722 DVR TV2

[avbydesign]

I'm new here so please be understanding.

I'm using the DishNetwork VIP 722 DVR

We are trying to figure a way to make side 2 or TV2 IR control, not RF.

I want to stick and emmitter on the front and use side 2 or TV2 for my audio source in my Whole House Audio System.

There has to be a way to do this.

Mike

 

[STL]

Do a search; there are LOTS of threads on this. In short it is not possible out of the box (which is completely idiotic), but with some additional hardware from DISH -- that just came out -- you may be able to do it..

 

[harshness]

We are trying to figure a way to make side 2 or TV2 IR control, not RF.

...
There has to be a way to do this.

There is a way, but it isn't available yet. It was announced at the Team Summit and more recently on the Technical Chat for delivery this summer. Until you get one of those, there's no way to have independent TV2 control via IR.

 

[CowboyDren]

You can do two UHFs, though.

 

[avbydesign]

This is really a bummer.

Mike

 

[TheKrell]

This is really a bummer.

Welcome --> Mike!

Indeed it is a bummer. I have the 722 as well, and a Hava Platinum (like a Slingbox Solo) that I would love to plug into TV2, but cannot for the same reason. Incidentally, there is an even bigger bummer wrt the 722, and that is TV2 can record HD, but cannot output HD. Many many many of us wish they would add some form of HD output to TV2, but alas that is not even possible on the upcoming 922.

Some folks (such as me) think the UHF-only TV2 control is a hardware limitation, while others (such as stl) think it's fixable in firmware. (My comment to stl is this: just because you or I would have designed the hardware to handle IR on both inputs, does not mean that Dish engineers see things the same way.) Anyhow, the adapter, called a "TV2 IR Converter", was just announced earlier in the week. It sounded to me like the earliest availability was going to be on Sling's website. We shall see. Probable cost: $30.

 

[Jim5506]

Dish just introduced an IR to UHF converter for TV2.

Should be out next month.

 

[STL]

Some folks (such as me) think the UHF-only TV2 control is a hardware limitation, while others (such as stl) think it's fixable in firmware. (My comment to stl is this: just because you or I would have designed the hardware to handle IR on both inputs, does not mean that Dish engineers see things the same way.)

I have a fairly good grasp of IR; I built my own IR distribution system (from scratch). If the 722 can already "see" IR commands -- which it can for TV1 -- then the hardware is entirely capable of controlling TV2 via IR with just a software change. Since the TV1 remote is addressable (with settings between 1 and 16) then 722 software could be changed so address 16 (which is currently for TV1 control) could be for TV2 control instead. It would take away one of the address codes for TV1, but that most likely wouldn't affect 99.99999% of their customers.

 

[STL]

Indeed it is a bummer. I have the 722 as well, and a Hava Platinum (like a Slingbox Solo) that I would love to plug into TV2, but cannot for the same reason. Incidentally, there is an even bigger bummer wrt the 722, and that is TV2 can record HD, but cannot output HD. Many many many of us wish they would add some form of HD output to TV2, but alas that is not even possible on the upcoming 922.

I guess I don't see that as much of an issue since you can record something on TV2 and watch it on TV1. As long as you don't need to watch two different HD programs at the same time, then just get a powered HDMI (or component) splitter and run the TV1 output to multiple TVs. Actually, if you run component to one set and HDMI to the other then you won't even need the splitter. I have TV1 on my 722 running to three different HDTVs.

 

[n0qcu]

Since the TV1 remote is addressable (with settings between 1 and 16)

You should at least give accurate info! The remote addresses are 1 to 31.

 

[STL]

You should at least give accurate info! The remote addresses are 1 to 31.

Evidently I didn't recall correctly, but that larger range of addresses only helps my argument (for making one for TV2 control).

 

[TheKrell]

If the 722 can already "see" IR commands -- which it can for TV1 -- then the hardware is entirely capable of controlling TV2 via IR with just a software change.

Well, you can keep saying that until hell freezes over, but that doesn't make it true. As n0qcu pointed out, we are not lacking in address space, especially when one includes the upper 15 addresses known only to Dish engineers and Satelliteguys forum readers. And I have no doubt of your EE bona fides. (I'm a nuclear physicist myself.) And I am sure that you and I, were we to design a satellite receiver, would have kept our options open just because it's best practice and the obvious thing to do.

But when you think about engineering a receiver that will go into mass production, rather tiny corners can be cut which results in the savings of millions of $s to your employer down the road. Let's take a more obvious example of the "right" thing to do: the dual-tuner dual-output HD receiver. Now, with Dish going all mpeg-4 for their HD programming, obviously there must be one VLSI that decompresses and possibly decrypts (among other potential functions) both mpeg-2 SD and mpeg-4 SD and HD data streams. (Edit: Argh! Another case not considered. It has to decompress both mpeg-2 SD and mpeg-2 HD from the OTA tuner, as well as mpeg-4 SD (from EA and mpeg-4 HD from everywhere.) You and I would both prefer to put two of these things into a dual-tuner receiver. How much can they cost, anyway? (I have no idea of course!)

Now Dish could put in two of these hummers, just as we might like. But that is probably more costly than putting in one mpeg-2/mpeg-4 HD chip and a different mpeg-2/mpeg-4 SD chip. (The same argument applies even if they have some bizarre integrated chipset that does the output from both tuners in one chip, or includes the video RAMDAC function on the same chip.) Note that you can't save as many dollars as I thought at first, without thinking first. That's because both outputs have to decode both mpeg-2 and mpeg-4 SD and HD. But one of them (for the TV2 output) never has to deal with the high-bandwidth DAC needed for HD output. The design engineer probably saved a few dollars/receiver.

How much can you save if you leave out the ability to control some of these modules via IR? I have no idea, but I imagine if you saved a single transistor costing one thin dime, you might have done it. Of course the discrete transistor might have cost only one dime, but it requires placement through 3 holes, drilling the 3 holes, and soldering the leads to the PCB. $1? Again I have no idea.

 

[STL]

The only way I can see the 722 not having the capability to control TV2 via IR is that if the code and TV1 and TV2 are running on two separate processors that are not connected. For the very cost cutting measures you mentioned, that chances of that are zero. Besides, can you not control TV2 via IR when the rec'r in in Single (instead of Dual) mode? I have read that in a couple places but never actually tried it. If that is true then it proves it is indeed entirely possible to control TV2 (in Dual mode) via IR with only a software change.

 

[TheKrell]

Besides, can you not control TV2 via IR when the rec'r in in Single (instead of Dual) mode? I have read that in a couple places but never actually tried it. If that is true then it proves it is indeed entirely possible to control TV2 (in Dual mode) via IR with only a software change.

It proves no such thing. There is no straight line between initial concept and engineering reality, particularly in a box as complicated as a dual-tuner HD DVR.

The trouble with your analyses is that it's all theoretical, and limited by your imagination. (To be fair, so is mine! But apparently I have a wilder imagination.) So why don't you (or I) take the cover off your (or my) 722, pull the EMI shields off all the tuners, decompressors, and whatnot, and see what general modules we are dealing with?

I imagine there is not one single processor controlling everything, but numerous VLSI modules, e.g. 2 tuners, 2 decompressors, and Dish only knows what else, with some embedded controllers in one or more of the bigger signal-processor modules. Most DVD and media players I have seen use a single VLSI decryption and decompression module with embedded ARM MPU, RAMDACs, and even IR processor sections. Depending upon how they are cross-coupled, all manner of strange feature sets are possible.

 

[Pepper]

the IR receiver is an input device to dishlinux. It receives any IR pointed at it, from any of the 31 possible remote codes. It's the software that's ignoring everything except for the one specific code assigned to TV1. Having it ignore one less code is the software change we've talked about, and it should be a trivial matter. The heavy work of ignoring 30 codes, plus any other IR device you might have a remote for, has already been done.

 

[TheKrell]

and it should be a trivial matter.

Yes, everybody here agrees that it should be a trivial software matter, IF it is possible at all. Unless Dish is seriously perverse, it's just not possible without the TV2 IR converter.

N.B. Dish does not need to waste time and effort on an external hardware solution if their sole purpose is to soak us for more money. All they do is charge an enabling fee, and we all meekly pay it.

 

[harshness]

Anyone who has seen pictures of the module knows that it isn't a simple matter of software to do what Echostar engineers have done.

It kind of looks like the IR signal gets modulated and injected into one of the receiver inputs.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=37393&d=1241833572

 

[STL]

It is true the device they will be selling is doing more than what I (and most users) need done for TV2. We only need for the 722 unit's current IR eye to respond to some IR signals to control TV2 instead of TV1 -- and that could be done with a fairly easy software change.