Oops, my bad. You are correct.
So it should be:
* $6 for the first DVR
* $3 for each additional DVR
So DISHnet's cheaper if you only have 1 DVR, but more expensive with multiple.
Appeals Court Finds Echostar in Contempt in TIVO Case
- Thread starter rad
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 407
- Views 49K
Oops, my bad. You are correct.
So it should be:
* $6 for the first DVR
* $3 for each additional DVR
So DISHnet's cheaper if you only have 1 DVR, but more expensive with multiple.
For those of you who worry about your VIPS, The progression of this into the future is fairly easy to chart.
First, at any point, Dish has the choice to settle with TiVO. If they do, they will have to deal with a smallish charge per receiver per month going forward until 2018. It is not in TiVo's interest to make that exhorbitant or else it will discourage people from using DVRs, which would reduce revenue.
Anyway, Dish always has the choice to settle at any point in the following process.
But we all know that's not going to happen. I don't know why, but somewhere somehow this has gotten personal.
The first thing DISH has done is to ask for an Appeal to the full appeals court. This will likely take months to decide. All the while the stay of the order is in force.
If that is denied, Dish can appeal to the Supreme Court. More months pass with the stay still in place.
OVER THE COURSE OF THE APPEALS, the number of offending DVRs will continue to drop because people like me will replace them in the natural order of things (I just replaced a 508 with a 612).
Dish could decide to accelerate this through promotion (Mine was free).
But Let's assume that Dish Eventually loses.
Then they would have 30-days to pay up and disable the old DVRs. At that point, Dish would most likely replace all the offending DVRs as part of an all-out switch to MPEG4.
WE ARE PROBABLY AT LEAST SIX MONTHS AWAY FROM THIS POINT. More likely a year. And nothing has been done about the VIPs.
Then the ball would be in TiVO's court. Do they try to include the ViPs? I am not a lawyer but I write software and have designed hardware so I am aware of patent issues. And I know someone who has taken Tivos and Dish DVRs (old and VIP) apart to examine what they do.
The problem Tivo faces is that the VIPs were not included early enough in the process so I don't think you could just "tack on" the VIPs without a whole separate hearing process.
Let's say TiVO takes the DISH money and follows this path. This Hearing would be long and convoluted. Because the VIPs are so much more complicated and do so much more than the old DVRs, examining and documenting how they work in order to explain it to a judge or even an expert special master would take many months, and that would be before the hearing even starts. Discovery could take a year.
A hearing could last more than a month.
Then you are looking at six months to come up with a decision (maybe longer).
IF WE FOLLOWED THIS PATH, IF we get a decision that the VIPs infringe, it might not be until 2012 or 2013. And this kind of decision would be appealable.
The last issue with the hearing is that one has to remember that the VIPs were designed AFTER TiVO filed suit. This means that unless the engineers were totally incompetent, they had to design a back-door way to make the thing work in the event that Tivo prevailed in the suit.
So in the end, we are a very long way from having the VIPs turned off. They will be replaced by something else first.
First, at any point, Dish has the choice to settle with TiVO. If they do, they will have to deal with a smallish charge per receiver per month going forward until 2018. It is not in TiVo's interest to make that exhorbitant or else it will discourage people from using DVRs, which would reduce revenue.
Anyway, Dish always has the choice to settle at any point in the following process.
But we all know that's not going to happen. I don't know why, but somewhere somehow this has gotten personal.
The first thing DISH has done is to ask for an Appeal to the full appeals court. This will likely take months to decide. All the while the stay of the order is in force.
If that is denied, Dish can appeal to the Supreme Court. More months pass with the stay still in place.
OVER THE COURSE OF THE APPEALS, the number of offending DVRs will continue to drop because people like me will replace them in the natural order of things (I just replaced a 508 with a 612).
Dish could decide to accelerate this through promotion (Mine was free).
But Let's assume that Dish Eventually loses.
Then they would have 30-days to pay up and disable the old DVRs. At that point, Dish would most likely replace all the offending DVRs as part of an all-out switch to MPEG4.
WE ARE PROBABLY AT LEAST SIX MONTHS AWAY FROM THIS POINT. More likely a year. And nothing has been done about the VIPs.
Then the ball would be in TiVO's court. Do they try to include the ViPs? I am not a lawyer but I write software and have designed hardware so I am aware of patent issues. And I know someone who has taken Tivos and Dish DVRs (old and VIP) apart to examine what they do.
The problem Tivo faces is that the VIPs were not included early enough in the process so I don't think you could just "tack on" the VIPs without a whole separate hearing process.
Let's say TiVO takes the DISH money and follows this path. This Hearing would be long and convoluted. Because the VIPs are so much more complicated and do so much more than the old DVRs, examining and documenting how they work in order to explain it to a judge or even an expert special master would take many months, and that would be before the hearing even starts. Discovery could take a year.
A hearing could last more than a month.
Then you are looking at six months to come up with a decision (maybe longer).
IF WE FOLLOWED THIS PATH, IF we get a decision that the VIPs infringe, it might not be until 2012 or 2013. And this kind of decision would be appealable.
The last issue with the hearing is that one has to remember that the VIPs were designed AFTER TiVO filed suit. This means that unless the engineers were totally incompetent, they had to design a back-door way to make the thing work in the event that Tivo prevailed in the suit.
So in the end, we are a very long way from having the VIPs turned off. They will be replaced by something else first.
Not arguing the hardware/software thing. Others seem to think that TIVO can get to the VIPs through the colorful difference clause in the contempt phase because it appears the software is the same. I am saying that it is very unlikely that TIVO can get to the VIPs through the contempt phase vice having to go to another trial as 1) They already tried and were shot down as you stated and 2) Rader's dissent was more than just a discussion on the merits it was also a thinly veiled warning to Folsom on how to proceed.
If TiVo could make their units work with satellite..... I might sign up!
Or.... would that infringe on Echostar..... hmmmmmm
Or.... would that infringe on Echostar..... hmmmmmm
Yea I use a 522 every day for SD stuff and the back room. HD is not needed and i even at times record SD on the 622 because I just don't want to waste 7x the HD space for a show that I won't be watching on a HDTV.
Now to find me a 722 to replace the 522 I suppose
Now to find me a 722 to replace the 522 I suppose
Dont worry about it...
Let DISH worry about it and if they need to replace any receivers let them pay for it.
I think you've made it too simplistic:Albie2 said:
1) TiVo was not allowed to attach the ViP 622/722 to the original trial in April 2006, because the trial was over. That leaves TiVo to try and attach colorable difference to those...
2) There is now "case law" in hand that colorable difference has been evaluted between the522/625 and the 501/508/510 series using the old and the new software. That case law can simply be applied to the ViP series...
So that would require TiVo to file a contempt motion for sales of infringing DVR's merely colorably different than those found within the injunction. That cannot happen until the injunction is in full force and effect, and that won't happen until:
Not necessarily months...flyingsquirrel said:
It will only be much more than three months if DISH/SATS is able to convice the Court of Appeals to complete an en banc review or if the Supreme Court would review an appeal. Otherwise it won't take much longer than about three or four months.flyingsquirrel said:
And it isn't necessarily a strain to believe that DISH would have a difficult time to swap-out receivers for ViP receivers in that time period.
Dont worry about it...
Let DISH worry about it and if they need to replace any receivers let them pay for it.
Thats what I will do....let Dish replace my 625 (which had worked flawlessly till now)....But...in PR they only give 622....which is prone to failures.
This may be a bit simplistic but it seems Charlie has two options to consider, either one will cost him big money.
1. Replace all offending DVR's
2. Buy TIVO. (assuming he can)
1. Replace all offending DVR's
2. Buy TIVO. (assuming he can)
Yea, I guess just wait and see. Hell I have to repoint to 129 OR get on the EA pretty soon due to the 61.5 "new" HD, or lack of it.
I think it will be very difficult for TIVO to convince Judge Folsom that the VIPs are only colorfully different from the 522/625 unless they use the exact same code.
Yes and this was also noted in one of the judges rulings yesterday.
TIVO would need to start from scratch on those and we know it would take years to even get into the courts.
If I were Charlie, I would just work with TIVO now, its best for everyone.
That price will probably be the DVR fee on the new HD DirecTivo and your right for DirecTV HD subscribers that sounds fair.
I would just like to point out that Judge Rader provided a dissenting opinion which, for lack of a better term, is nothing more than a wrong opinion since it goes against the majority of the appellate court as well as Judge Folsom (3-1). I fully expect Tivo to enjoin the ViP Series DVRs and request Judge Folsom rule they are only colorably different from other infringing models. As noted by the court, Judge Folsom is somewhat of an expert on these matters...no need to go through another 5-year fiasco.
Regardless, E* can stop all this nonsense by signing a licening agreement with Tivo. I give E* credit for challenging this matter in the courts, but they are "stuck on stupid" and shoud have signed an agreement back in 2008. Charlie is to blame if any DVRs are disabled or they wind-up paying a fortune to Tivo.
<OT>I think the main reason people are mad is the fees are the same for leased boxes as they are for owned boxes.</OT>
Dish is going to have to be very careful in making any increases in what subscribers pay...with the "Why pay more?" campaign going strong and the courts squashing Direct's objection to that campaign. Now with this TiVo victory, any increases by Dish will not only look bad but every competitor will be jumping up & down about how Dish is passing on the cost of the lawsuit to their subscribers.
Wow! from cheers to jeers in just a little over a week!
Ghpr13
Wow! from cheers to jeers in just a little over a week!
Ghpr13
TiVo Prevails in Patent Rights Case Against Dish
All,
I posted major media updates on this topic yesterday, they were removed because of a site violation over posting copyrighted materials (Even though it is well established to be lawful to do so as long as you provide attribution (i.e. a URL). All you have to do is look at media reprinting stories from other sources, books with attribution in end notes, etc., but I digress.) In any case, not understanding they had been removed for a site rule violation I reposted them a little while ago, then I found the "warning" to me over posting copyrighted material (sent hours after my post was removed so I overlooked it), then circled back here to remove the "offending" article language I had just reposted and see a mod or someone has already done it for me. Whew, I hope that is clear as mud. In any case, thanks to whomever I need to thank. The links are now:
New York Times - TiVo Prevails in Patent Rights Case Against Dish
Wall Street Journal - TiVo Shares Surge on Court Ruling
Bloomberg - TiVo Wins Court Ruling Against Dish, EchoStar (Update4)
The gist of the matter is that TiVo got a complete win. The ruling by 2-1 in the appellate review was a 100% validation of their complaint. Yes, one of the judges dissented in D*/E*'s direction and yes D*/E* did state they are filing for an en banc review (pretty standard fare when you lose if you have the money to continue to pursue matters); I was looking to get some feedback.
My experience last fall when I was looking into this matter lead me to conclude there have been a lot of pseudo-lawyer types posting all over the Internet telling people this litigation was bologna and telling people this litigation was going nowhere. In spite of these prognostications it does look like it is going somewhere. Literally tens of thousands of en banc petitions are filed with just the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals each year. Few are granted and even fewer result in the court overturning a finding. Having said that, I am providing these news media links and looking for anybody that might like to handicap the implications for us if they would.
Thanks,
Phil
All,
I posted major media updates on this topic yesterday, they were removed because of a site violation over posting copyrighted materials (Even though it is well established to be lawful to do so as long as you provide attribution (i.e. a URL). All you have to do is look at media reprinting stories from other sources, books with attribution in end notes, etc., but I digress.) In any case, not understanding they had been removed for a site rule violation I reposted them a little while ago, then I found the "warning" to me over posting copyrighted material (sent hours after my post was removed so I overlooked it), then circled back here to remove the "offending" article language I had just reposted and see a mod or someone has already done it for me. Whew, I hope that is clear as mud. In any case, thanks to whomever I need to thank. The links are now:
New York Times - TiVo Prevails in Patent Rights Case Against Dish
Wall Street Journal - TiVo Shares Surge on Court Ruling
Bloomberg - TiVo Wins Court Ruling Against Dish, EchoStar (Update4)
The gist of the matter is that TiVo got a complete win. The ruling by 2-1 in the appellate review was a 100% validation of their complaint. Yes, one of the judges dissented in D*/E*'s direction and yes D*/E* did state they are filing for an en banc review (pretty standard fare when you lose if you have the money to continue to pursue matters); I was looking to get some feedback.
My experience last fall when I was looking into this matter lead me to conclude there have been a lot of pseudo-lawyer types posting all over the Internet telling people this litigation was bologna and telling people this litigation was going nowhere. In spite of these prognostications it does look like it is going somewhere. Literally tens of thousands of en banc petitions are filed with just the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals each year. Few are granted and even fewer result in the court overturning a finding. Having said that, I am providing these news media links and looking for anybody that might like to handicap the implications for us if they would.
Thanks,
Phil
Last edited:
Iceberg,
Yes, I guess I must have. I looked and saw a pinned thread that was locked, I saw this thread and provided the media pieces; if you would like to provide the link to that thread here I would appreciate it. If the threads should be merged, great.
Thanks,
Phil
Update: OK, threads have been merged and now I can see this thing is being discussed...actively. LOL I really scratched my head last fall, the pseudo-lawyers were saying TiVo had no case, but my read of it was that they did have a case. Literally tens of thousands of petitions for en banc review are filed in the 5th Circuit each year, en banc review is rarely granted and of those that are granted even a smaller fraction of rulings are overturned. Clearly the prognosticators were completely wrong, but since one judge dissented we can't just dismiss their input out of hand. Thanks for merging the thread and now I need to do some additional reading!
Phil
Yes, I guess I must have.
I looked and saw a pinned thread that was locked, I saw this thread and provided the media pieces; if you would like to provide the link to that thread here I would appreciate it. If the threads should be merged, great. Thanks,
Phil
Update: OK, threads have been merged and now I can see this thing is being discussed...actively. LOL I really scratched my head last fall, the pseudo-lawyers were saying TiVo had no case, but my read of it was that they did have a case. Literally tens of thousands of petitions for en banc review are filed in the 5th Circuit each year, en banc review is rarely granted and of those that are granted even a smaller fraction of rulings are overturned. Clearly the prognosticators were completely wrong, but since one judge dissented we can't just dismiss their input out of hand. Thanks for merging the thread and now I need to do some additional reading!
Phil
Last edited:
