azbox and SG2100 dont mix?? (1 Viewer)

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Mr Tony

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
291
39
Mankato, MN
I asked a couple folks if their azbox worked with a motor properly (as in it would actually keep a location) and they said it was bang on.

So tonight I tried to hook up the azbox elite with a SG2100 and was not happy :(

Locked 93W (true south) and selected Diseqc 1.2 and "save"...I did not do auto and selected my own position (1) and scanned in channels. Went to 91W and got that locked in. Saved it as 2 and scanned in channels. Now selected Azteca 7 (on 93W) and it said "moving to 93.1W in 20 sec" and counted down to 0....

no signal on screen

it did not save the right spot. Was off big time. Looked like it went to about 94 or so...Tried again. Saved 93, 91 & 72W. But here is when I noticed we have issues. I saved 72W and scanned in the NBC Satops mux.
1st channel shows 82 quality
selected second channel and the yellow bar didnt go as far....checked and quality was down to 62. So the receiver moves the motor on the same transponder....ugh!

So I went back to the Coolsat for now. Anybody using a azbox elite and a motor properly?
 
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putney

SatelliteGuys Pro
Aug 12, 2009
854
6
St Louis, missouri
Yes, I have a sg6000. I found that USALS works perfectly.
Diseqc 1.2 on the other hand is buggy. I found that auto save works best. And do not 'reset' a setting. It will shuffle the remaining settings.
Also, after hitting 'save' you must menu over and hit 'go to position' or the motor will go amuck.

That being said, I have no issues using it with my Gbox. I can assign locations and 'bump' the motor with no problems. I still have to hit 'go to position' for the save to take though.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
Ice (Tony),

Try to use USALS with the AZBox. Don't use DiSEqC 1.2.

I believe that both should work fine, but because of the screwy programming, it is difficult to keep the DiSEqC settings organized properly. With DiSEqC 1.2 motor positioning, you have to set each satellite up individually and I don't know how well the AZBox likes it.

I use USALS for EVERY satellite, except 30.0°W via my AZBox and it works great this way. 30.0°W I have to set with DiSEqC 1.2 because of my location coordinates and the limitations of USALS beyond a specific degree east or west.

Tony, I know that you have the Elite model and I have the Premium model AZBox, but I am sure that this difference has nothing to do with this problem. The differences are the power supply and HDD location and the option of the WiFi.

When you and I discussed this in a PM, I assured you that the motor control using USALS was SPOT ON. I adhere to that as it is still working so well for me today and it has been that good ever since I set it up.

I feel bad because it isn't working the same for you after I told you that it would work so well. I have had two different AZBoxes and they both worked perfectly in regards to satellite location. I don't understand why your AZBox Elite would not follow the arc just the same. They are the same machines, with a few different bells and whistles here and there, but the guts are the same.

If you have not been using USALS satellite location, try it instead of using DiSEqC 1.2 locating. I am noit sure that this is going to be helpful if something else is wrong, but I founjd that the AZBox doesn't like you to mess around with the satellite list. Every time I go there to play, it screws around with my other sat positions. I tried to forwarn you about this in my last PM, but I wasn't sure of how DiSEqC 1.2 functioned with more than one sat.

I really feel bad that your motor control isn't what I told you it should be, but I don't have any problems (other than what I stated about the corruption of the list) so I don't know what the error could be.

I cannot see the difference between the AZBox Elite and the Premium causing this. I have swapped so many different receivers with the same dish antenna and they have all worked spot on (except for the SonicView 360).

Tony, there must be something else that you and I are missing in this as I am sure that it isn't the AZBox itself. It cannot be, unless your AZBox is messed up, and I don't believe that.

We should discuss this further and come up with an answer so that others don't have to be surprised by this problem. We should get to the bottom of this. If you want, PM me for further discussion.

Gordy
 
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Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Feb 28, 2008
5,451
7
Near Chicago, Illinois
I use the AZ with SG2100 (USALS), SG6000 (USALS), and GBox (Diseqc 1.2) All work fine....except saving Diseqc 1.2 positions. I had numerous problems that change with Firmware updates.
For Diseqc 1.2, I use the GBox's remote to Find / Tweak and Save positions, and just used the MAZ Editor to enter the Position Numbers for the AZ. Not that easy with SG2100, but you could write down the Position Numbers from the Coolsat and enter them in to the AZBox's channel list via an Editor.
 

Yurek99

SatelliteGuys Guru
Apr 7, 2009
133
0
Ottawa
I have similar problem with Diseqc 1.2, but is working OK on USALS. If I remeber well, last FW working OK with Diseqc 1.2 was 0.9.2880. After that, strange things start happening.... Position was not saved, Sat/Channel list got corrupted, Sat position was changing etc...
There is lot of complains on AZbox forum about Diseqc 1.2
 

freezy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 19, 2009
959
0
Land of Sky Blue Water
I haven't tried USALs in a long time but it was ridiculous 8 months ago.

I have an elite with a digiwave sg2100. I'm still using my coolsat 6100 to run the motor. Running the elite in slave mode sucks. 1/2 the transponders wont work until I go back into the coolsat and tune to a missing tp

I remember reading on this site that blindscan and motor control wasn't big on the azbox priority list. They were saying the IP TV was the main focus and no real changes were on the horizon.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
I use the AZ with SG2100 (USALS), SG6000 (USALS), and GBox (Diseqc 1.2) All work fine....except saving Diseqc 1.2 positions. I had numerous problems that change with Firmware updates.
For Diseqc 1.2, I use the GBox's remote to Find / Tweak and Save positions, and just used the MAZ Editor to enter the Position Numbers for the AZ. Not that easy with SG2100, but you could write down the Position Numbers from the Coolsat and enter them in to the AZBox's channel list via an Editor.

Lak7,

I have been using my AZBox Premium with the SG2100 and the PowerTech DG-280B and DG-380 motors and have witnessed NO problems and no errors.

I have all satellites that I can receive set up to use USALS except one, 30.0°W. My longitude is 96.4°W and my latitude is 41.6°W and no matter what receiver or motor I use, the USALS system will not drive the motor beyond a certain degree. 37.6°W is good, but 30.0°W is a no go with USALS. So, somewhere between there USALS ceases to function for me and I have to switch to DiSEC 1.2 and position the dish step by step until I find the sat and then SAVE/STORE the motor position manually.

Otherwise, my use of USALS is spot on and so convenient that I told Tony in a PM that he would be pleased with the AZBox motor positioning. I feel bad that it doesn't work well for him, but I wonder if it doesn't have a relation with messing with the list of sats in the AZBox.

I have fought this ever since day one when I received my AZBox. If the list of sats and their positions are accurate, you regret editing them, as the list almost always becomnes corrupt and the table of memorized sat positions within the AZBox loses its mind. If I add a new satellite to the list, one or two other sat positions are comprimized during the process.

I have tried everything I can think of to prevent this, but just when I think I have resolved the conflict or problem, it screws me up again.

I have a back-up of my "good sat list" that I can rely upon so that I can reload everything easily and start over. But, that is not how this should work. Problems like this should not arise in the first place. I used the AZBox web site (OpenSat's bug report site) to complain about this issue a few times. Although, I don't see them addressing the issue yet. Maybe someday they will.

I will continue using my AZBox with USALS and adding new sats to my list, or deleting retired ones as I wish. I will just have to remember the littlke tricks that are necessary to keep my list clean and just woirk around the problems until they fix it permanently. A pain, I know, but not too awful.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
.....
Otherwise, my use of USALS is spot on and so convenient that I told Tony in a PM that he would be pleased with the AZBox motor positioning. I feel bad that it doesn't work well for him, but I wonder if it doesn't have a relation with messing with the list of sats in the AZBox.

I have fought this ever since day one when I received my AZBox. If the list of sats and their positions are accurate, you regret editing them, as the list almost always becomnes corrupt and the table of memorized sat positions within the AZBox loses its mind. If I add a new satellite to the list, one or two other sat positions are comprimized during the process.
.......

......I used the AZBox web site (OpenSat's bug report site) to complain about this issue a few times. Although, I don't see them addressing the issue yet. Maybe someday they will.

....

I think we discussed this sat list thing before. My Azbox CAME with a corrupted sat list, and the only way I could get it uncorrupted was to make a basic list with that .xml file method. After that I only make changes (except for sat names) via the remote, not the editor.
Anyway, unless they have changed the default sat list, I think that you MUST mess with the sat list, but you MUST make sure you get rid of what was there originally, not just delete and add via the remote, because with MY Azbox, it wouldn't let me delete the corrupted data.

I'm curious about you saying that you post to OpenSat's bug report site. I went to that page, and got the template for the bug reports, but there was no way I could find to actually post on that page. I had to go to their SUGGESTION page, and post there. I see that other people have done the same thing. But they eventually remove the posts there and move them to archives and the posts don't seem to get any attention.
Looking at their bug report page, I don't see any of the common bugs we all know the Azbox has, so I'm confused about whether they are actually getting the info or not. Or (more likely), I'm just missing something when navigating that site.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
B.J.

On the OpenSAT bug reporting issue, I usually click on the area TV MODULE and at the top there is a radio button for "NEW TOPIC".

I have the bug report template saved and I just update the information in the template for a new subject, then I copy and paste it to the new topic (and give it a subject title otherwise it won't accept it).

They have several sections for reporting bugs and they are basically structured according to the module (those that you see when you press the HOME button). The TV module is 01, You Tube is 02, Plug In Module is 03, Movie 04, Music 06 etc.

I don't use any of the specialty applications, like plug-ins, so I usually post bugs in the TV module section as it applies most often to the items that we are concerned with for FTA satellite.

There is a section deemed the "Public Bug List" and I think that this is just a hodge-podge of bug reports for users who don't exactly know what module to apply the bug to.

And then, there is the "SUGGESTION" box area which I kind of view as a "wish list" area, but people post bug reports there, too.

It is difficult to judge whether our bug reports are being taken seriously or if they are doing anything with them at all, but the staff there is definitely tracking and reading them. I have read many of the other reports there and right off the bat, I can see what the user is doing wrong myself. A few posts down, I see one of the moderators or staff members reply to them and inform them what they were doing incorrectly or how to set it up differently to make it work for their application. So, at least they are monitoring the forum in this regard.

As for bug reports that they do not reply to, and I have to take this on faith and a lot of optimism, that they somehow are dumping the data into a que for their programmers to investigate and that is why they ask that we use the specific template formats for reporting. It would seem logical to me, but I cannot prove that they are actually doing this. It is just what I would do.

I think that the site is laid out in a very organized fashion, but they provide few if any instructions and in that regard, it isn't really user friendly. They could have set it up much better in my opinion.

I think that they should have provided a "radio button" to "SUBMIT BUG REPORT" and then that would pull up a generic form for you to enter the data according to the format that they wanted you to use. Then, after entering the data and submitting the form, you could go to a list of all the reports and view yours and others and see any and all follow up information for that specific bug. At least this way you would be able to get some form of a progress report on the subject.

Can you sort of envision what I see in my mind? That is how I would have set up that site to make it more effective.

RADAR
 
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AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
I think we discussed this sat list thing before.

My Azbox CAME with a corrupted sat list, and the only way I could get it uncorrupted was to make a basic list with that .xml file method. After that I only make changes (except for sat names) via the remote, not the editor.

Anyway, unless they have changed the default sat list, I think that you MUST mess with the sat list, but you MUST make sure you get rid of what was there originally, not just delete and add via the remote, because with MY Azbox, it wouldn't let me delete the corrupted data.

Yes, we have discussed this issue previously. I have made some good progress with methods that I have been experimenting with, but it isn't perfect yet. I did manage to be able to delete all the data, but I did so in a round about method. With the remote, I deleted everything EXCEPT one stellite that I knew was right and up to date, then I started adding information back into the list via the remote.

I still have a few bugs in this approach, but it is much more manageable and the problems occur very infrequently.

I am patiently waiting to see if OpenSat does anything with upcoming software that addresses these issues. That would be the best thing if they can fix it permanently, rather than us being required to solve the problems with work - around methods.

Currently, I have my AZBox working pretty good and I cannot complain too much at this point. I was in the list in the past couple of days adding more satellites and haven't detected and screw-ups with the list yet. So, like I say, sometimes it is fine and managable.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
....
.....

There is a section deemed the "Public Bug List" and I think that this is just a hodge-podge of bug reports for users who don't exactly know what module to apply the bug to.

This is the section where I tried to post my bug reports, but it seems like that section doesn't allow posts. Seems logical that bug reports should go in the Public Bug List, but I guess not.

And then, there is the "SUGGESTION" box area which I kind of view as a "wish list" area, but people post bug reports there, too.

....
....

This Suggestion area was where I finally put my bug reports, because I saw a few other bug reports put there. But everything I put there was eventually moved to other archival places. Never got any response to any of them. It seems like if people don't respond and agree with the post, the they just get ignored.
 

freezy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 19, 2009
959
0
Land of Sky Blue Water
So who do I send my azbox to to fix my sat-list? I don't have the skills to pull that off. I'm sure I could learn. I would need a moron level step by step tutorial.

Losing 30w would be a pain if I had to run USALS. It sounds like I can add those far sats with discque1.2? Would a different motor be better?
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
So who do I send my azbox to to fix my sat-list? I don't have the skills to pull that off. I'm sure I could learn. I would need a moron level step by step tutorial.

Losing 30w would be a pain if I had to run USALS. It sounds like I can add those far sats with discque1.2? Would a different motor be better?

Freezy,

A different motor won't change (improve or diminish) the function of the sat list. The problem(s) with the sat list is purely programming and OpenSat has to correct these issues by fixing the bugs in their program.

It is really simple to add, delete or edit the sats, the problem is keeping the rest of the list from becoming corrupt when you make new changes. I have simply resorted to saving the three main files concerned when I have finally managed to achieve a proper listing. If I make new entries or edits and something else in the list becomes corrupted, I simply reload the saved files and try again. Eventually I get it to take correctly without altering any other sats and then I save the newly edited list as a permanent change.

Yes, it is a real pain, but you can manage it. It just isn't as fun to experiement with like some other receivers are (i.e Coolsat 4K/5K/6K).

To fix your satellite list, it does take time. The best strategy I have discovered for myself is to select one satellite that appears to be the most perfect (name, orbital position, TP list, etc) and retain it but delete all the others. Then, add all the satellites and TPs back in manually (or use the procedure that B.J. uses with a *.xml template and program). It helps significantly if you dispose of all the satellites that you KNOW you cannot use anyway (those from Europe and Asia that are too far over the horizon to view no matter what). This make it much more manageable.

RADAR
 

freezy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 19, 2009
959
0
Land of Sky Blue Water
I'll wait. It seems the issue is instead of having the positions relate to a degree on a circle they relate to how many degrees they are from each other.

It's like a Rolodex. It gets thicker in spots where you put in a new card and pushes all the others a little to make room for itself.

It should be more like a refrigerated vending machine, a fixed amount of slots all the way around. Which is how USALs is supposed to work. right?
 
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AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
I'll wait. It seems the issue is instead of having the positions relate to a degree on a circle they relate to how many degrees they are from each other.

It's like a Rolodex. It gets thicker in spots where you put in a new card and pushes all the others a little to make room for itself.

It should be more like a refrigerated vending machine, a fixed amount of slots all the way around. Which is how USALs is supposed to work. right?

Freezy,

It is more involved than that (or maybe less). I envision it as creating a table and using address pointers to access that table. The address pointers are the satellite orbital positions (i.e. 123.0°W) which points to satellite Galaxy 18 and all its contents (transponders and channels stored within).

For some reason, these "address pointers" become corrupt or confused and then they no longer direct you to the same satellite information in the table. For example, 123.0°W now points to AMC 3 and its data (which is erroneous and useless if applied to the 123 position). Basically, it seems, that all the data for the satellite (its name, its transponder list and its channel list) is relabeled or re-addressed with a new orbital location.

Your notion about the "Rolodex" syndrome holds some merit, though. As it seems that all the satellite information is stored and retained in a FILE. As you add a new card to the rolodex, another card gets transposed to another slot and it is no longer stored in the same position. It is almost like having an inept secretary working in your office who has developed a new system for filing your work documents. You asked your secretary to install a new file folder, so the secretary took several old files out to make space and when they were replaced, one or two files were out of sequence.

It is extremely frustrating and elusive as there seems to be no pattern to it at all. It appears that there is absolutely no pattern to it at all and it is purely random, like a secretary misfiling a document. The crux is, that it happens constantly.

It is difficult to explain when you don't really know what is happening, but they (OpenSat) has to be aware of the issue. Surely they have experimented with their own products and should have witnessed this, not to mention hearing all the complaints. Why they have not corrected it so far is really beyond me.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
I won't get involved in the Rolodex/coke machine issues, as that would involve discussion of how things work, which apparently isn't needed. :)

But I am still curious about Icebergs original issues with the diseqC-1.2 . When I first read this, I wasn't able to try to duplicate the observations because I use my Azbox slaved. I was hoping that the issues would be solved, but since the discussion is still on-going, I got curious again.

Since diseqC-1.2 positions are stored in the motor, and not in the Azbox, it seemed like there were a few likely causes of problems, ie either the satellite position numbers that ARE stored in the Azbox are getting scrambled, (which is what happens in the darn Fortec Mercury), _OR_ that the Azbox isn't actually sending the SAVE command to the motor, _OR_ that it is sending the save command, but each time it saves again, it might be changing the position number.
Before I went to the trouble of exchanging coaxes and trying the Azbox on my motor, I decided to just try manually entering a diseqC-1.2 position number into my Azbox, and hitting save, just to see if it actually retained the position number. This wouldn't actually do anything to my motor, since I'm not connected to it.
Well, I selected AMC-21, which on my motor is position number 49. I got out of the manual mode, and selected position #49 on the Azbox, and hit save. The (P-49) thing indicated that the Azbox had saved 49 as the AMC-21 position number. I then thought that perhaps if I tried to do another SAVE operation, that it might try doing this to another position instead of position 49. So I went to do a subsequent SAVE command, which is what you might do if you were going to peak a sat's position and save it again. Then I noticed that the Azbox had gone back to AUTOMATIC mode, instead of indicating a 49 down at the bottom. Just out of curiosity, I hit SAVE anyway, to see what would happen, but the (P-49) indicator at the top was still there, so it didn't seem to have re-assigned the position number, but who knows what it actually sent out over the coax. BTW, I DID run MAZ, to check to see if 49 was retained in the AZBOX memory after hitting SAVE again, and it was still there as 49.

HOWEVER, NOW, my question is, HOW would one ever get back to using AUTOMATIC positions, if you wanted to do that??? I guess you'd have to figure out what the last sat you saved is, and select that via manual mode.

Just to check that Automatic mode still worked on other sats, I selected a sat that I'm not using (more on that later), and told it to save it in automatic mode. It appeared that nothing happened at first, but it did seem to save it's position at the first unused (as far as the Azbox knew) position. I then decided to try to change THAT position to another diseqC-1.2 sat position number. I set it to 5, hit SAVE. NOTHING HAPPENED, ie it stayed at the position number that it was saved at before. So for some reason, there doesn't seem to be any way to even change the position number of a satellite after it has been set.

Anyway, now about the "more about that later" issue with the sat I wasn't using. Well, before I started all of this, as I had mentioned before in other posts, I had been working from a satellite list that I first created using that .xml file technique, and edited somewhat using the Azbox editor while back on the older 3877 firmware. This satellite list imported OK into the Azbox, and I'm 90% sure that it was still there when I started this today.
Well, after saving AMC-21 to satellite position 49, it seems like the AZBOX has now reverted to having the OLD probably corrupted satellite list in it's memory again. Ie previously, I only had sats between Galaxy15 and I805 (ie 133W to 55.5W for those unable to use Lyngsat), ie no sats were in my list that I can't see. Well NOW, not only are ALL the unused sats back in there, but they were added to my original list, so now there are duplicates, ie I think I have PAS9/I9 in there about 4 times.

This is bad. I have now changed my mind about experimenting any more with using the Azbox to move a motor, until I get this thing back with my old sat list. I'm HOPING that somewhere along the line, that I SAVED my small sat list recently, so that I won't lose too much. I THINK that I saved the files right before switching to the new firmware, but I'll have to check.

Anyway, yes, the Azbox does seem to have severe problems with respect to using diseqC-1.2, but it goes much deeper than I suspected. I fear that this Azbox has problems that aren't going to ever be solved without a significant effort both by users risking messing up their sat lists and by the Azbox people themselves devoting a significant effort to a box that they seemed to have shoved aside due to their trying to get the new PLUS versions working.

Anyway, it doesn't look good for this being an ONLY receiver for someone. It's still a nice receiver in the SLAVED mode, provided that I can get the old sat list back in there.
 

Mr Tony

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
291
39
Mankato, MN
BJ
I dont know why its doing that on Diseqc 1.2 but I tried it the other day again

Moved dish to 93W (my true south) and reset motor (with the paperclip)
hooked up azbox and locked in 93W as P1
scanned in azteca at a 75 quality
moved dish to 89W and saved as P11 (I use 1 as true south, then start at east limit of 61.5 as 2 then go across the arc)
scanned in ABCNews Now at 72 quality
then selected Azteca 7 and dish moved
quality down to 34
nudged dish east and then back to 75 and saved

so its still happening. What is weird is the motor seems to move on the same transponder. I hit channel up to Azteca 13 and all of a sudden the quality went down to low 50's

Its a moot point now as I redid my dish setup and need the azbox to be slaved. With G16 back in the mux (had the dish at 87W) and its HD/4:2:2/AC-3 channels along with 121 C-Band and 125 KU fixed setup I need to use it for AC-3 :)
 
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