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Gates? Yes. All the way. He brought the IBM platform into the reach of the everyday guy who wanted to build and have a computer that didn't cost a horse full of feathers. It was and still is a lucrative business for the pc parts guy selling components to make a killer pc. I have no complaints of the MS operating systems. No matter what all of the "Oh but Linux is so much better" soap box standers say. I don't wanna learn how to grow trees, run a sawmill, forge nails, float glass.....all of that crap just to live in a house.
Jobs on the other hand. Or "Ob-lay-ob-jay" in his Star Wars character would have been portrayed as.
Built in proprietary hardware to meld with his OS. Hell. On a Saturday evening if your graphics card went south. You couldn't run down to CompUSA of Patel's House of PC's to buy a new one. It had to be "i" this or "i" that.
Or to coin Retina as a particular technology. And some "air" crap just to get on the Internet.
And now. Soldered-in storage? Come on, man. As that guy you voted for is known for saying. Non political, of course. But. God Damn! A phrase, nothing religious, of course.
Hackintosh has a good following."Hackinsoft" doesn't have to nor needs to exist. Although in ways I guess it kinda' does.
Mr. Blinkey flashes your screen a few times. And magically "your stuff" goes or comes from "some place" in the box. "i" don't want it, "i" don't need it. Same for you, John Deere.

arlo said:

Gates? Yes. All the way. He brought the IBM platform into the reach of the everyday guy who wanted to build and have a computer that didn't cost a horse full of feathers.

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I'm going to guess that you weren't much involved in the computer world in the early days of the IBM PC because what you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense in that context. Back in the early 1980s, IBM PCs were stupid expensive and the user experience was vastly inferior to those presented by the Kaypro, Sol, Eagle, Apple ][, Commodore 64 and Atari computers of the day. What Bill Gates produced (with perhaps a majority effort from Paul Allen) was a version of the BASIC programming language (that was also present in one form or another in all of the 8 bit computers of the day). PC/MS-DOS was a re-tooling of Seattle Computing's Seattle DOS that Gates had strong-armed. If you're looking for someone to thank for affordable alternatives, you would be better served by calling out Compaq and Columbia Data Products.

arlo said:

It was and still is a lucrative business for the pc parts guy selling components to make a killer pc.

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Computers aren't about peddlers or service technicians making a buck. Computers are supposed to make things better for those who use them.

arlo said:

I have no complaints of the MS operating systems. No matter what all of the "Oh but Linux is so much better" soap box standers say. I don't wanna learn how to grow trees, run a sawmill, forge nails, float glass.....all of that crap just to live in a house.

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It seems you're also lost at sea in terms of your knowledge of the current state of non-Microsoft platforms.

harshness said:

I'm going to guess that you weren't much involved in the computer world in the early days of the IBM PC because what you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense in that context. Back in the early 1980s, IBM PCs were stupid expensive and the user experience was vastly inferior to those presented by the Kaypro, Sol, Eagle, Apple ][, Commodore 64 and Atari computers of the day. What Bill Gates produced (with perhaps a majority effort from Paul Allen) was a version of the BASIC programming language (that was also present in one form or another in all of the 8 bit computers of the day). PC/MS-DOS was a re-tooling of Seattle Computing's Seattle DOS that Gates had strong-armed. If you're looking for someone to thank for affordable alternatives, you would be better served by calling out Compaq and Columbia Data Products.

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Hooyeah I was. In the 70's when my dad was in the USAF and we were stationed in Athens. I took a BASIC programming class. Typing programs on a Teletype 33 ASR on paper tape. Then the teacher would proof the program before we were allowed to connect to the time share to run them. The next class would have been FORTRAN. I never got to see the mainframe. But it was cool to learn.
Later on back in the States mom got a little TRS80. I can dig it out if you please. Lot's of time on that.
The Commodore 64 sits in the attic. So does the floppy drive. So does the Okidata impact printer. And piles of Compute magazine and such.
Typing in line after line of numeric code to make a game didn't teach squat. Peek and poke and crap like that.
So. That should loosen up your brain cage a touch.
IBM PC's of the day WERE stupid expensive. And with the tech advances of the day, your brand spankin' new 486 was soon made a snail by the Pentium Processor splashed all over the TV. And so on and so on.
Let's leave that open discussion for now. I thank nobody at all.
But. You aint livin' until you sat by a VMS system eating your lunch while it booted up....if it did the first try.
Or performed a weekend of software updates with tape cartridges with your fingers crosssed hoping to not see "Invalid Checksum. Please reload updates".

harshness said:

Computers aren't about peddlers or service technicians making a buck. Computers are supposed to make things better for those who use them.

It seems you're also lost at sea in terms of your knowledge of the current state of non-Microsoft platforms.

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ZOOOM (right over harsh-style's cranial cavity).
Computers DID become a lot about being affordable and the ability to assemble one and load an OS somewhat of your choice. With Bill G's incantation being the winner usually.
For TONS less than the comparable CompUSA IBM PC or Dell of the day. Packard Bell, Compaq. Take your pick.
If you think cars are all about the driving experience. And the smile (or of late...frown) per mile. Well, you're vastly missing something. The dealer is counting on you coming back for service. If Jimmy's Garage can do an oil change for 30-50% of what the dealer charges. Hey. It's your cash.
Do I care about the state of any platform computer related? Nah. Not really.
Remember. I ain't the dude who planted the seedling to grow trees for lumber nor did I mine ore to make nails.

Ink ink ink. People buy ink. Then they buy ink to replace the ink that dried up. And when that don't work.
They buy another printer that uses.....you guessed it. Ink.
Tons better than the old Okidata impact line printer.

So there is one...just one for good 'ole Steve when he introduced Laser Xeorgraphy to the masses.....of Apple users. Before the days if "i-everything".

Am I up on tech? Maybe. Rumors.
I hear a new model of the iPad may be coming out. More compact. With an easily tucked away, comfortable case. And a high capacity battery and more storage. For those "busy days".
Introducing the iPax.

arlo said:

That should loosen up your brain cage a touch.

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It would have had it not appeared that you have completely forgotten what those other platforms were like in comparison the early IBM PCs. Early IBM PCs were more like glorified CP/M machines of the day without the library of software.

arlo said:

IBM PC's of the day WERE stupid expensive. And with the tech advances of the day, your brand spankin' new 486 was soon made a snail by the Pentium Processor splashed all over the TV. And so on and so on.

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An this is a happy thing?

arlo said:

But. You aint livin' until you sat by a VMS system eating your lunch while it booted up....if it did the first try.
Or performed a weekend of software updates with tape cartridges with your fingers crosssed hoping to not see "Invalid Checksum. Please reload updates".

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I've loaded PDP/8 BASIC in using switch registers and paper tape so I do know all about that. My first business-class hard drives were 5MB CDC Hawks (both fixed and cartridge) connected to a machine based on a two-board CPU in an S100 frame (Alpha Micro AM-100).

arlo said:

ZOOOM (right over harsh-style's cranial cavity).
Computers DID become a lot about being affordable and the ability to assemble one and load an OS somewhat of your choice. With Bill G's incantation being the winner usually.

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Your choices on the early IBM PCs were PC-DOS and MS-DOS. Not really a choice. At issue is why Microsoft's products prevailed (and it rarely had anything to do with goodness or suitability to the task).

arlo said:

For TONS less than the comparable CompUSA IBM PC or Dell of the day. Packard Bell, Compaq. Take your pick.

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This is where the value crept in. Of course many of these machines were a little "wonky" and may not run 1-2-3 or Flight Simulator as well as a true blue IBM PC. While you had to go to a computer store to even see a PC compatible, you could buy a Commodore or Atari 8-bit at Sears or Monkey Wards. Computers need to be both affordable and available to be of real benefit to the masses.

arlo said:

If you think cars are all about the driving experience. And the smile (or of late...frown) per mile. Well, you're vastly missing something. The dealer is counting on you coming back for service. If Jimmy's Garage can do an oil change for 30-50% of what the dealer charges. Hey. It's your cash.

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Again, why is financially supporting a technician important to the typical user? I suspect you have conflicting interests.

arlo said:

Do I care about the state of any platform computer related? Nah. Not really.
Remember. I ain't the dude who planted the seedling to grow trees for lumber nor did I mine ore to make nails.

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But you may be the guy who is making bank off of fixing computers.

arlo said:

Ink ink ink. People buy ink. Then they buy ink to replace the ink that dried up. And when that don't work.
They buy another printer that uses.....you guessed it. Ink.
Tons better than the old Okidata impact line printer.

Click to expand...

Okidata printer ribbon cartridges were cheap and the could last more than a year (more if you were into re-inking). Ink and toner cartridges are relatively expensive and they have more or less a fixed life.

arlo said:

So there is one...just one for good 'ole Steve when he introduced Laser Xeorgraphy to the masses.....of Apple users. Before the days if "i-everything".

Click to expand...

The Apple LaserWriter was more or less a rebranding the HP LaserJet of the day (using a CANON LASER engine) with an ADB port. Yes, the logo cost alot but Jobs certainly didn't invent the LASER printer. As much as the Macintosh appeared unique, it wasn't a huge improvement over Xerox's Alto, GEOS or GEM operating systems of the day.

In all of this bluster, you still haven't answered the question: why do you think that Gates or Jobs were instrumental in advancing technology as fast as it could have gone and bringing computing to the masses. It seems to me that you've carefully avoided the issue that you raised.

DOS ain't done until Lotus won't run!

harshness said:

It would have had it not appeared that you have completely forgotten what those other platforms were like in comparison the early IBM PCs. Early IBM PCs were more like glorified CP/M machines of the day without the library of software.

An this is a happy thing?

I've loaded PDP/8 BASIC in using switch registers and paper tape so I do know all about that. My first business-class hard drives were 5MB CDC Hawks (both fixed and cartridge) connected to a machine based on a two-board CPU in an S100 frame (Alpha Micro AM-100).

Your choices on the early IBM PCs were PC-DOS and MS-DOS. Not really a choice. At issue is why Microsoft's products prevailed (and it rarely had anything to do with goodness or suitability to the task).

This is where the value crept in. Of course many of these machines were a little "wonky" and may not run 1-2-3 or Flight Simulator as well as a true blue IBM PC. While you had to go to a computer store to even see a PC compatible, you could buy a Commodore or Atari 8-bit at Sears or Monkey Wards. Computers need to be both affordable and available to be of real benefit to the masses.

Again, why is financially supporting a technician important to the typical user? I suspect you have conflicting interests.

But you may be the guy who is making bank off of fixing computers.

Okidata printer ribbon cartridges were cheap and the could last more than a year (more if you were into re-inking). Ink and toner cartridges are relatively expensive and they have more or less a fixed life.

The Apple LaserWriter was more or less a rebranding the HP LaserJet of the day (using a CANON LASER engine) with an ADB port. Yes, the logo cost alot but Jobs certainly didn't invent the LASER printer. As much as the Macintosh appeared unique, it wasn't a huge improvement over Xerox's Alto, GEOS or GEM operating systems of the day.

In all of this bluster, you still haven't answered the question: why do you think that Gates or Jobs were instrumental in advancing technology as fast as it could have gone and bringing computing to the masses. It seems to me that you've carefully avoided the issue that you raised.

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I got some time. Backards/Forards......
Up until Billy and Esteban introduced a GUI based OS easily understood by anybody. That actually made sense. Didn't require prior months of education to operate. And actually did something. Did not only home computing, but also business computing really come alive. Production and efficiency went logarithmic. Over night. With each and every introduction of newer technology.
Ditching what subjects? You wanna' book? I'll show you how to write an Excel formula. You show me the spreadsheet you created. That I've done.

Until Apple introduced their laser printer. Desktop publishing was largely typewriters.
Yeah. Sure. Commodore 64's and GEOS were a leap forward in a big way. But you were still bound to pin fed, perf page forms that you had to wait for hearing 'myiip myiip myiip' over and over as the impact head hammered out dots of maybe....maybe a few "fonts".
Actually HP started out using a Brother printing engine. Later on adapting to Canon technology. That's a fact, Jack.
In my opinion the HP5si was the ultimate workhorse of the laser printer force. I've see rows of them operating day after day with 500k to over 1.5 million pages. Most with periodic roller replacements and paper feed units and fusers that could be swapped out quickly. And continue to run...with the exact same laser and spinning mirror engine they were born with. For oh....fitty, a hunderd bucks.
Yeah. The days of impact printers. A can-o-wd40 to refresh ribbons. Ripping off edges and decollating pages.
They made machines for that, dontcha' know!

For the tech. You're partially and mostly wrong. Toner in a laser lasts an incredibly long time. Provided you don't live in the tropics. Flip on a laser that's sat for 6 months. The toner is stirred. The drum is charged. The fuser heats. Hit print. A page comes out. Duplexed and dry. No streaks. And I've used millions and millions of pages of reman toner cartridges in the past with very, very few defects. For a fraction of the cost of OEM.

And spanked the ass of Xerox and their 145 page/minute, on site tech, down and apart every few days lasers. Mandatory maintenance and proprietary consumables.
With rows of HP lasers printing 50 pages/minute each.
All running reman carts.
When 1 Xerox goes down. You get 0 output until fixed.
Do the math. IF one HP of 10 went down....you got 9 still churning.
Xerox hated me. Management? I "invented" the idea and with the help of the DP dept.guru.
Before long. 2 other branches were doing what used to come out of Jacksonville and trucked half the way across the state.

3 bases covered......

"Making Bank". Haha. Capn' Hood-Rat at work here, me thinks. I got a little 100 grit and a red Scotchbrite to flatten the edges. We'll transform ya' to "Smoothenss". People will be callin' ya Steve McQueen before long.
Maybe the Gorillaz will publish a vid like they did for Clint!
Now that ain't neither political nor religious. That, I will bank on.
Well. Heallyeah! Without me my former industry would have been crippled. I kept it ALL running. My expertise...electronics and automation. But in actuality it was lightning rods to sewer pipes. And everything in-between. I must have done well. How many could keep a job after the CEO walks past admiring a well oiled production "machine". Asking me.....oops....respect...in your hood at least..."Axing".....me.
"So, hows everything working.....is all of the equipment up to par?"
"Hey. I'm your Ex-Lax"
.....to a brief pause of confusion from the big boss.
"I keep your sh*t runnin' ".
And I got to come back to work for years and years and years.
Yeah. I made some bucks.

Backwards more. Financially supporting? I dunno. BMW wanting 15g's to replace a computer and wiring harness for a friend due to water intrusion. Me. A few hours de-pinning and checking connectors. Remove a bit of green corrosion. An 8 buck Omron relay from DigiKey. The car runs perfect. Why? Because like a dog who licks himself. Because I could.
Support your tech.

Amiga. Now that was genius. Years and years after the C64, 2E, 286's were shelved. Them there Amiger doods still were out there rockin'.
MS stuff "prevailing". Apple stuff prevailing. The GUI. Not having to load floppies, tapes, Zip discs. Or in your world. Stabilizing the geology surrounding you while a stack of platters came up to gyroscopic speed for a whopping 5 megs (or 10 megs if you were super rich) of storage.
Flip a switch and wait....and sometimes wait. For a desktop to appear. And pick up where you left off on.

Lastly. And I mean that. Unless you wish to continue floating way out beyond the buoy's with pinholes in your floaties while your older brother has his back turned away from the beach making sand castles....with an evil smirk.Waiting on the inevitable bloop-bloop-bloop.

I absolutely thought Women of Color was a brilliant film that documented what was once an uncharted and sort of...forbidden area of technology reserved only for brainiacs. I've been there.
"Stay away, you don't know what you're doing".
"You can look, but don't ever touch".
Well. Looking. And touching. Sometimes behind other's backs. It can teach a lot. Especially when the people who built the darned contraption start asking you....."How did you do it?".
So feel very confident that I don't know a snippet of machine level programming. It spins my head.
Registers, stacks, Boolean logic. You can have that crap. And the soap box that goes with it when touting your skills.
I think my heyday was in school when I was doing poorly in Algebra. A blackboard of formulas and equations and squiggles and crap. I wanted to learn. I guess I just suck at math.
The instructor kept me after school. He volunteered and asked me to stay. It was HIS mission.
He took numbers and all of the crap and turned it into literal Apples, Oranges, Horses, and Ducks.
Gave me real life scenarios to relate to. Not chalk on a board or ink on paper.
It was a revelation that changed me a great deal. Opened up a capability to tear down complicated "stuff" and granulate it.
Haha. I didn't pass with A's. But I did pass his class. And NEVER took algebra again.

Hey. Them floaties are are gettin' a might flabby there, buddy. Better start paddlin' towards shore, young man.
The sun's going down. And the sharks are hungry.

You know what? You're a cool dude. I do respect you a lot.
I wouldn't vote for ya'. That would be political. Nor put a quarter in the passing hat. That would be religious.

But do you have the Wombat refrigerator magnet for Datatrieve?

arlo said:

3 bases covered......

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Yet in all that bloviation, you haven't effectively defended your claim.

Imagine what the world might be like if the Amiga or the Be computers had the leverage of Microsoft behind them.