advice wanted - point dishes faster!

[1blink]

Hey guys, just joined the forum although I've peeked in now and then over the years.

I've recently added FTA installation (specifically for the customer to have access to 3ABN adventist channels) to my existing work load of custom home theater and dish network instals.

I've done 2 so far, and likely all jobs will have the same setup:

pointing at G-19
dish: GEOSATpro 90cm(36inch)
lnb: Geosatpro SL1 bullet
receiver: GEOSATPro DSR200c

I have a good bit of knowledge that carried over, but one thing seems to be the biggest hurdle for me, after doing just 2 instals:

It takes me an hour to find the G-19 satellite. I'm used to pointing at the DishNetwork birds, and clearly they are much easier to find. I need to cut down the time involved in finding FTA satellites dramatically.

My guess is that the best way to do this would be with a new meter. I currently own:
an old Channelmaster dinosaur, a Satbuddy1, and an AccutracIII+. None of these give me an ID on what bird I have pointed.

What is the best meter to aid in a fast, accurate point on a dish? (Super Sat, Birdog...) I'm not doing this as a hobby, it's supplemental income. If it takes me 2 hours to find a sat, i'm not making much $ for my time. If there is a tie between good meters, keep in mind that I also point dishnetwork dishes, troubleshoot cabling in homes, etc., and in the future I may want to use it for any other kind of sat pointing as I expand my knowledge and what I can offer customers.

Any tips or suggestions are welcome.

 

[SatelliteAV]

We have supported thousands of installers over the years on FSS installs and have a good idea of meters that installers have sucess.

SatBuddy is a great meter and highly recommend. It also contains a Glorystar dataset with switch control. We have very few issues on installs using the SatBuddy!

Not to many good things to say about Birdogs for FSS satellites. They work well for Dish Network. Most installers are not aware of the BER setting that must be changed for FSS and often arrive without the proper datasets. Not auggesting that Birdogs are bad, but it is becoming "old school" when compared to the features on new meters like the SatBuddy.

 

[kingofku]

Or a good old fashioned spectrum analyzer, like an Avcom PSA-37D. That'll cut your seek time to less than 5 minutes once you recognize the spectral signature of the Gal 19 bird or any other satellite you want to dial in.

I have both a Sat Buddy and an Avcom and I'll take my Avcom anyday.

 

[drboyddrboyd]

Buy a used Birdog off Craigslist. Load it up with the desired sat and maybe a few more nearby before you leave the house.

I'm not a professional installer, but the Birdog sure made my life easy aiming a motor dish.

(Hint: Search for "bird dog" as well as "birdog")

 

[rv1pop]

I cheat...

I have a level post on my wall that I use to check and set satellite dishes before I take them out to set up. I lock down the elevation. When I get to the install, I install and level the new post, drop the dish on it and tune for the known signal. Five to 15 seconds average locate time. I use the receiver for the meter. It helps to have the receiver set up in advance, and I bring my own TV with me.

Of course, I learned this on the RV Road for my own system, so I have close to 100 (or more) successful installs.

POP

PS: (or edit) I have a variety of dishes mounted to the wall so I copy the slope of the LNB support arm from the proper dish to the new one, on the shed, then aim, set the skew, so when I get to the customers place it goes quicker. The look on a pizza installers face at a home show as I fastened my post to a fence post and squared it up was interesting, until I placed the dish on the post and got immediate signal. Then that look was worth all the preperation! I knew who he was and that he was watching, so when I had the pole in place, I hooked up the cables, turned on the receiver and tv got to the search menu with the beeps, then picked up the dish and set it on, swinging to azmeth as it dropped to position! WILD>

 

[Lak7]

Bring along your favorite receiver, I find using as much "familiar equipment" as possible speeds things along.

 

[Wescopc]

I have used a TV/Receiver for many installs, now I have a Super Buddy it is the answer!

When I am on a dish that I am not acquainted with, I place the dish to the approximate elevation, swing it left and right until I see a blip on the signal. I then ask the SB to identify the satellite I am on. It might say 95W. I then look at the elevation that 95 is for the Zip code I am at (all programmed within the SB meter) see how much I need to move my elevation up/down change my elevation by that amount - and boom there's 97W!
Bob

PS I like to setup my dishes at my shop (like RV1Pop does) I have found that the side arms that support the LNB often "pull" the dish out of shape when they are attached. I elongate the holes on both ends such that they are slots rather then a tight hole. I did one this afternoon made 10 points difference on the quality.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Hey guys, just joined the forum although I've peeked in now and then over the years.

I've recently added FTA installation (specifically for the customer to have access to 3ABN adventist channels) to my existing work load of custom home theater and dish network instals.

I've done 2 so far, and likely all jobs will have the same setup:

pointing at G-19
dish: GEOSATpro 90cm(36inch)
lnb: Geosatpro SL1 bullet
receiver: GEOSATPro DSR200c

I have a good bit of knowledge that carried over, but one thing seems to be the biggest hurdle for me, after doing just 2 instals:

It takes me an hour to find the G-19 satellite. I'm used to pointing at the DishNetwork birds, and clearly they are much easier to find. I need to cut down the time involved in finding FTA satellites dramatically.

My guess is that the best way to do this would be with a new meter. I currently own:
an old Channelmaster dinosaur, a Satbuddy1, and an AccutracIII+. None of these give me an ID on what bird I have pointed.

What is the best meter to aid in a fast, accurate point on a dish? (Super Sat, Birdog...) I'm not doing this as a hobby, it's supplemental income. If it takes me 2 hours to find a sat, i'm not making much $ for my time. If there is a tie between good meters, keep in mind that I also point dishnetwork dishes, troubleshoot cabling in homes, etc., and in the future I may want to use it for any other kind of sat pointing as I expand my knowledge and what I can offer customers.

Any tips or suggestions are welcome.

1Blink,

To give you my own personal recommendations, I have to inform you that I use several different strategies and equipment.

First of all, for my local area, I have developed a fairly "keen" sense of direction as to where the satellites are positioned in the sky. I am not all that great in getting around the city streets of another town or city, but living here in one general area all my life, it isn't too difficult to learn the sky.

Some people are really gifted with this advantage. You sort of get accustomed to where the satellite shoudl be in the sky after setting up many dishes for a few particular (satellites) in the same general area. It eventually becomes a little like knowing how to mow your own backyard. You are familiar with where the old fencepost is, the tree branch that always hangs in your eyes, the piece of concrete that catches your lawnmower blade along the sidewalk, etc.

This is stuff that you learn by simply doing it over and over again. You really cannot explain it to someone else. You simply have the "map" stored in your own mind through repetition. So this is one tool.

I also use another tool, the Applied Instrument's Super Buddy meter. It's the best meter out there for doing everything! It is expensive by most FTA hobbyist's standards, but it is also the very top of the line. I wouldn't do without it, but most people don't require it. For a person who would install a dish or two a year for a good friend, a brother or a cousin with a price tag of a steak and a few beers or a barter for some automotive repairs, this meter is out of your league, it isn't required, it is overkill. In these cases, it is just a nice toy that you can share the advantages with. For the general FTA hobbyist, it is truly just a luxurious "TOY". But, don't get me wrong on this evaluation, for ~$675, even a FTA hobbyist can justify this meter if they are really into the hobby. It depends upon your personal budget.

I referred to this meter (the SuperBuddy) as a toy, but it is absolutely NOT a toy. It is an immaculate piece of test equipment and it is designed to do MUCH more than help you align a FTA satellite dish. You can use it to set up satellite internet systems, check distribution systems and other things as well.

The next strategy and equipment for FTA installations that I will recommend is so simple, and now so very inexpensive (and I apologize for saying it over and over again) is the Coolsat 5000 / 6000 FTA reciever itself. It is a meter in itself (at least for standard DVBS FTA signals). Yes, it won't do HD or DVB-S2 or 4:2:2 signals and the like, but for the standard def signals that are up there, they work GREAT! For an investment of $35 to $50 for the receiver, coupled with a small portable TV and a few short cables, you can do about anything with them!

I use each of these strategies myself, one or the other or a combination, depending upon the particular circumstances. I will let you decide for yourself what you want to utilize and how you want to go about it all, but I would guarantee all these particular options to anyone.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

I have used a TV/Receiver for many installs, now I have a Super Buddy it is the answer!

When I am on a dish that I am not acquainted with, I place the dish to the approximate elevation, swing it left and right until I see a blip on the signal. I then ask the SB to identify the satellite I am on. It might say 95W. I then look at the elevation that 95 is for the Zip code I am at (all programmed within the SB meter) see how much I need to move my elevation up/down change my elevation by that amount - and boom there's 97W!
Bob

PS I like to setup my dishes at my shop (like RV1Pop does) I have found that the side arms that support the LNB often "pull" the dish out of shape when they are attached. I elongate the holes on both ends such that they are slots rater then a tight hole. I did on this afternoon made 10 points difference on the quality.

Bob,

Very "cool" that you have a SuperBuddy, too! See my previous post regarding my comments of this meter and let me know if you agree with what I am saying. If you have other notions to discuss about that meter, send me a PM, I have owned mine for about 5 years or more and just LOVE it! Not to mention the support and other great information that I derive from Applied Instruments!

RADAR

RADAR

 

[updatelee]

I used to have a birddog when I did Expressvu installs and had a Satlook NIT for Explornet installs. once I got out of those I sold Birdog and kept the Satlook. Nothing beats a spectrum analyzer imo. Now just because its sold as a SA doesnt mean it is one, the Trimax imo is usless as anything but a toy when it comes to SA's

you can find used satlook on kijiji and ebay once in awhile, I got mine sold as-is broken for $300 and put around $50 into it to fix it.

there are lots of tips and tricks already mentioned here to speed up installs, but you still need the right tools for the job.

Now that im not doing installs commercially anymore I would consider selling the satlook... but only to buy a bench SA like a HP I couldnt live without the SA anymore.

 

[1blink]

Much thanks for all the input. I'm leaning towards the Super Sat for a few reasons...I can get one fast, I can get one new for under $550, and I'm pretty sure it'll do exactly what I need it to for all my dish aiming needs, be it FTA, Dishnetwork or Direct.

Need to order the meter soon...I've got more service calls booking in to fix up some sloppy work done by the former area FTA installer for 3ABN setups. I should be grateful for his bad workmanship. Seeing his work, I felt compelled to replace him in my area. I've seen a lot of bad work over the years, and his is right up there with the worst of them. A few before and after photos on 2 re-instals was all it took to convince the powers that be.

The spectrum analyzer interests me, but I've never seen one before and it's unfamiliar territory. The price tags on new ones are prohibitive too. For those of you that like them over regular meters, do you use them for lots of orbitals, or just a few familiar ones? Hobby use or professional? Why do you like it better than a regular meter? Are you just comparing the graph it shows with known graphs from the satellite you are hunting? Is it good enough for positive ID before going to the receiver? Oh, and...Can it simultaneously show signal off 2 or more birds on LNB's like the DPPtwin, 1000.2, 1000.4, and Slimline Ka/Ku? Am I correct in guessing that a SA would not output enough power to get a good read on these LNB's without powering from a receiver first?

 

[Pepper]

Interesting reading. I spent 1.5 hours on the roof of a double-wide today trying to do one of these jobs, consistently got nothing. I imagine when I return it will be with my portable TV, favorite receiver and remote control. The small number of these jobs that I do won't pay for one of those fancy meters.

 

[Tron]

A Battery operated LCD monitor with video input, such as a portable DVD player, and a receiver.

 

[Wescopc]

Bob,

Very "cool" that you have a SuperBuddy, too! See my previous post regarding my comments of this meter and let me know if you agree with what I am saying. If you have other notions to discuss about that meter, send me a PM, I have owned mine for about 5 years or more and just LOVE it! Not to mention the support and other great information that I derive from Applied Instruments!

RADAR

RADAR

I agree with what you have said, I did over 125 re-points last month, moving Glorystar folks from AMC4 to G19. I bought mine used from a firm that closed upon its owners death. The meter worked ONE day! I called Scott at Applied Instruments they covered the repair under warranty! This has been my best investment for satellite work. One can often find them used for $400 or less on Craigs list or ebay.
Bob

 

[1blink]

I borrowed a Supersat today for an Adventsat service call (G-19). Very happy, ordering one tomorrow. Had sat locked in 10 seconds, peaked in under 5 minutes.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I agree with what you have said, I did over 125 re-points last month, moving Glorystar folks from AMC4 to G19. I bought mine used from a firm that closed upon its owners death. The meter worked ONE day! I called Scott at Applied Instruments they covered the repair under warranty! This has been my best investment for satellite work. One can often find them used for $400 or less on Craigs list or ebay.
Bob

Bob,

You know, it is absolutely amazing to me how great the customer support from Applied Instruments is! They are fantastic and even more! At one time, I attempted to update my firmware and something went awry. I called them up and was able to speak directly to both Tom and Scott during the troubleshooting process... One on one discussions to evaluate the situation. They nailed down the problem right off and it wasn't anything that I could fix myself, so they just sent me a brand new meter with all the software and firmware updates installed. I didn't even have to send my meter back to them until I received the replacement. They sent this replacement directly out to me, at no charge, and just told me to wait until the new one arrived and send the old one back in the same box, and they covered the shipping charges as well. I actually felt guilty of something, it almost seemed like I was taking advantage of THEM!

I was so amazed! You don't get this kind of support from ANYONE anymore, I was very proud to be an owner of one of their products after that experience and I am continually happy with my SuperBuddy meter and I will always be very grateful of their support. These guys are GREAT! If you need a meter, a signal analyzer or something along this line, please look at what Applied Instruments has to offer. You will absolutely be thrilled with their equipment!

They named the meter perfectly, you know... SuperBuddy! It really IS a Super Buddy!

RADAR

 

[bassist]

How about suggesting a motor?

If you get more of these calls, you might consider selling & installing an upgrade, namely one of the H to H motors.

1st, there is more religious programming available along with 'family' entertainment (RTV & PBS).

2nd, it is much easier to install a motor & use it to locate your sats than it is to "hand-aim" a 30"+ dish at linear birds. (I use a Coolsat 4000 + an old 5" B&W TV as my 'signal meter' and I've now set up a motorized system 3x's and the last time it took me less than 15 minutes to get the dish aimed & pretty close to peaked-out.)

 

[Wescopc]

I would not suggest a motor to any one that doesn't like to tinker. I will not install a motor for anyone that would expect me to support it as part of my install fee. Motors are a hobbyist item at best. Try supporting a DVR capable receiver - unless the owner is a geeky type you will lose money almost every time. Motors are even more touchy than DVR's with plug in hard drives.
Bob

 

[SatelliteAV]

I fully agree with Bob. Motorized systems are not for the casual viewer.

I would never consider installing a motor in a customer's home unless they are a hobbyist who fully understands how to operate and maintain their own system. Imagine trying to educate and then provide telephone support for a motorized system!

Multiple threads in excess of 100 posts in this forum on a single motor installation and operation speak volumes on the customer friendliness of motorized dishes!

 

[updatelee]

here are two video's i took with my SA showing a good lnb and a cheap faulty design lnb. You can visually see the difference immediately with the SA, this wouldnt be obvious at first on a conventional meter.

what the video is showing is how on an lnb with two outputs, lets call them port A and port B, how switching the voltage 13v/18v on port B effects the signal on port A

Invacom QPH-031
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EniLEg-4Y4]YouTube - good lnb, invacom qph-031[/ame]

ROC brand ebay junk
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAPhAaqAAzM]YouTube - cheap lnb[/ame]

SA's have many advantages over conventional meters beyond aiming dish's.