and no more shots! You're a Genius!
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dishstaller
dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Is it click bait or is it real

Pretty cool.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18iLQXklJuU
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Foxbat
Foxbat
Meta Clickbait, clicking and watching the Video on Clickbait.
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dishstaller
dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Well crap....Donnie Iris died today

RIP dude. Always liked his music. He was 83


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH5Arbm47IQ
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dishstaller
FTA4PA
FTA4PA
R.I.P.
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M
Mr Tony
R.I.P.
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Foxbat
Foxbat
Rest in Peace…
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osu1991
osu1991
Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Susan Saint James, Emmy-Winning Star of 'Kate & Allie' and 'McMillan & Wife,' Dies at 80

variety.com

Susan Saint James, Emmy-Winning Star of ‘Kate & Allie’ and ‘McMillan & Wife,’ Dies at 80

Susan Saint James, the Emmy-winning actress who starred in "Kate & Allie," died Monday after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. She was 80.
variety.com variety.com
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FTA4PA
FTA4PA
R.I.P.
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dishstaller
dishstaller
My Mom was a huge McMillan & Wife fan.

RIP
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dfergie
dfergie
Mcmillan and wife was where I remember her from, R.I.P. ...
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M
Mr Tony
R.I.P.
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Foxbat
Foxbat
Rest in Peace… I had forgotten she was Kate in "Kate and Allie", teamed with Jane Curtin.
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Scott Greczkowski
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

Song Name Game Part 3!

Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
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Bobby
Bobby
If Love Must Go - Dobie Gray
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FTA4PA
FTA4PA
Drift Away - Dobie Gray
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long_time_Dish
long_time_Dish
Throwing It All Away - Genesis
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dishstaller
dishstaller
All I Need is a Miracle - Mike + The Mechanics
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gms49ers
gms49ers
Sweet Miracle - Rush
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TheForce
TheForce
Supporting Founder Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Phone & Tablet Zone

Apple Event September 2026

Apple Fall Hardware Event takes place today, September 9, 2026, at 10:00 a.m. PT / 1:00 p.m. ET. It marks the debut of new CEO John Ternus and the expected reveal of Apple's first foldable phone.
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Foxbat
Foxbat
IFixIt has published their Teardown and they had some positive things to say about the iPhone Duo. It still showed some dust ingress into the hinge assembly but seemed otherwise well-sealed.
​

But with a considerable number of reports of the main screen dying with similar failures, AppleCare+ should be a no-brainer for this phone.
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S
slow_poke_pete
Foxbat said:
IFixIt has published their Teardown and they had some positive things to say about the iPhone Duo. It still showed some dust ingress into the hinge assembly but seemed otherwise well-sealed.
​

But with a considerable number of reports of the main screen dying with similar failures, AppleCare+ should be a no-brainer for this phone.
Click to expand...

hope you have apple care a screen job is 1000.00 :oops:. can we say over priced garbage!!!
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S
harshness
harshness
Gone are the days when Apple "perfects" what debuted years earlier on an Android phone.
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comfortably_numb
comfortably_numb
harshness said:
Gone are the days when Apple "perfects" what debuted years earlier on an Android phone.
Click to expand...

Or better yet, innovate something "completely revolutionary!"
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S
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TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network

Intelligent Machines 894

Time for another AWESOME video from the TWIT Network!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSBKxtzFi0Y


Direct YouTube Link - Intelligent Machines 894
TWIT's Website
TWIT Live Feed
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T
tparker
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

"Bonus View" Channel List

I was bewildered with all the new DISH TV "Bonus View" channels, so I put together a web page table with all the info I could find. It's at:

https://anythingpeaceful.org/dishtv/DISH_TV_Bonus_View_Channels.html

Here's a partial screenshot of the table, as sorted by Channel Name. (You can click on a column header to sort.)

screenshot.jpg


If you have any corrections or suggestions, please post here.
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T
tparker
Paranormal Files back in business:

1788455787917.webp
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T
tparker
Two new Bonus View channels Added today:

pic.webp


And two Removed:

pic2.webp


My full list is at: DISH TV "Bonus View" Channels

Thanks to Pat for the heads up.
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T
tparker
One Bonus View channel added today. And one correction (on my part):

added and corrected.webp


One Removed:

removed.webp


My full list is at: DISH TV "Bonus View" Channels

BTW, not a Bonus View item, but there was a temporary channel 304 Spooktacular added, I imagine just for the Halloween season.

Thanks again to Pat for the many tips.
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T
tparker
Three new Bonus View channels today:

pic.webp


My full list is at: DISH TV "Bonus View" Channels

As always, thanks to Pat for the tips.
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T
tparker
Four Bonus View channels removed today:

pic1.webp
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Van
Van
Last reply · posted in What's Cooking?

Whats for breakfast?

Who says dinner or lunch has to be the only good meals of the day?

Honey butter grits with scrambled eggs and grilled boneless pork ribs on flakey biscuits washed down with cranberry juice.
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TRG
TRG
2 egg burrito with bacon and a side of hashbrowns. Coffee.

1645.webp
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TRG
TRG
Breakfast Quesadillas. Grilled flour tortilla filled with scrambled eggs, hash browns, chopped green chile, cheddar & Jack cheese and bacon. Coffee.

q.webp
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Bobby
Bobby
Taco omelette. 3 eggs, taco meat from yesterday, diced green chilis, cheddar cheese, chopped red onion, avocado, black olives, chopped tomato, La Victoria Salsa Brava.

This one was really, really good!
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dfergie
dfergie
Thought I was getting a Chorizo and egg burrito (marker had rubbed off)but was a roast beef/potato I made up before hunting this morning.
Btw every morning at camp I cooked my homemade Chorizo and scrambled eggs plus sausage side while my brother brought bacon. (they liked both the beef and pork versions)
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TRG
TRG
dfergie said:
Thought I was getting a Chorizo and egg burrito (marker had rubbed off)but was a roast beef/potato I made up before hunting this morning.
Btw every morning at camp I cooked my homemade Chorizo and scrambled eggs plus sausage side while my brother brought bacon. (they liked both the beef and pork versions)
Click to expand...
I had a chorizo and egg burrito for you. With lots of green chile and cheese of course.
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Peter Parker
Peter Parker
Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum

DISH Hopper 3 Software Version 713 Is Out

No idea what improvements might be involved.
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Almighty1
Almighty1
So after some heavy research, it looks like the issue I mentioned with the DISH 50.0/52.0/54.x remotes where on the 50.0/52.0 remotes, the dedicated TV Power button or on the 54.x remotes where it is using the TV button on the side followed by Power works correctly on a Hopper 3 which runs Linux but not on a Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 which are Android TV (ATV) has to do with the Android TV software itself. In all instances, the remotes had always sent out a dual RF and Infrared signal when the TV Power signal is sent from the remote. The Hopper 3 without the Plus would ignore the incoming RF power packet signal which is identified as a TV-specific toggle event, and does not trigger a system-wide standby state. The Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 as Android TV devices initially worked the same way as well up to sometime in 2025 as there was the legacy pass-through mode in the original software versions used since the Hopper Plus/Joey 4/Wireless Joey 4 launch, the receiver's underlying software essentially ignored the secondary RF payload that the 50.0/52.0/54.x remotes blasted out whenever the TV Power signal was sent. The Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 recognized it was a TV-specific command and discarded the RF packet, letting the standalone IR signal do its job on the tv.

When the software for the Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 were updated in 2025 and newer versions of the software for those Android TV (ATV) devices, it overhauled how the receiver handles remote commands to tighter integrate the Android TV environment which resulted in the software starting to treat any RF power toggle payload as a global command. As the newer software verion(s) no longer filters out the concurrent RF blast from the 50.0/52.0/54.0 remotes, the moment one sends a TV Power signal from the remote, the Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 catches that unintended RF payloadand interpets it as a command to drop the system into standby.

The fix is really simple since the Android TV (ATV) software for the Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 just needs to be programmed to drop or ignore the specific RF power packets associated with the TV Power signal sequence.

The problem could also be at the remotes firmware as the remote's firmware has an engineering defect. When you try to turn off the TV, the remote's internal code mistakenly triggers its RF transmitter alongside its IR transmitter. It should only be firing the IR light blast. Because it forces a simultaneous broadcast, the remote's firmware is the original source of the problem.

The Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey firmware has a filtering defect. Good software design dictating peripheral inputs should include "error handling"—rules that tell the system what to do with messy or unintended commands.
• The legacy Hopper 3 firmware has proper error handling; it sees the remote's rogue RF packet and safely ignores it.
• The Android TV firmware in the Hopper Plu, Joey 4 and Wireless lacks this filtering logic. It blindly accepts the rogue RF packet and misinterprets it as a legitimate signal to force the entire system into standby.

If the remote didn't have a firmware bug, it wouldn't send the phantom RF signal. If the Android TV (ATV) device being the Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 didn't have a firmware bug, it would cleanly ignore the signal just like the Hopper 3 does.

brittanygarden and Rick Durham
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rvvaquero
rvvaquero
That's a lot of information to ingest. However, I don't have the Hopper Plus and my 54 remote is doing crazy things to the Hopper 3. Several times each evening when I press the skip forward button several times to advance through a commercial, it switches the receiver either onto live TV or into suspension. Other buttons will also cause this randomly, I haven't established any patterns I can describe. I use "recall" to go back to my recorded program in progress.

Needless to say, something in the newer Hopper 3 softwares has caused the remote functioning to ......................malfunction. Evidently, it applies to third party remotes as well as DISH's own remotes.
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GRB1959
GRB1959
rvvaquero said:
That's a lot of information to ingest. However, I don't have the Hopper Plus and my 54 remote is doing crazy things to the Hopper 3. Several times each evening when I press the skip forward button several times to advance through a commercial, it switches the receiver either onto live TV or into suspension. Other buttons will also cause this randomly, I haven't established any patterns I can describe. I use "recall" to go back to my recorded program in progress.

Needless to say, something in the newer Hopper 3 softwares has caused the remote functioning to ......................malfunction. Evidently, it applies to third party remotes as well as DISH's own remotes.
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This is exactly the same issue I was having as I had the Hopper 3 and 54 remote without the Hopper Plus and the symptoms were virtually identical to yours.
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ERSanders
ERSanders
We have had a corolary problem in this and the prior s/w. Using several different 40.0 remotes (yeah, we're old), when one pauses a live or recorded show it becomes a crap shoot whether it will step foreward the 30" as requested, jump to the end, or restart the episode. Tried the famous 60" reboot to no avail and have decided to live with it vs. a receiver swap risk.
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T
tpribors
I think there's a change to the "skip forward 30 seconds". With CBS that does not have auto-skip, if you stack up a bunch of 30 second forwards it seems to stop when the kangaroo signaling the end of the commercial break appears.
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