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I've now had some time to directly compare the overall service and features of both Adelphia HD and DVR functionality with Dishnet. As some may have seen already, I've made my decisions. However, I thought it would be helpful to provide some factual comparisons for others.
First, the setup. Both the Dishnet 921 and the Adelphia Scientific Atlanta 8300HD are connected to my Toshiba 46" DLP with integrated tuner via RGB. They are both connected to my HK AVR by Toslink Optical cables. I can instantly (OK, there's about a 2 second delay) switch back and forth between Adelphia and Dishnet on the same exact audio and video devices, and both using standard provided cables (No moster, AR, etc) with the exception that they both use AR Toslink cables. This is probably as direct a comparison as you can get without measuring instrumentation.
Let's start with the remote. The 921 UHF remote is clearly nicer. It has a better range, doesn't require line of sight, and has the 30sec skip function. it's laid out nicer and seems more intuitive. The SA8300 remote is a bit clunky, has no 30 sec fwd skip, the ff isn't as nice. Advantage: Dishnet 921.
Next, the User Interface. The 921 is cleaner, more intuitive, and better resolution. It also provides much nicer program info than does Adelphia and the SA8300HD. Some details, however:
The SA8300HD guide allows you to instantly jump to whatever day you want. The 921 forces you to scroll through days until you get the day you want, and the guide for OTA doesn't go nearly as far in the future as does Dishnet provided channels or any Adelphia channels.
The SA8300HD guide is faster than the 921, but frankly both are speedy enough for me.
The 921 allows you to start recoring a program, then while it's still recording start to watch it from the beginning easily. The SA8300 requires to to rewind back to the beginning manually. Then, if you're still watching it while the recording ends, it will stop. You'll need to start watching it again and FF until you get where you left off. A bit funky.
The SA8300 has NBR, and season pass. The 921 has neither.
The SA8300 has no ability to accept OTA signals, so no DVR or tuner functionality there. This is important, as it means if you have an HD "ready" TV but no OTA tuner, you'll need another tuner. However, this is really mitigated by the fact that Adelphia has all my locals in HD except Fox, so it's not nearly as important. The 921 can accept OTA feeds to it's tuner, and use the guide to treat OTA just like another feed. When it works, it's incredible. When it works. In my experience it has been unbelievably unreliable to the point that it often completely locks up my 921 to the point that I need to unplug and reboot. Also, since I can also connect my OTA antenna directly to my TV tuner, I've found that the 921 OTA tuner is "weaker" than the one in my Toshiba tuner. Signal drops far more frequently when the antenna is connected to the 921 than when connected to the Toshiba integrated tuner.
The 921 has 2 Dish tuners, and 1 OTA tuner. The SA8300HD has 2 cable tuners.
The SA8300 has a BUNCH of other possible connections: 2 firewire, SATA, USB, both Toslink and Coax digital audio, and HDMI. Don't know how many of them will ever be used, but great possibility - especially the SATA for more storage! The 921 is similar, except no SATA, no firewire, no digital coax, and gets DVI instead of HDMI. Clear advantage here to the Adelphia SA8300HD.
The recording capacity of the units "seems" to be very similar and HD, but for some reason it seems that non-HD content capacity is greater on the 921 than on the SA8300. I'm not sure of the accuracy of that statement.
HD PQ is pretty much identical on both units, as is Audio quality. Additionally quality of recorded content also seems to be identical.
SD (and analog for some channels on Adelphia) PQ is strange. On my Toshiba HD screen, the SA8300 seems to be upconverting somehow, and the PQ seems better than from the 921. That even includes comparing what are really analog programs from Adelphia (local Non-HD networks) to true SD equivalent locals from Dish. However, when viewed on my other non-HD CRTs, the 921 (or my 508's or 510) look a bit better. Really strange. But, it leads to a decision that I'll state at the end of this.
Reliability: No question at all, and no comparison. The HD8300HD always works. The 921 seems to work really well - except if I use OTA channels. Then, the thing is like driving a Ford Pinto. Looks OK back when it was on the showroom floor, but breaks down a lot and frequently blows up. One thing I want to emphasize here - there are a bunch of people who seem to be willing to accept less than optimal reliability in the 921 because they claim it's like a PC. Hogwash. Let me be very clear. PC's are highly variable in terms of hardware, components, etc. Then, anyone who wants to can modify them by adding programs, applets, services, etc. Further, you can modify the Operating System - which, by the way has to be designed to somehow accomodate a whole bunch of variability to begin with. Then, they get used in hugely different ways by a huge number of people - in laptops, etc. The 921 is ONLY used on the Dish network, and the software ONLY has to be designed for a very narrow focus of hardware, and for a very narrow set of features, with very specific standards. The OS does NOT get modified by users, and NO additional programs, services, or code can be added by end users. It's NOT mobile and is COMPLETELY controlled by Dish. To compare the Dish 921 to a PC is patently ridiculous. Some people are willing to accept less than reliable performance. That's fine. However the comparison to a PC is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard with respect to technology. There are processors/computers in everything these days, including in your car. So what. Further, Charlie has had a YEAR to fix the overwhelming number of bugs in the product, but they've discontinued it finally rather than fixing it. Dish and Charlie should be completely ashamed of themselves. Actually they should be prosecuted.
Conveniece: Again, no comparison. I live about 10 minutes from my local Adelphia office, so exchanges, fixes, etc, are a 30 minute exercise during normal hours, and appts are surprisingly easy to schedule if I need on site service. Also, no extra cost if something breaks.
Content: Once again, no comparison. Adelphia provides all LOCALS except Fox in HD. I also get HDNFL, INHD, INHD2, ESPNHD, HDMVS, HDNET, MAXHD, STZHD, SHOHD, HBOHD, and PBSHD. With Dish I get TNTHD, DSCHD, NBAHD and NY CBSHD that aren't on Dish, but miss all HD locals, STZ, INHD, INHD2, MAX, STZ. Adelphia seems to add HD content at a pretty rapid pace compared to Dish, both currently and historically.
Cost: For me, Adelphia is the clear winner. Overall, Adelphia still wins for everyone. Here's why.... I had to purchase NOTHING with Adelphia. I lease all units, get more programming, and even get movies on demand (not the ridiculous crappy VOD that does nothing except bilk us out of money) but really get content on demand if I want it. Didn't need to pay $549 for the 921, as well as buying my 508s and 510 outright (which makes me further angry about the VOD fee that Dish tries to get). I have no contract, and am not commited to anything. For equal programming (Adelphia Ultimate Plus versus Dish Americas Everything, both with HD) my monthly cost is slightly lower with Adelphia. Further, since I get my broadband internet from Adelphia, I get a further price break. So, lower monthly cost, cheaper broadband, and I save the cost of all equipment, and no installation fees, plus a variety of free service for the first couple months. And - if I want "standard" cable (non-digitals) on any more TVs in my house, I get it instantly and at no cost whatsoever
. No "6 unit limit". My home is kind of large so that actually is a factor for me.
Bottom line: To me, Dish isn't even in the game. They used to be, but are now not even second rate. Adelphia is the winner in every category I care about. Do I wish the interface on the SA8300HD was as nice as the 921? Yes. Will that help me get network HD content? No. Dumping Dish gave me more content, lower cost, higher reliability, more convenience, more flexibility, faster customer support, better response time, and a lower investment. Plus, I mentioned a decision earlier in this post that I'd discuss later. Well, what I meant is that I have 3 SA8300's. ALL of them are capable of HD. So, the cost for me to adopt MORE HD is only the cost of a set! As a result, I'll be adding another HD TV of a more "normal" size in our bedroom the next time I stumble on a great deal. With Dish, I'd need yet ANOTHER 921 at $549, but then I'd need to figure out exactly how I'd then get OTA to yet another room without losing OTA signal. Am I in love with Adelphia? Heck no - they've been theives in the past, and probably remain so. But, when forced to pick from a restricted group of choices, I'll take the "least bad" choice. I've tried to be very unbiased here. I probably have a couple more days before the shipping labels arrive to RMA my 921 back to Dish. If you've got questions, let me know.
First, the setup. Both the Dishnet 921 and the Adelphia Scientific Atlanta 8300HD are connected to my Toshiba 46" DLP with integrated tuner via RGB. They are both connected to my HK AVR by Toslink Optical cables. I can instantly (OK, there's about a 2 second delay) switch back and forth between Adelphia and Dishnet on the same exact audio and video devices, and both using standard provided cables (No moster, AR, etc) with the exception that they both use AR Toslink cables. This is probably as direct a comparison as you can get without measuring instrumentation.
Let's start with the remote. The 921 UHF remote is clearly nicer. It has a better range, doesn't require line of sight, and has the 30sec skip function. it's laid out nicer and seems more intuitive. The SA8300 remote is a bit clunky, has no 30 sec fwd skip, the ff isn't as nice. Advantage: Dishnet 921.
Next, the User Interface. The 921 is cleaner, more intuitive, and better resolution. It also provides much nicer program info than does Adelphia and the SA8300HD. Some details, however:
The SA8300HD guide allows you to instantly jump to whatever day you want. The 921 forces you to scroll through days until you get the day you want, and the guide for OTA doesn't go nearly as far in the future as does Dishnet provided channels or any Adelphia channels.
The SA8300HD guide is faster than the 921, but frankly both are speedy enough for me.
The 921 allows you to start recoring a program, then while it's still recording start to watch it from the beginning easily. The SA8300 requires to to rewind back to the beginning manually. Then, if you're still watching it while the recording ends, it will stop. You'll need to start watching it again and FF until you get where you left off. A bit funky.
The SA8300 has NBR, and season pass. The 921 has neither.
The SA8300 has no ability to accept OTA signals, so no DVR or tuner functionality there. This is important, as it means if you have an HD "ready" TV but no OTA tuner, you'll need another tuner. However, this is really mitigated by the fact that Adelphia has all my locals in HD except Fox, so it's not nearly as important. The 921 can accept OTA feeds to it's tuner, and use the guide to treat OTA just like another feed. When it works, it's incredible. When it works. In my experience it has been unbelievably unreliable to the point that it often completely locks up my 921 to the point that I need to unplug and reboot. Also, since I can also connect my OTA antenna directly to my TV tuner, I've found that the 921 OTA tuner is "weaker" than the one in my Toshiba tuner. Signal drops far more frequently when the antenna is connected to the 921 than when connected to the Toshiba integrated tuner.
The 921 has 2 Dish tuners, and 1 OTA tuner. The SA8300HD has 2 cable tuners.
The SA8300 has a BUNCH of other possible connections: 2 firewire, SATA, USB, both Toslink and Coax digital audio, and HDMI. Don't know how many of them will ever be used, but great possibility - especially the SATA for more storage! The 921 is similar, except no SATA, no firewire, no digital coax, and gets DVI instead of HDMI. Clear advantage here to the Adelphia SA8300HD.
The recording capacity of the units "seems" to be very similar and HD, but for some reason it seems that non-HD content capacity is greater on the 921 than on the SA8300. I'm not sure of the accuracy of that statement.
HD PQ is pretty much identical on both units, as is Audio quality. Additionally quality of recorded content also seems to be identical.
SD (and analog for some channels on Adelphia) PQ is strange. On my Toshiba HD screen, the SA8300 seems to be upconverting somehow, and the PQ seems better than from the 921. That even includes comparing what are really analog programs from Adelphia (local Non-HD networks) to true SD equivalent locals from Dish. However, when viewed on my other non-HD CRTs, the 921 (or my 508's or 510) look a bit better. Really strange. But, it leads to a decision that I'll state at the end of this.
Reliability: No question at all, and no comparison. The HD8300HD always works. The 921 seems to work really well - except if I use OTA channels. Then, the thing is like driving a Ford Pinto. Looks OK back when it was on the showroom floor, but breaks down a lot and frequently blows up. One thing I want to emphasize here - there are a bunch of people who seem to be willing to accept less than optimal reliability in the 921 because they claim it's like a PC. Hogwash. Let me be very clear. PC's are highly variable in terms of hardware, components, etc. Then, anyone who wants to can modify them by adding programs, applets, services, etc. Further, you can modify the Operating System - which, by the way has to be designed to somehow accomodate a whole bunch of variability to begin with. Then, they get used in hugely different ways by a huge number of people - in laptops, etc. The 921 is ONLY used on the Dish network, and the software ONLY has to be designed for a very narrow focus of hardware, and for a very narrow set of features, with very specific standards. The OS does NOT get modified by users, and NO additional programs, services, or code can be added by end users. It's NOT mobile and is COMPLETELY controlled by Dish. To compare the Dish 921 to a PC is patently ridiculous. Some people are willing to accept less than reliable performance. That's fine. However the comparison to a PC is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard with respect to technology. There are processors/computers in everything these days, including in your car. So what. Further, Charlie has had a YEAR to fix the overwhelming number of bugs in the product, but they've discontinued it finally rather than fixing it. Dish and Charlie should be completely ashamed of themselves. Actually they should be prosecuted.
Conveniece: Again, no comparison. I live about 10 minutes from my local Adelphia office, so exchanges, fixes, etc, are a 30 minute exercise during normal hours, and appts are surprisingly easy to schedule if I need on site service. Also, no extra cost if something breaks.
Content: Once again, no comparison. Adelphia provides all LOCALS except Fox in HD. I also get HDNFL, INHD, INHD2, ESPNHD, HDMVS, HDNET, MAXHD, STZHD, SHOHD, HBOHD, and PBSHD. With Dish I get TNTHD, DSCHD, NBAHD and NY CBSHD that aren't on Dish, but miss all HD locals, STZ, INHD, INHD2, MAX, STZ. Adelphia seems to add HD content at a pretty rapid pace compared to Dish, both currently and historically.
Cost: For me, Adelphia is the clear winner. Overall, Adelphia still wins for everyone. Here's why.... I had to purchase NOTHING with Adelphia. I lease all units, get more programming, and even get movies on demand (not the ridiculous crappy VOD that does nothing except bilk us out of money) but really get content on demand if I want it. Didn't need to pay $549 for the 921, as well as buying my 508s and 510 outright (which makes me further angry about the VOD fee that Dish tries to get). I have no contract, and am not commited to anything. For equal programming (Adelphia Ultimate Plus versus Dish Americas Everything, both with HD) my monthly cost is slightly lower with Adelphia. Further, since I get my broadband internet from Adelphia, I get a further price break. So, lower monthly cost, cheaper broadband, and I save the cost of all equipment, and no installation fees, plus a variety of free service for the first couple months. And - if I want "standard" cable (non-digitals) on any more TVs in my house, I get it instantly and at no cost whatsoever
. No "6 unit limit". My home is kind of large so that actually is a factor for me.Bottom line: To me, Dish isn't even in the game. They used to be, but are now not even second rate. Adelphia is the winner in every category I care about. Do I wish the interface on the SA8300HD was as nice as the 921? Yes. Will that help me get network HD content? No. Dumping Dish gave me more content, lower cost, higher reliability, more convenience, more flexibility, faster customer support, better response time, and a lower investment. Plus, I mentioned a decision earlier in this post that I'd discuss later. Well, what I meant is that I have 3 SA8300's. ALL of them are capable of HD. So, the cost for me to adopt MORE HD is only the cost of a set! As a result, I'll be adding another HD TV of a more "normal" size in our bedroom the next time I stumble on a great deal. With Dish, I'd need yet ANOTHER 921 at $549, but then I'd need to figure out exactly how I'd then get OTA to yet another room without losing OTA signal. Am I in love with Adelphia? Heck no - they've been theives in the past, and probably remain so. But, when forced to pick from a restricted group of choices, I'll take the "least bad" choice. I've tried to be very unbiased here. I probably have a couple more days before the shipping labels arrive to RMA my 921 back to Dish. If you've got questions, let me know.
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2983 views
After having continuing trouble with my eight+ year old Dell Inspiron laptop I am looking to hopefully catch a good deal on new one. My options to buy is Costco and Sam's Club. It seems like a lot of new laptops are 2 in 1 which I do not need. I use the laptop to mainly surf the web and keep up with my finances, money and bills. I would like to have at least a 15" screen and having a touchscreen is a plus. The keyboard would need to lighted also. I don't game any. It would have to be Windows instead of and not Mac. The brands I see the most are Asus, Dell and HP. My two last laptops has been Dell's. Of these brands are there any standouts over the other brands. My budget (hopefully) is $600+-. Also while researching I noticed that do not have ethernet ports.
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0 views
Lifetime Supporter
Looks like dish is Bankrupt. Filling tomorrow Tuesday June 30th
430 Replies
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14432 views
News about the tower's dispute-
Towercos now own Dish's 5G radios – and SpaceX might be a buyer
Tower companies now own Dish's deserted 5G gear, says American Tower CEO Steven Vondran. This could feed into SpaceX's mobile ambitions, analysts say.
www.lightreading.com
News about the tower's dispute-
Towercos now own Dish's 5G radios – and SpaceX might be a buyer
Tower companies now own Dish's deserted 5G gear, says American Tower CEO Steven Vondran. This could feed into SpaceX's mobile ambitions, analysts say.www.lightreading.com
So does this mean the churches and businesses that Dish owes back payments to are going to get paid now?
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
This should hit a lot of folks with a dose of reality. I can only imagine how much more common this will get as AI progresses.
I read several stories on this and most are clear as mud. They say a lot of the stolen bitcoin has been "locked out" and that everyone will be made financially whole. I guess time will tell if either of these statements are actually true.
www.cnbc.com
I read several stories on this and most are clear as mud. They say a lot of the stolen bitcoin has been "locked out" and that everyone will be made financially whole. I guess time will tell if either of these statements are actually true.
Hackers steal $6.3 billion from Binance in biggest-ever cryptocurrency theft
The company later added it began recovering assets impacted by the breach after pledging to cover losses using its Secure Asset Fund for Users.
www.cnbc.com
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174 views
Staff member
HERE TO HELP YOU!
Cutting Edge
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
So let the game continue!
The last song was added by Bobby who posted...
One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters
CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!
Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game
Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.
Example:
Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow
Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio
Another example:
Ride the Lightning -- Metallica
Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne
Get it?
An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68688 Replies
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2681806 views
For some reason, the satelliteguys.us site is loading a lot slower than usual on both Chrome on my Asus laptop and Safari on my iPhone.
I'm also seeing longer appearances of the blue bar at the top and the "3 blue bars" loading symbol.
Is anyone else also having the same problem? Thanks in advance.
I'm also seeing longer appearances of the blue bar at the top and the "3 blue bars" loading symbol.
Is anyone else also having the same problem? Thanks in advance.
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19995 views
Supporting Founder
Really excited for this season with Kentucky having a new coach and some really exciting recruits. Probably won't last long, but here's hoping this season is great.
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2944 views
..I hate playing in Ames.
I hate playing in LA ...
Buckeyes had 2 weeks off and came out and looked absolutely terrible ... broke in a new Freshman Qb, but that wasn't the worst part ... undiscipline play, at last count they had 10 penalties.
Freshman in the end of the game trying to play catch up, had a lot of Over throws ... Bucks lose ...
#1 Miami struggled but pulled away in the end beating North Carolina by 3 ...
Tuesday the CFP brings out thier Playoff Top 12 again ... Buckeyes should drop from #2 to about #22 (they won't) had they had thier Starting QB, it would have been a different game ...
They could lose the rest of thier games at this point.
Pub Member / Supporter
Pissed off at the crappy healthcare costs
My health Insurance renewal for 2027 just came in. Going from $827 a month to $1,187 a month. Deductible going up a $1k to $9,350. Max out of pocket also going up $1k to $11,000. Doctor co-pay of $40. Urgent Care co-pay $50. ER 50% coinsurance after deductible. That's all in network. Out of network is double, should it be needed.
Have to think about this. I'm really tempted to just go without now. I only go to the doctor once or twice a year. I pay out of pocket for Tirzepitide and can do without the Rosuvastatin (crestor) now. Really tired of spending over $10k a year and getting nothing out of it.
After years with Blue Cross I switched last year to Ambetter as my Blue Cross premium was going from $1200 to $1800 for a Silver plan and the Bronze plan was still going to be $1300 at BCBS. Ambetter was $827 for the same coverage with a Bronze plan. Didn't think it would jump this much so soon.
I'm guessing a Silver plan is probably over $2,000 a month for 2027.
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320 views
Yes.....they do. Which is why I am very careful when at a customer's house these days....you NEVER know what is going to set someone off. Polite dialog is a thing of the past.....which is why I like my dog so much
Staff member
HERE TO HELP YOU!
Cutting Edge
Some of the channels start next week.
investor.siriusxm.com
SiriusXM Delivers the Soundtrack to the Holidays with Its Festive Lineup of 25 Handcrafted Seasonal Music Channels
Lineup features channels produced and presented by celebrated personalities and iconic brands, including Jimmy Fallon, Hallmark,…...
investor.siriusxm.com
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224 views
Pub Member / Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
I figured some of the guys would be looking here for an answer. You'll need to use this link
I'll mention what happened over there. I don't want to cause Scott any issues or put him in a bad spot.
I'll mention what happened over there. I don't want to cause Scott any issues or put him in a bad spot.
7 Replies
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311 views
Now I have to go check out what happened now. Lol!I figured some of the guys would be looking here for an answer. You'll need to use this link
I'll mention what happened over there. I don't want to cause Scott any issues or put him in a bad spot.
Went and looked, not too bad...
Just let people know the address is satelliteretailer.com as DishRetailer.COM is not working.
Just let people know the address is satelliteretailer.com as DishRetailer.COM is not working.
I sent you a PM Scott. Doesn't really make any sense to me BUT....I've never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer....though I just might be the most persistent.
Its an automated bot. Explained it to you in the PM.I sent you a PM Scott. Doesn't really make any sense to me BUT....I've never claimed to be the sharpest knife in the drawer....though I just might be the most persistent.
Pub Member / Supporter
America’s Fastest-Growing EV State Isn’t California—Not by a Long Shot
New data shows electric vehicle adoption is increasingly driven by state policies, electricity prices and charging access—not federal incentives
www.autoweek.com
The number-one US state for EV growth, according to the June 22 Yardi report?
Oklahoma.
It has no ZEV mandates and "minimal" incentives, Yardi says, but also has cheap electricity, high multi-car household rates (so, for example, a non-Lightning Ford F-150 pulls their trailers), and a consumer base willing to switch.
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1173 views
tomwellborn3rd (@wellborn.net)
This author has chosen to make their posts visible only to people who are signed in.
bsky.app
Never realized that Tesla is losing to BYD at manufacturing too, which IMO is Tesla's biggest accomplishment and area of innovation. Nice writeup about the state of play and how we got here though. I have no faith that we're moving any productive direction though sadly, most changes and efforts feel reactionary rather than rooted in making use of the time being bought by tariffs, with few exceptions.
So: how are the cars so cheap, and what is being cut to get there? The best public accounting comes from the Rhodium Group, which compared BYD, Geely, and Leapmotor against Tesla's Chinese operation, a fair comparison because it removes labor costs and shipping from the equation entirely. Their estimate is that BYD builds a car for about $4,700 less than Tesla builds a Model 3 in Shanghai, roughly 15 percent of the Model 3's price. The breakdown is the interesting part. Direct government grants account for about $292 per vehicle, which is 5 percent of the gap. The biggest single factor is vertical integration: BYD makes about 80 percent of its top-tier components in-house, against 37 percent for Tesla, and that eliminates roughly $2,369 per vehicle in supplier markups. Lower overhead, meaning cheaper engineering talent and administrative cost spread across enormous volume, accounts for another $1,719. And BYD pays its suppliers on 155-day terms, against Tesla's 60, which is worth about $214 per car in float. When people say the Chinese advantage is subsidies, the per-vehicle number says otherwise. When people say it is slave wages, the Tesla Shanghai comparison says otherwise too. The advantage is mostly that BYD decided, twenty years ago, to make its own batteries, its own motors, its own power electronics, and its own semiconductors, and Western automakers decided the opposite.
GM Is Coming for Tesla, Rivian, and China, on Your Phone and in the Car
GM’s latest tech preview details autonomous highway driving plans, AI-powered OnStar features, and new LMR batteries for future EVs.
GM said its next-generation vehicle architecture will provide 40 times more computing power and 30 percent less wiring than before and will expand from the 2028 Cadillac Escalade IQ to its high-volume SUVs, trucks, crossovers, and fourth-generation EVs, which will be powered by lithium manganese-rich (LMR) prismatic batteries
Despite the politicization and perceived consumer pivot away from EVs in America, GM needs to remain globally competitive, so it's doubling down on its fourth generation EVs, with energy-dense, cheaper-to-manufacture LMR batteries, more efficient motors, and state-of-the-art centralized computing architecture. With a stated goal of cutting the traditional four- to five-year concept-to-production time in half, GM is clearly challenging the concept of "China speed," which in the Chinese automotive industry can be as quick as 18 months from design to start of production. In the AI space, GM is smartly collapsing all of its marque-specific apps under the familiar OnStar brand, while providing more features—both on the phone and in the car—than it ever has before.
T
That's how Ford did it- vertical integration. He even set up a rubber plantation in S. Americatomwellborn3rd (@wellborn.net)
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Never realized that Tesla is losing to BYD at manufacturing too, which IMO is Tesla's biggest accomplishment and area of innovation. Nice writeup about the state of play and how we got here though. I have no faith that we're moving any productive direction though sadly, most changes and efforts feel reactionary rather than rooted in making use of the time being bought by tariffs, with few exceptions.
So: how are the cars so cheap, and what is being cut to get there? The best public accounting comes from the Rhodium Group, which compared BYD, Geely, and Leapmotor against Tesla's Chinese operation, a fair comparison because it removes labor costs and shipping from the equation entirely. Their estimate is that BYD builds a car for about $4,700 less than Tesla builds a Model 3 in Shanghai, roughly 15 percent of the Model 3's price. The breakdown is the interesting part. Direct government grants account for about $292 per vehicle, which is 5 percent of the gap. The biggest single factor is vertical integration: BYD makes about 80 percent of its top-tier components in-house, against 37 percent for Tesla, and that eliminates roughly $2,369 per vehicle in supplier markups. Lower overhead, meaning cheaper engineering talent and administrative cost spread across enormous volume, accounts for another $1,719. And BYD pays its suppliers on 155-day terms, against Tesla's 60, which is worth about $214 per car in float. When people say the Chinese advantage is subsidies, the per-vehicle number says otherwise. When people say it is slave wages, the Tesla Shanghai comparison says otherwise too. The advantage is mostly that BYD decided, twenty years ago, to make its own batteries, its own motors, its own power electronics, and its own semiconductors, and Western automakers decided the opposite.