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jayn_j
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Last reply · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info
I did some playing during the superbowl in that I compared OTA vs TWC vs FoxNow feed.

I used the built in tuner on my 4k Samsung 65" 9000 for OTA
The TIVO Roamio for the TWC/Spectrum feed off the primary Fox channel
The built in app for the fox now feed.

Unfortunately, Fox did not support a 4k feed, although they used 4k cameras.
The OTA and streaming were close with the edge going to OTA. My Fox affiliate only runs 1 subchannel (antenna TV). The streaming was close, but had occasional dropouts and periods where quality dropped for a few seconds.

The cable feed however was awful. It was very soft, nearly 480p quality. Colors were muted and overall it just looked dull.

I am now in the process of dropping the cable again. I want the higher speed modem Spectrum is now offering, but I am watching less conventional TV and it is mostly broadcast. Pretty sure I can live without cable again, especially since Spectrum killed my discount rate.

I encourage folks to do some periodic comparisons. MY cable feed was significantly better a year ago.
20 Replies · 2803 views
comfortably_numb
Is there any reason why Fox is STILL only 720 and not 1080i? All the other nets are 1080 now.
S
Is there any reason why Fox is STILL only 720 and not 1080i? All the other nets are 1080 now.
It's 720 progressive instead of 1080 interlaced.

For 720p, the screen is updated at a rate of 60 frames per second. For 1080i, it's 60 fields per second, but you need 2 fields to render a full frame. Picture your TV as rows of pixels, 1 field will have odd lines, the next field will have even lines.

1280 x 720 = 921,600 pixels to update every 1/60th of a second
1920 x 1080 / 2 = 1,036,800 pixels to update every 1/60th of a second. (/2 because of interlacing)

So for about the same bandwidth budget, you can deliver smooth full-frame update motion for things like sports without ending up with interlacing artifacts like this:
Interlaced_video_frame_(car_wheel).jpg
harshness
So for about the same bandwidth budget, you can deliver smooth full-frame update motion for things like sports without ending up with interlacing artifacts like this:
Fortunately, we humans were endowed with a brain that blends interlaced screens together so that we can't perceive this phenomenon without the aid of a still frame to show us what was happening.

Since CBS at 1080i is typically rated as better quality than ABC and Fox, the progressive scan argument is pretty much lost. That may change going forward as HD channels in larger TV markets are forced to share a channel and bandwidth becomes a huge issue.
navychop
You'll note that interlacing has been dropped for UHD/"4K".

Interlacing came into existence because when TV rolled out, the technology of the time could do no better. It was the phosphors on the CRT tube that had persistence and glowed just long enough to maintain an image our eyes would construct a reasonable image.

Resolution and frame rates are just part of the package that determines PQ.

Bandwidth requirements for 720p and 1080i aren't that far apart.
harshness
You'll note that interlacing has been dropped for UHD/"4K".
This probably has more to do with how computationally expensive it is to synthesize an interlaced screen from progressive digital sources. Modern compression schemes also work a whole lot better with progressive scanning.
It was the phosphors on the CRT tube that had persistence and glowed just long enough to maintain an image our eyes would construct a reasonable image.
Digital deinterlacing carries that burden today.
Bandwidth requirements for 720p and 1080i aren't that far apart.
They're far enough apart that you won't find many 1080i feeds sharing a TV channel. My local PBS station is a seemingly rare exception.

I suspect that much of the hardware development has been aimed at 1080 resolution as it provides an even multiple to higher resolutions as opposed to 720 which works in factors of three. Lastly, I don't expect that anyone is using cameras that are anywhere close to 720 native.
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comfortably_numb
This probably has more to do with how computationally expensive it is to synthesize an interlaced screen from progressive digital sources. Modern compression schemes also work a whole lot better with progressive scanning.Digital deinterlacing carries that burden today.They're far enough apart that you won't find many 1080i feeds sharing a TV channel. My local PBS station is a seemingly rare exception.

I suspect that much of the hardware development has been aimed at 1080 resolution as it provides an even multiple to higher resolutions as opposed to 720 which works in factors of three. Lastly, I don't expect that anyone is using cameras that are anywhere close to 720 native.

Harshness, how much total bandwidth is required for 1080i? I, too, have noticed that OTA stations in 1080i have fewer sub-channels, and I don't have any with two 1080i feeds on one channel. KCPT used to have one 1080i, a 720p, and a 480i, but with the addition of PBS kids, they have dropped the main PBS feed down to 720.
harshness
Bandwidth is capped in broadcast television such that it is less about what is required and more about something that they carefully pack things into. The modulators that produce the ATSC multiplex use lossy MPEG2 compression on the source video streams such that the result plus the audio streams fit in the <6MHz bandwidth. If they fail, you get artifacts. Confetti drops will probably always result in artifacting.

Raw data-wise, 1080i represents 1,036,800 (1920x540) pixels/second where 720p is 921600 (1280x720) pixels/second (12.5% differential).

According to the Rabbitears database, KOPB has two 1080i feeds (OPB and OPB+) along with PBS Kids at 480i and a 480i slide show with three audio configurations (OPB Radio, OPB Music on SAP1 and KMHD Jazz on SAP2). They've surely got some very able modulators but I have to say that the OPB quality seems diminished since the addition.
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comfortably_numb
Bandwidth is capped in broadcast television such that it is less about what is required and more about something that they carefully pack things into. The modulators that produce the ATSC multiplex use lossy MPEG2 compression on the source video streams such that the result plus the audio streams fit in the <6MHz bandwidth. If they fail, you get artifacts. Confetti drops will probably always result in artifacting.

Raw data-wise, 1080i represents 1,036,800 (1920x540) pixels/second where 720p is 921600 (1280x720) pixels/second (12.5% differential).

According to the Rabbitears database, KOPB has two 1080i feeds (OPB and OPB+) along with PBS Kids at 480i and a 480i slide show with three audio configurations (OPB Radio, OPB Music on SAP1 and KMHD Jazz on SAP2). They've surely got some very able modulators but I have to say that the OPB quality seems diminished since the addition.

Our PBS quality has also diminished since the addition of PBS Kids. I wish they would have reduced KCPT 2 to 480i and kept the 1080i on the main channel. The drop in quality is very noticeable.
S
Fortunately, we humans were endowed with a brain that blends interlaced screens together so that we can't perceive this phenomenon without the aid of a still frame to show us what was happening.

Since CBS at 1080i is typically rated as better quality than ABC and Fox, the progressive scan argument is pretty much lost.
It's not that cut and dry -- it's highly dependent on the content type, intermediate processing, and the person watching. While you're absolutely correct humans don't directly see interlacing, it's not 100% seamless -- if you show fast motion content like panning aerial shots from a nature show or a fast sport with left-right panning like basketball, soccer, or hockey most people will identify the interlaced video feed as providing a "soft" picture because interlacing artifacts are viewed as losing edge detail.

For most of primetime TV, however, where you have shows set against relatively static backdrops, yeah - the extra resolution is going to produce a better looking picture.

Then you still have the wildcard of TVs that have advanced motion processing (ie, 120Hz / 240Hz TVs) that will calculate intermediate frames to smooth out the screen updates further. As detection algorithms have gotten better over the years, newer TVs can detect things like panning shots and completely neutralize interlacing artifacts for everything but the side of the screen where new content is showing up on a pan.

All that said, in general, progressive full-frame video at 1280x720 resolution tends to look better on content with more on-screen pixel changes than 1920x1080 interlaced video to a wider majority of people on a wider majority of devices. As you go down the scale from 100% on-screen pixel updates per second to 0% on-screen pixel updates per second there is a crossover point where 1080i runs away with being the better choice. Every network tries to decide which side of that crossover point most of their content fits within, and chooses a broadcast resolution accordingly.
T
Last reply · posted in C-BAND Satellite Discussion
Howdy folks long time no write.

Issue(s): Horizontal transponders (esp. Weigel mux) breakup/mosaic/sputtering audio, JTV less so (but received perfectly up until a month or so ago.
Vertical is fine (Daystar). Up until recently couldn't even get any signal on Weigel Mux but JTV was perfect.

What I did to improve things: A slight westward move improved reception but only slightly (approx 72 on the micro HD, sorry no dB to post). I removed the 3-way C-Band splitter and used a 2-way to get a 1-2 db signal gain ( the power port goes to the Startrak - the micro HD doesn't have enough juice ! (1st clue) even after swapping the switching power supply it came with with a heftier linear 12 V supply (less RFI too !).
I have had issues with the uHD before signal breaking up that a reboot would clear up (clue #2 = dying tuner?) - FYI, I reinforced the IF input and removed all flux from the pcb completely with a Flux Removal Pen (MG Chemicals Cat No. 4140-P) which definitely makes a huge difference.

I went outside and pushed and pulled reflector slightly and no improvement. Pole (actually tower in yard - the neighbours love me..NOT) is plumb, checked with carpenters level. Dish was last peaked in 2017 or so, after overhauling 24" Von Weise, new Acme, fresh grease, etc. Focal length, f/d ratio etc meticulously adjusted. One panel has a tear so planning to repair that this weekend when my cousin comes over ( to help me out (old guy here) forecast calls for sunshine.

What has changed: My utility company has installed new high tension line poles (one smack dab in the middle of 101°W target! But they put it in last year and reception (of JTV (HOR) at least) was fine, BUT when they came out to transfer the wires over this year from the old (sawed in half) pole that's about when the troubles started (coincidence?), but again Daystar (VER) was fine. I always had this pole in the light of sight of 101° before with no issues. (fyi my zenith sat 74° is unobstucted, but can't test)

In the meantime Weigel mux is trying to break in MOSTLY in LATE at night (less cell usage?) (audio not video except for a frame here or there) so don't know what has changed with this mux which suddenly "woke up". I have never had to fuss with dish moves on this satellite ( the slightest move +/- motor clicks loses lock, wheres normally on C-band I can go significantly wider east or west and still have a strong signal ( have these gone "spot beam" or narrower somehow and what is the slight difference in Az listed on Lyngsat to 100.9° affect things ( isn't that the declination i.e. requiring a tweak of declination?).

Long story short (too late, ha), if I had another DVB-S2 box to try and / or a newer more stable PLL lnb ( I have been meaning to upgrade many a time but never got arround to it) I could determine if it's my antiquated receiving equipment, or my dish/feed alignment ( doubtful as it tracks everything from 55 °W to 133 ° W nicely.) or the dreaded 5G! (BUT only on HOR and not VER?).
I read another post where the OP (with his smaller 7.5 footer) played around with the illumination to peak desired transponder and reduce qrm on interfering/ stronger xpndrs (even on 103° W). So will play with that too - and cut away the RG-6 a and pull up a fresh section with new PPC and coax Seal. Open the throat cap see if any cobwebs are there and check servo operation (also changed in last maintence 10 years ago).

Finally, this will probably be the last chance I get to play with the BUD from the looks of it (providers leaving, auctioning off rest of spectrum imminent above 4.0 Ghz, and to keep the peace with neighbours so it would be nice to have that mux back for the long, cold and dark winters to comfort this old man before I call it quits and buy a VHF/UHF/FM Yagi and get MeTV, H&I from my Vermont local stations (checked at a friends today and they come in nicely - except ABC) .
Only one guy in town (Montreal) I may be able to get a receiver or PLL lnb from to try (RPS Sat) so hopefully with elimnate that as a possible culprit. Be nice to pick up a cheap or used PLL lnb to try w/o 5G BPF (money is tight )

Like others I couldn't care less about "tv" (well maybe just a liitle or a lot) it's the challenge that excites me , I can get MeTV other ways OTA (no pirate crap).

So what do you guys (and gals) think ?. p.s. I don't have a spectrum analyzer and there are def/ cell towers nearby (half a Km or so away).
Oh and time permitting will hammer out dings too and wire damaged mesh on one section for an extra dB or two. Hesitate to touch Declination, Elevation and pole mount but will play around with those a little too... Why is this mux for finicky suddenly ?(8psk, 5/6 fec, beamwidthetc.. man wish they went back to VER I think everthing would be fine! For the engineers out here does 5G QRM affect one poliarization (HOR) more than another (VER)? I understand the strong interference swamps out the input mixer/local oscilator in the hapless old C-band lnb (I think it at time affect KU too esp. LPB on 101°W KU - incidentally thos were weak or "gone' but are back almost at the time MeTV improved..hmm Terrestrial interference?

Any thoughts or suggestions ( cheap or free solutions please) greatly appreciated. Cheers.

p.p.s. Micro HD can't display Decades and Toons but records them fine so I can watch on another box/media player (Ali chip set issue). Another reason to upgrade.

Anybody interested in a nice C/KU system free ? (for next Spring/Summer 2027)

[Sami 10' mesh, Corotor II+, Eagle Aspen (very old) C-band lnb, Norsat Ku lnb, Channel Master C/Ku (H/V) switch, Startrak 400 Analog receiver w/ motor control, Geosat uHD DVD-S2, CW600S for Mpeg-2]
17 Replies · 625 views
arlo
To me it looks like all of the intelligent things to diagnose the problem 'on the cheap' are being done.
I have my own thoughts of lnbf's using an external filter between the feed and coax. It would be cool to see what Brian could add.
Do his units have the filter before the actual LNA chip in the circuit? In other words, signal is focused at the lnbf throat. The probes for h & v polarity send the signal to.......filtering......then to the lna IC......
Or probes, lna, then filtering. Makes sense to trap the bad stuff before amplification to me.

On the cheap sometimes leaves questions. Enosat and El Bandido both use dvb-s pci cards and TBS USB receivers.
With those, and software. Signal analysis becomes sort of easy. Or tapping into your coax with a dc pass splitter, decoupling capacitor, and using a spectrum analyzer. Tuning across the LO band. Finding signal spikes. Digging deep.

Still making my decision on a (most probably) TBS PCIe tuner card. But I have tapped into my coax with my ancient but quite impressive HP spectrum analyzer and tinysa.
I don't have 5G interference so far that I know of. But have my suspects because I'm only able to snag signal from 131W in the winter when the leaves drop. But out of curiosity do scan it in the fall. And seem to be getting a signal that 'shouldn't' be there and a scan shows no channels. Far as I got.

An idea pops up to rig up an LNBF on a stick. Along with the tinysa and power supply and do some rogue signal searches. War Driving, of sorts. But. I wouldn't think that a chinabox, firmware based receiver would be of much help.
From what I see scanning across the frequency band. 5G cell transmission is always on and is very wide spectrum.
Whether anyone is actually using talking, texting, watching stupid human tricks on YouTube Makes no difference. The RF is there. So why would a C Band setup come and go? And what if you dumped the corotor and went modern voltage controlled polarity?

Another thought. Since you've learned the optimal position to place the scalar to illuminate out to the dish rim. And peaked the feed. There's most of a roll of aluminum flashing out in my garage that would most definitely wrap around my dish perimeter. That and a bag of large binder clips from the office supply. wally world. Ideas?
B
To me it looks like all of the intelligent things to diagnose the problem 'on the cheap' are being done.
I have my own thoughts of lnbf's using an external filter between the feed and coax. It would be cool to see what Brian could add.
Do his units have the filter before the actual LNA chip in the circuit? In other words, signal is focused at the lnbf throat. The probes for h & v polarity send the signal to.......filtering......then to the lna IC......
Or probes, lna, then filtering. Makes sense to trap the bad stuff before amplification to me.

On the cheap sometimes leaves questions. Enosat and El Bandido both use dvb-s pci cards and TBS USB receivers.
With those, and software. Signal analysis becomes sort of easy. Or tapping into your coax with a dc pass splitter, decoupling capacitor, and using a spectrum analyzer. Tuning across the LO band. Finding signal spikes. Digging deep.

Still making my decision on a (most probably) TBS PCIe tuner card. But I have tapped into my coax with my ancient but quite impressive HP spectrum analyzer and tinysa.
I don't have 5G interference so far that I know of. But have my suspects because I'm only able to snag signal from 131W in the winter when the leaves drop. But out of curiosity do scan it in the fall. And seem to be getting a signal that 'shouldn't' be there and a scan shows no channels. Far as I got.

An idea pops up to rig up an LNBF on a stick. Along with the tinysa and power supply and do some rogue signal searches. War Driving, of sorts. But. I wouldn't think that a chinabox, firmware based receiver would be of much help.
From what I see scanning across the frequency band. 5G cell transmission is always on and is very wide spectrum.
Whether anyone is actually using talking, texting, watching stupid human tricks on YouTube Makes no difference. The RF is there. So why would a C Band setup come and go? And what if you dumped the corotor and went modern voltage controlled polarity?

Another thought. Since you've learned the optimal position to place the scalar to illuminate out to the dish rim. And peaked the feed. There's most of a roll of aluminum flashing out in my garage that would most definitely wrap around my dish perimeter. That and a bag of large binder clips from the office supply. wally world. Ideas?
I did some more investigating and found I got the MeTV mux in the early hours, until about 6am then the pixelating starts. Gets worse until around 8am its totally gone. I suspect my local cell tower is ramping up traffic as the morning goes on. My Titanium feed does a super job and most everything is clear that wasn't before but this mux is aggravating! I seem to just be over the signal threshold to work until the 5G total overwhelms my system. I'm using an old 9 foot spun aluminum dish and was wondering if I went to a 12 ft dish this would solve the problem? I know bigger is better in most satellite dish related signal problems. If this is true I will be searching for a bigger dish. I like your idea of flashing put around the dish perimeter. I have some I need to dig out and try before I start ripping out my dish. Anybody have any ideas if the bigger dish would do better? Any help would be appreciated!
S
I did some more investigating and found I got the MeTV mux in the early hours, until about 6am then the pixelating starts. Gets worse until around 8am its totally gone. I suspect my local cell tower is ramping up traffic as the morning goes on. My Titanium feed does a super job and most everything is clear that wasn't before but this mux is aggravating! I seem to just be over the signal threshold to work until the 5G total overwhelms my system. I'm using an old 9 foot spun aluminum dish and was wondering if I went to a 12 ft dish this would solve the problem? I know bigger is better in most satellite dish related signal problems. If this is true I will be searching for a bigger dish. I like your idea of flashing put around the dish perimeter. I have some I need to dig out and try before I start ripping out my dish. Anybody have any ideas if the bigger dish would do better? Any help would be appreciated!
8 1/2 Foot mesh here with the c140 lnbf and a verizon 5g tower nearby. Got no issue with the Metv transponder. Are you sure you have the lnbf setup correct? When I set my c140 up I noticed it was about 1/4 to 1/2 inch pushed in closer to the dish, sticking out of the scaler ring than my old lnbf was. Thought I may have trouble with that but my signal readings are higher than they had ever been.
B
8 1/2 Foot mesh here with the c140 lnbf and a verizon 5g tower nearby. Got no issue with the Metv transponder. Are you sure you have the lnbf setup correct? When I set my c140 up I noticed it was about 1/4 to 1/2 inch pushed in closer to the dish, sticking out of the scaler ring than my old lnbf was. Thought I may have trouble with that but my signal readings are higher than they had ever been.
Thanks for the info. I'll do a detailed feed alignment this weekend. I have to be on a ladder to tweak this 101w satellite with the MeTV mux. Luckily I've got a V8 Finder so I'll put that to use. Funny, I got the MeTV mux fine this Friday morning. Jewelry TV was completely garbled though. I'm wondering if I'm having 2 degree spacing problems more than the cell tower affecting me. Seems strange some days I'm fine and others MeTV is completely destroyed. In the old days I could just move the dish to 99w and see what's there adjacent to MeTV. Maybe if I optimize my feed I can eliminate my problem either way. I have a 9 foot spun aluminum dish that may not have the best two degree isolation. Some of these were crudely made with a poor parabolic shape. I'll keep you posted and thanks to all for the advice!
arlo
Just some rambling here. Be safe on that ladder.
Took me about 20 seconds looking at a YouTube video showing the V8 Finder in use. A spectrum analyzer display.
Well, Cool! And it can power an lnbf stand alone. More cooler.
Well there's your 5g interference wonderment solution. IF you had a spare C band lnbf. Put it on a stick and go "wardriving". If 5g towers are blowing out signals strong enough to cause interference in your dish. Well.....
And off-axis, not in the same direction as the dish is pointed? Don't exactly know.

Take a drive around and look at towers with microwave dishes bolted to them. You'll see that a large share of them do have a perimeter shield. Further diving into the likes of Andrews show shields as an optional add-on to do just what you think they should do. Block adjacent interference. Probably a good idea when multiple units are on the same, or adjacent towers. Ya' think?

Some not-so-many years ago when I dove into this whole dish antenna thing. I replaced the c/ku band corotor feed with a Titanium C2-W. Being a good boy. Assuming that the original scalar was in the proper position from day one back in the 80's. I followed instructions and stuck the unit in the hole and bolted it down at the stamped marking as per instructions. I got my first signal finally with the Zgemma H7. I was thinking "that's it?". Signal sucked.
Then I looked at how the corotor feed was located looking at the bolt marks on the tube.
It was like focusing a telescope or camera. In the end. I was getting pretty good signals. That was in the dead of winter. And I hate the cold.

A buttonhook feed support. Give a margin of adjustability versus perimeter arm scalar supports.
And a lot of reading and experimenting showed that although the scalar was probably where it should be. Isn't anymore. The focal length / fd ratio calculations probably are right. If you have a perfect parabolic dish.
Mine ain't. And its old. Most probably not a perfect parabola since it was. As well as the polar mount. Fabricated locally.
I spoke to the old guy who installed all of them here back in the heyday. Started installing Prodelin dishes.
Everyone was watching HBO and Playboy. At 3-5 grand a pop.
He told me that him and his sons made a concrete form. Finished with a plaster top coat. And started spraying resin and chopped fiberglass. Then a metal flame sprayer like is used to build up crankshafts and stuff. Finished with several more layers of 'glass. The rest. Polar mount, cast iron pole mount. Contracted locally.
That's the story. I took that old beast and if you've seen Pootie Tang. I juvenated it and then rejuvenated it.

I think that one thing to remember is that in an lnbf. All of the satellite signal amping is done in the low noise amplifier section. What signal is blown out to the coax is done in the intermediate frequency amplifier section.
So what comes in the waveguide is what it is.
I've used several receivers. Different Enigma2 images on the same receiver show different signal levels. It's a software thing. Signal calibration and display. Don't forget that. One image might not give a signal lock on a weak transponder. Fire up another? Look at the TNAP images. An option to display signal below lock.
The only real way to tell the absolute signal level you get in the house is to use a certified spectrum analyzer/service monitor.

BTW. I'm on MeTV right now. Book 'em Danno. Purposefully aimed off-axis just above the threshold of pixelation.
Only thing I see is that the sun came and the sun went. That's where I saw break up for a half hour or so.
B
Just some rambling here. Be safe on that ladder.
Took me about 20 seconds looking at a YouTube video showing the V8 Finder in use. A spectrum analyzer display.
Well, Cool! And it can power an lnbf stand alone. More cooler.
Well there's your 5g interference wonderment solution. IF you had a spare C band lnbf. Put it on a stick and go "wardriving". If 5g towers are blowing out signals strong enough to cause interference in your dish. Well.....
And off-axis, not in the same direction as the dish is pointed? Don't exactly know.

Take a drive around and look at towers with microwave dishes bolted to them. You'll see that a large share of them do have a perimeter shield. Further diving into the likes of Andrews show shields as an optional add-on to do just what you think they should do. Block adjacent interference. Probably a good idea when multiple units are on the same, or adjacent towers. Ya' think?

Some not-so-many years ago when I dove into this whole dish antenna thing. I replaced the c/ku band corotor feed with a Titanium C2-W. Being a good boy. Assuming that the original scalar was in the proper position from day one back in the 80's. I followed instructions and stuck the unit in the hole and bolted it down at the stamped marking as per instructions. I got my first signal finally with the Zgemma H7. I was thinking "that's it?". Signal sucked.
Then I looked at how the corotor feed was located looking at the bolt marks on the tube.
It was like focusing a telescope or camera. In the end. I was getting pretty good signals. That was in the dead of winter. And I hate the cold.

A buttonhook feed support. Give a margin of adjustability versus perimeter arm scalar supports.
And a lot of reading and experimenting showed that although the scalar was probably where it should be. Isn't anymore. The focal length / fd ratio calculations probably are right. If you have a perfect parabolic dish.
Mine ain't. And its old. Most probably not a perfect parabola since it was. As well as the polar mount. Fabricated locally.
I spoke to the old guy who installed all of them here back in the heyday. Started installing Prodelin dishes.
Everyone was watching HBO and Playboy. At 3-5 grand a pop.
He told me that him and his sons made a concrete form. Finished with a plaster top coat. And started spraying resin and chopped fiberglass. Then a metal flame sprayer like is used to build up crankshafts and stuff. Finished with several more layers of 'glass. The rest. Polar mount, cast iron pole mount. Contracted locally.
That's the story. I took that old beast and if you've seen Pootie Tang. I juvenated it and then rejuvenated it.

I think that one thing to remember is that in an lnbf. All of the satellite signal amping is done in the low noise amplifier section. What signal is blown out to the coax is done in the intermediate frequency amplifier section.
So what comes in the waveguide is what it is.
I've used several receivers. Different Enigma2 images on the same receiver show different signal levels. It's a software thing. Signal calibration and display. Don't forget that. One image might not give a signal lock on a weak transponder. Fire up another? Look at the TNAP images. An option to display signal below lock.
The only real way to tell the absolute signal level you get in the house is to use a certified spectrum analyzer/service monitor.

BTW. I'm on MeTV right now. Book 'em Danno. Purposefully aimed off-axis just above the threshold of pixelation.
Only thing I see is that the sun came and the sun went. That's where I saw break up for a half hour or so.
Well summing it up in one word...success! I spent about 2 hours tweaking the feed. Found I was almost 2 inches too far from the actual focal length. Plus adjusting the skew just a hair made a big difference. I measured 3 points around the dish from the edge to the outside of the scalar ring. One side measured 51 inches and the other 53, Adjusting the button hook feed I was able to get it 52 inches all the way around the dish perimeter to the scalar. I had my doubts this would fix anything but when I turned on the satellite finder I had all the channels in the MeTV mux coming in clear! No more fading away different times of the day and night. Plus the Jewelry channels are all solid also. I'm just wondering...did this just give me more signal to overcome the interference or did properly aligning the feed effectively "blocked out" the 5G interference? Sort of wondering about sidelobes in the old parabolic antenna manuals of the 80s. Just happy to have things working correctly now. Thanks to all who helped especially to Arlo who spent a lot of time commenting to me. Best regards!
primestar31
Well summing it up in one word...success! I spent about 2 hours tweaking the feed. Found I was almost 2 inches too far from the actual focal length. Plus adjusting the skew just a hair made a big difference. I measured 3 points around the dish from the edge to the outside of the scalar ring. One side measured 51 inches and the other 53, Adjusting the button hook feed I was able to get it 52 inches all the way around the dish perimeter to the scalar. I had my doubts this would fix anything but when I turned on the satellite finder I had all the channels in the MeTV mux coming in clear! No more fading away different times of the day and night. Plus the Jewelry channels are all solid also. I'm just wondering...did this just give me more signal to overcome the interference or did properly aligning the feed effectively "blocked out" the 5G interference? Sort of wondering about sidelobes in the old parabolic antenna manuals of the 80s. Just happy to have things working correctly now. Thanks to all who helped especially to Arlo who spent a lot of time commenting to me. Best regards!
Do NOT mess with it anymore just "trying to get it a tiny bit better" than you just got it... I've been through that HELL more times then I'd want to admit.
arlo
Very cool there Brown's. My intentions are good. Sometimes tact....not so much.
I'm glad you could read through the nebula of gunk.
If I can dig through my pictures directory you might pick-up a few things I've done to and made to get as perfect alignment as possible. Your journey shows how a bit of common sense and experimentation while using known guides as a starting point (at least). The phone book just isn't full of big dish service providers like way way back.

To help. A true parabola will converge all incident rays. Light, RF. At one single point. You kind of answered your question. Two inches too close/far from the convergence point (focus) degrades signal strength. If you ever get a chance to examine a telescope. The eyepiece is on a rack. You can adjust the position of the eyepiece distance from the objective. Depending on the eyepiece. The sharpest focus is only at one finely adjusted distance.
Make sense?
And for a telescope made with mirrors. The ultimate eyepiece aim. Imagining a tiny spot right in the center of the glass lens. Will be aimed exactly at the center of the mirror. A small mirror, prism, adjustment screws assists in attaining that perfect place where a star way way back in time shows as a perfect spot. Not an ellipse, etc.
Yeah.

Who knows about the 5g thing? Did your tweaks optimize where the receiver finally got enough usable DVB signal to lock onto them and reject 5g? The crowded room full of drunks thing?

Edit:
Yeah that tiny little bit can drive you nuts.The best and only way is to find a weak transponder on a sat that doesn't "swamp" signal levels. With a matching opposite polarity having close to the same signal level.
There will be a lot of tweaking with an extended arm and......thick cotton gloves. Your body, extremities, close to the lnbf will effect signals. Then just when you think you got it. In your case. Climb down the ladder and get out of the way to see what becomes.
I got obsessed and was out there in 10 degree winter on a step ladder on clear nights.
Tweaking elevation, azimuth, declination. Unbolted actuator gearbox and vice grips. Trying to get the best of the best tracking. Adding those porch rail stainless steel turnbuckles and catv messenger wire from the rim to the scalar to bring 'er back into kilter did wonders. Don't be me. Watch MeTV!
M
Last reply · posted in Over the Air Television By RabbitEars.Info
Interesting article about the work being done to develope an ATSC 3 converter box. Yes it does mention affordable.
11 Replies · 566 views
primestar31
DEATH TO NEXGEN!
star trek GIF


It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.
Mister B
What bothers me is the total waste of broadcasting spectrum in this very crowded market. It has been almost three years now since KFOX converted their broadcast tower to ATSC 3.0 and moved all of their channels to other towers causing noticeable degradation of the picture quality.
I have a Sony TV with 3.0 capabilities but still use the 1.0 version of locals due to the fact that one or all of the 3.0 channels are often missing or unwatchable. In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.
The only thing that could motivate me to be interested in 3.0 would be if all of the minor networks (diginets) could be in at least 720P rather than blurry ultra-compressed 480i.
Three years is long enough to waste one of the few available RF frequencies in the area for this trial.
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.
navychop
In this city of 800K I doubt that more than a few hundred even know about ATSC 3.0.

They might notice the hand going into their pocket for their wallet.
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navychop
It is time to either move on with this experiment or call it quits.

QFT. Of course, my preference involves a curb and some kicking.
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S
star trek GIF


It's dead, they just don't know it yet. They killed it by forcing DRM on it, and that TOTALLY botched implementing it.

There is absolutely NO compelling reason for anybody to switch to ATSC3.0. They only want it as a total and complete money grab.
WHAT ABOUT THE INTERNET PART OF IT. NO ONE WANTS A BOX CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET EITHER.
navychop
Cough, cough. COVID vaccine implants.

:oldlaugh
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dishstaller
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Love this guy's channel. Looks like Walmart has thrown in the towel when it comes to conventional car batteries.

I bought a new AGM battery from Walmart about a year ago, it is already needing replacing. I thought about just buying a regular battery but from what I've read, that might not be a smart move. Might check my Forscan program and see if I can change the battery type from AGM.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awe7kY5nvdU
20 Replies · 253 views
harshness
When you need a battery, you need a battery.

If you can wait, new technologies are on the not-too-distant horizon.

You're probably doing something wrong if you're only getting a year out of an AGM battery. Heat and infrequent charging both significantly reduce lifetime.
dishstaller
You're probably doing something wrong if you're only getting a year out of an AGM battery. Heat and infrequent charging both significantly reduce lifetime.
Huh? How can I be doing something wrong.....I took out the original battery, that was 6 yrs old and put in a new one.....kinda hard to screw that up. I figure it was just a bad battery....it happens.


The biggest takeaway I got from this video was the Walmart batteries only had something like 85% of battery life left even though they were brand NEW. The ones from O'Reilly all tested 100% of life left.
Jimbo
Huh? How can I be doing something wrong.....I took out the original battery, that was 6 yrs old and put in a new one.....kinda hard to screw that up. I figure it was just a bad battery....it happens.


The biggest takeaway I got from this video was the Walmart batteries only had something like 85% of battery life left even though they were brand NEW. The ones from O'Reilly all tested 100% of life left.
And the Walmart ones mostly had very little warranty.

My last AGM (using now) I got from O Rielly's, its the Super Start ... I got the Platnium, they had several to choose from.
harshness
And the Walmart ones mostly had very little warranty.
The days of the 84-month warranty appear long gone, regardless of brand or where you acquired it. Warranties tend to be shorter, with much greater dependence on quick prorating.

The big problem for lead-acid batteries (whether flooded or AGM) is that the US no longer produces lead (the last smelter closed in 2013) and must import it.

Recycling covers a good chunk of the need (~70%), but it isn't free.
EarDemon
I've always got regular OEM Ford Motorcraft batteries from the dealership and have never really had an issue. On my old Lincoln Aviator (the SUV from the early 00s, not the CUV of today), I had some phantom drain and went though a few batteries, but that was an anomaly and with the standard warranty I got free replacements. Taking the Aviator out of the picture, I've bought two batteries in my 24 years of driving. One battery replacement in my Mountaineer, one in my Navigator. But I probably would have had another one had I kept it around longer. Didn't have the Bronco long enough, and so far still on the factory battery for my Expedition.

I run more than the average bear. Dash cam, two radar detectors (yes, I'm aware that can be problematic when using simultaneously), laser jammers and a police scanner. I'm in Buffalo, 90 degree summers and 0 degree winters. Once in a while in the dead of winter I'll get an alert from the Ford app saying remote features have been disabled to conserve battery, but it starts right up.
dishstaller
I run more than the average bear. Dash cam, two radar detectors (yes, I'm aware that can be problematic when using simultaneously), laser jammers and a police scanner.
warrior.webp
primestar31
I've always got regular OEM Ford Motorcraft batteries from the dealership and have never really had an issue. On my old Lincoln Aviator (the SUV from the early 00s, not the CUV of today), I had some phantom drain and went though a few batteries, but that was an anomaly and with the standard warranty I got free replacements. Taking the Aviator out of the picture, I've bought two batteries in my 24 years of driving. One battery replacement in my Mountaineer, one in my Navigator. But I probably would have had another one had I kept it around longer. Didn't have the Bronco long enough, and so far still on the factory battery for my Expedition.

I run more than the average bear. Dash cam, two radar detectors (yes, I'm aware that can be problematic when using simultaneously), laser jammers and a police scanner. I'm in Buffalo, 90 degree summers and 0 degree winters. Once in a while in the dead of winter I'll get an alert from the Ford app saying remote features have been disabled to conserve battery, but it starts right up.
But do you have a license plate mounted on your car? lol
EarDemon
Yes, but with smokey covers. I realize they are not a countermeasure for photos or photo radar, but it helps obscure from the average persons eyeballs. Plus with the way licensee plates peel around here, it keeps them protected from the elements.

When I went to a countermeasure meetup over the summer, one of the guys who's planning on doing a cannonball had a plate flipper. While I play fast and loose (pun intended) with these idiotic traffic laws, a plate flipper is something I wouldn't dare use. Although having one in the front to flip to no license plate when traveling though states that don't require one is tempting. Am I really going to get pulled over in Kentucky for having no front NY license plate? This way it cuts down on reflective surfaces and might be helpful with laser avoidance and gives the jammers a better chance to react especially on a larger vehicle. Although LEO is typically trained to hit headlights with their LIDAR.
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68636 Replies · 2679201 views
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long_time_Dish
Bakers Street - Gerry Rafferty
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Bobby
Bakers Street - Gerry Rafferty
Let me fix that for you:
Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
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EatMyVolts
The 59th Street Bridge Song -- Simon & Garfunkel
long_time_Dish
52nd Street - Billy Joel
ClarkGable
Caribbean Queen - Billy Ocean
osu1991
Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
3 Replies · 32 views
Bobby
Rest in peace.
sdfntx
Sorry to hear this. R.I.P.
FTA4PA
R.I.P.
N
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum
My OTA is not working anymore. This started after the latest update. I have the OTA dongle with a OTA antenna that I've been using for years. My hopper does not recognize the dongle anymore and when I go to the OTA setting, it has a screen that says to plug a dongle into the USB. I tried unplugging and plugging back, in the same usb port and other ports. The Hopper does not recognize it. Anyone have same issue?
204 Replies · 5634 views
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dishstaller
Installed an off-air antenna a couple days ago for a customer who had just cancelled his Dish service. He had a dual off-air adapter and gave it to me. Cool. I'll keep it on the truck....might come in handy. Got to admit I don't watch anything as far as live tv goes anymore. Even if we have severe weather, our local channels will have a live feed on Youtube.
navychop
In other news, it was announced that the software fix for the two tin cans and a string will not be forthcoming. A hardware fix is required. However, that fix will let you receive stations from a gazillion miles away.

Truck roll charges may apply. Two year commitment required.
brittanygarden
Hi all. If you were using a single tuner USB OTA adapter that is no longer working, please PM me. Thanks. :)
Jim5506
Hi all. If you were using a single tuner USB OTA adapter that is no longer working, please PM me. Thanks. :)
I have the dual tuner OTA adapter currently connected, but I have 2 of the single tuner OTA adapters that I can quickly connect - neither is seen by my H3.
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B
Got the dual tuner OTA adapter, was able to set it up and get back my OTA channels. Thanks to everyone and extra thanks to the DISH reps in this forum!
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network
0 Replies · 11 views
meStevo
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section
Schedule drops tomorrow. Mandatory mini camps in June. Hall of Fame game August 6th.
128 Replies · 2404 views
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rvvaquero
Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson had an argument about who was responsible for the dynasty building of the early 90's Cowboys.

The rest of us figured it out in about 3 years, Jerry has had over 30 years but still can't admit it. It's all he lives for, to show everyone he can put together a winner. I don't think he can. His kids only know what he taught them.
Y
Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson had an argument about who was responsible for the dynasty building of the early 90's Cowboys.

The rest of us figured it out in about 3 years, Jerry has had over 30 years but still can't admit it. It's all he lives for, to show everyone he can put together a winner. I don't think he can. His kids only know what he taught them.
Johnson built it, but without the Herschel Walker trade, it never happens.
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b4pjoe
Johnson built it, but without the Herschel Walker trade, it never happens.
Jerry made himself General Manager after he bought the team but make no mistake Jimmy engineered that trade. As well as a lot of others at the time.
rvvaquero
Jimmy Johnson is a football guy. Jerry Jones is a marketer (hustler).

When I see a football player get a 15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct (like taunting) in a close game, I often wonder what he was thinking. Was he thinking, I'm doing everything I can to make this a better team and help win a championship? Or, was he saying to himself, I want everyone to notice how great I am?

Johnson inspires one, Jones the other.
meStevo
Got to unfurl and hold the flag at Allegiant for the anthem today - amazing experience.
HipKat
Balls
Bears. Gave the Pats a good beatdown.
Bucs. Got Baker back and absolutely demolished the previously surprising Panthers.
Falcons. Took care of the 49ers and did so convincingly.
Vikings. I hate them. I do. I've never seen such a bad/good team. Know what I mean? I know their D is epic. But their O is insulting. How they remain undefeated is a mystery.
Rams. Finally looked the part. Mind you against the hapless Cards.
Cowboys. Fireworks performance from their O.
Dolphins. Finally logged in a W. There won't be many. Enjoy it, Miami fans.
Browns. Still atop the AFC North.
Giants. Epic OT win with Buffalo's very own Motor Singletary finishing it off.
Seattle. Dominated KC from start to finish.

Goats
Jets. Couldn't beat the winless Dolphins. Aaron Glenn is a dead man walking.
Eagles. Injured beyond repair
Ravens and Lamar. Has he ever played a full season? Honestly, dude is fragile. Of course he's back for the Bills game.
49ers. No longer undefeated.
Colts. A sh*t show. When are they gonna realize that Daniel Jones is ass?
Steelers vs Saints game. Ass, just ass all around. Those poor people in Paris have had enough lately, and on top of that, endure that game.
Chiefs. They looked terrible. Like really bad.
Pack vs. Detroit game refs. Some of the worst refereeing I've seen in a long time. And the sample is pretty large.
TRG
TRG
Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in Local Radio Discussion
21 Replies · 620 views
dishdude
It's probably been 2 decades since I've listened to an AM radio station. Very rarely listen to FM any more.
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Jimbo
I am 1 that wants the AM to Stay ....
That said, since '08 I have had Sat radio available to me ... I think I have turned on AM 3 or 4 times, just to see if its still there.

Fwiw, if theres a Major disaster or bad weather or whatever, the chances of me finding out about it by going to the AM side of the radio is SLIM and None.
Even FM, I haven't really had on since '13ish, I may turn it on from time to time, just to see if its still there.
harshness
Fwiw, if theres a Major disaster or bad weather or whatever, the chances of me finding out about it by going to the AM side of the radio is SLIM and None.
Automation has seen to that. You can't get evening drive traffic reports where I live, much less disaster reports.
dishstaller
Very rarely listen to FM any more
That goes for a lot of people. I've been advertising on radio for more than a decade now and am very familiar with this subject. While it is still a valuable tool, it has far less impact than it did just a few years ago. The best reaction I get is from a local Country music station....they play a mix of older and newer music and have a very big footprint.
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Jimbo
That goes for a lot of people. I've been advertising on radio for more than a decade now and am very familiar with this subject. While it is still a valuable tool, it has far less impact than it did just a few years ago. The best reaction I get is from a local Country music station....they play a mix of older and newer music and have a very big footprint.
Do you do any Ad's on Satellite ?

If Not, why not, because it's not Local ?
dishstaller
Do you do any Ad's on Satellite ?

If Not, why not, because it's not Local ?
No, just regular FM stations. One is the country station I mentioned and the other is a Talk Radio station which used to get fantastic results but honestly, since the death of Rush Limbaugh, talk radio just doesn't do as well. There were two guys who had an early morning show which was hugely popular here in the southeast but one of them retired a couple years ago and the show just doesn't garner the same numbers as it used to.
S
Haven't listened AM or FM in years