Blue Ray HD DVD Technology maybe Dead

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First Blood in the New DVD War
The Toshiba-backed high-definition format may soon get support from three major Hollywood studios. That could put Sony's team in a tight spot

For months, rival electronics giants Toshiba and Sony (SNE ) have been battling over the next generation of DVD. Now, in what amounts to the first major victory in that standards war, three Hollywood studios are expected to announce within the next week that they'll release some of their movies on the high-definition DVD format that Toshiba is promoting. That could turn out to be a severe blow to the future of the Blu-ray standard, which Sony has been pushing with a coalition that includes most of the industry's largest computer and consumer-electronic makers. Advertisement


An announcement by Warner Bros. (TWX ), Universal (GE ), and Paramount about their adoption of this format by the end of 2005 is in the works, BusinessWeek Online has learned. Disney (DIS ) is also said to be in talks with Toshiba, although Eisner & Co. aren't close to a deal. Warner Bros., Universal, and Disney declined comment, and a Paramount spokesman didn't return phone calls.

Toshiba acknowledged that it has "been receiving a positive response from several studios" but that it "is not in a position to comment on behalf of the studios."

SLOWER GROWTH AHEAD. The movie makers are still negotiating final points in any agreement, and the announcement could still be delayed or scrapped, says one Hollywood insider. And in any event, the studios intend to make the deal nonexclusive, meaning they could still put their films out on Sony's Blu-ray format as well. But the expected agreement clearly would give a leg up to Toshiba's format, which it has developed with Japanese computer maker NEC, for a market that both Hollywood and consumer-electronic makers see as crucial as sales of standard, current-format DVDs start to slow down.

This year consumers are expected to spend $29.1 billion buying and renting DVDs, according to investment banker Veronis Suhler Stevenson. But after growing at a compound annual rate of more than 100% for the last five years, standard DVD sales are expected to grow by an average of 17% over the next five years and will grow by only 10% in 2008, Veronis says in its annual media forecast.

BIG-NAME BACKERS. Hollywood movies are seen as crucial to get consumers to buy DVD players using the technology, especially as they begin latching onto high-definition TV sets in greater numbers and want high-def DVDs to show on them. By next year, as many as 20 million U.S. homes are expected to have digital or HDTV sets, according to figures by Kagan World Media that the Blu-ray group made available. By 2007, as much as half the market could have the higher-quality TV sets, according to the Kagan figures.

Sony, which declined to comment for this story, has been building up its own momentum to head off Toshiba. Its Blu-ray format, developed with fellow electronics giant Matsushita (MC ), is being pushed by a consortium that includes more than 20 companies such major consumer-electronics makers as Pioneer, Philips (PHLKFM ), Samsung, Sony, and Thomson (TOC ), and computer makers Dell (DELL ) and Hewlett-Packard (HPQ ). Sony is expected to make movies from its Columbia and other studios available on Blu-ray as well as those from MGM (MGM ), which a Sony-led group agreed to buy in mid-September.

Both formats provide far sharper pictures as well as vastly increased storage space, which the studios intend to use to provide interactive capabilities that will allow viewers to buy merchandise, play games, and call up bonus material even while the movie is being shown. The Sony-backed Blu-ray disk can hold about six times the capacity of existing DVDs, while the Toshiba's HD DVD can hold about four times as much as standard DVDs.

DUAL-FORMAT PLAYERS. Studios are said to be concerned about the cost of producing the new HD disks. The big drawback for Blu-ray is that it requires a new plant and equipment to produce, and would be more expensive at the outset to produce than standard DVDs. The Toshiba disk, by contrast, is based in large part on existing DVD technology and is projected to be cheaper to produce than the Blu-ray.

Toshiba says it can make HD DVDs for approximately the same price as current DVDs and that HD DVD players, which are currently selling for $1,000 apiece in Japan, will be closer to $500 when introduced in the U.S. later next year. Moreover, players of disks based on Toshiba's HD DVD technology would be able to play current DVDs as well as those in high-definition, Jodi Sally, director of marketing for Toshiba, told a Los Angeles conference on Oct. 26. That should make it an easier sell to DVD users, who own an average of 25 disks apiece, she says. Sony has said it intends to get its production price down, and that its format would also be "backward-compatible."

Warner was widely expected to be the first of the major movie makers to join Toshiba. The studio was part of the consortium (which included Toshiba) that developed the current DVD and holds several patents for which it collects royalties on DVDs sold. The Toshiba-backed HD DVD is said to use many of the same patents in which Warner holds a stake. Moreover, Toshiba is already producing HD DVDs at a plant in Japan, while the more complicated Blu-ray process has yet to enter commercial production.
 
These are the same companies that backed Divx over the DVD standard we know today. Remember that these guys will back a format based on cost, perceived security, and their ultimate control over the format, never by quality.

Also, is it me, or does the story imply that only the Toshiba format is backward compatible? One of the fist rules of the "new HD players" regardless of who wins is that it be backward compatible. So that point would be moot.
 
The cost of disks and the ability to play HD, SD and red laser HD can't be easily overlooked. Nor can equipment costs.
 
This is all a Bullsh!t stall tactic to wait until SD DVD sales die down so they can launch "The next great thing" to keep the steamroller flattening our wallets. What a bunch of buttheads, and let's not forget about Sony's vast collection of movies.

I hope BluRay wins.
 
charper1 said:
Also, is it me, or does the story imply that only the Toshiba format is backward compatible? One of the fist rules of the "new HD players" regardless of who wins is that it be backward compatible. So that point would be moot.

It's backwards compatible with existing production equipment. In other words, they won't need to build new factories for the HDDVD disks, but would need to for the BluRay discs.
 
mkm4 said:
It's backwards compatible with existing production equipment. In other words, they won't need to build new factories for the HDDVD disks, but would need to for the BluRay discs.

That's exactly the reason. Scr*w the "good for the consumer angle", all they want to do is save money themselves. Why start out with a system that has a lower capacity for a new standard.
 
Sony controls almost half the titles with their aquisition of MGM. The HDDVD people have to get some studios on their side quick of they will be the blood in the water. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out over the next few months.
 
mkm4 said:
It's backwards compatible with existing production equipment. In other words, they won't need to build new factories for the HDDVD disks, but would need to for the BluRay discs.

My point was that the story implies that Blu-Ray players would not be backward compatible for current DVD discs, which is not true.

I am not worried about the factory process, just end user impact.
 
Would you like recorders at $2500 or $500? Discs at $10 or $50? Under which system does the consumer lose the most? And i believe that it was Circuit City that backed DIVX and Thompson (Blu Ray camp) who manufactured the first DIVX players.
 
Thompson, Kenwood, Zenith, Panasonic and even Blockbuster was on board. Other companies were slated (inked to deals) as the plugged was pulled when consumers flocked to our current DVD standard.

Blu-Ray is backed these major companies:

Dell, Fujifilm, Hitachi, HP, JVC, LG, Maxell, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK, Zenith

I could care less which one wins AS LONG as it is the better quality device WITHOUT handcuffing the user. Remember the death of BETA? A far better device than VHS, but because of copying worries in the US, and Sony's refusal to sell patent rights back then, it died.

I see the same thing happening here.
 
charper1 said:
Remember the death of BETA? A far better device than VHS, but because of copying worries in the US, and Sony's refusal to sell patent rights back then, it died.

It also didn't help that VHS did 2 hours recording right from the start and Beta had only 1 hour (but you could purchase a cassette changer if you wanted more).
 
Toto asked:
> Would you like recorders at $2500 or $500? Discs at $10 or $50? Under which system does the consumer lose the most? <

Personally, I'd vote for $500 and $10 myself :), as long as the quality isn't compromised, and I think that's the big question. The cost of Blu-ray for everybody would be dramatically higher initially, but as we know from past history, eventually the prices would ramp down as volume ramped up, and several generations of expensive devices helped recoup development costs. It would unfortunately tend to keep HD-DVD a niche product for several additional years (beyond the point they eventually decide to release anything at all), but at least we wouldn't need to start over again later.

OTOH, the Toshiba version would be vastly more cost-effective right out of the gates, and would ramp up penetration far more quickly. Virtually every aspect associated with it would be superior, except possibly quality.

IIRC, the relative capacities are on the order of 30G and 50B respectively. So the question is: is 30G enough? I.e., enough to handle extended length feature films (e.g., LOTR), in full-quality 1920x1080p, with audio tracks having quality to match, and room enough for commentaries, on a single disc? I think the answer depends on what encoding is used. From what I've read, when critically evaluated, MPEG2 isn't up to the job even at very high data rates, but would definitely require the capacity of Blu-ray to make it a contender. OTOH, MPEG4 variants (H.264, WM9, etc.) can do a superior job at 1/3rd the data rates, making Toshiba a viable option.

For example, a 30G Toshiba disc could hold a 3h20m LOTR film at up to 18 Mbit/sec rates for the video and 1.5 Mbit/sec for the primary audio track. Wouldn't that be more than enough? I don't know, but my understanding (based on comments by Joe Kane) was that even a 12 MBit/sec video encoding of 1920x1080p in WM9 looked spectacular. At those rates, we're looking at something in the neighborhood of 5 hours capacity/disc.

OTOH, if it turns out that 30G/disc is inadequate (for reasons that aren't currently clear to me), then obviously trying to cram content into that capacity will involve compromises that neither I nor most members of the Forum would be willing to accept. That wouldn't stop those with vested interests from pushing an inadequate standard though.

At this point, I just don't know how much is enough... 30G or 50G?

- Tim
 
The capacity of BluRay is also important for computers. They are talking eventually 4 layer disks with 100GB on them. While this is well beyond the needs of the film industry, it would be great for the computer world. Backups onto BR would be nice.

Sony controlling so much of the film rights to publish on video could make BR an overnight success with a launch of hundreds of titles if they want to do so.
 
This announcement means nothing considering Blue-Ray has the Sony Library, a large portion of the MGM library. Also Warner Bros. has already given their support to Blue-Ray already and the other studios will not be foolish enough to box themselves in by only supporting a single standard. Those other two studios will eventually support Blue-Ray but they are still in negotiations.

These posts of doom for one standard or another are really rediculous considering the products haven't even hit the market yet!
 
1.10 Will Blu-ray Discs require a cartridge?

No, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has successfully developed a new hard-coating technology that should make the discs even more resistant to scratches and fingerprints than existing DVDs (without requiring a cartridge). By making the cartridge optional manufacturers will be able to downsize drives for PC usage and lower their media production costs.

1.11 When will I be able to buy a Blu-ray Disc recorder?

You'll probably have to wait until 2005 or 2006 for Blu-ray recorders to become 'commonly available'. The driving force behind the development of Blu-ray Disc recorders is the need to record HDTV programming and currently the only country where HDTV is well established is Japan. There's still only two different Blu-ray Disc recorders available to consumers in Japan (the Sony BDZ-S77 and Panasonic DMR-E700BD), but as you can see in our Blu-ray Recorders section, most well-known consumer electronics companies have their own prototype Blu-ray Disc recorder in development, so we expect to see more Blu-ray recorders on the Japanese market during 2004.

According to Sony of America's senior vice president Mike Fidler, products based on the Blu-ray Disc format are not likely to be available in the United States until late 2005 or early 2006. However, LG Electronics has stated that they have plans to introduce a Blu-ray Disc recorder in the United States in the third quarter of 2004.
 
Don't forget Blu-Ray will be what is in the new Sony PS3.

This will give Sony & Blu-Ray a big leg up. A lot of people use their PS2 as their main DVD player. When they upgrade from the PS2 to the PS3, that will make for a large Blu-Ray installed base.
 
I don't care WHO wins as long as they resolve this before next summer. Otherwise it will be SACD/DVDAudio all over again and NO ONE will win.

I'm pulling for HD DVD only because of the cheaper switchover process (Manufacturers don't have to do a complete overhaul) so I expect it will be cheaper to produce, and hence cheaper for us, unless they get stupid and try pricing it $10 more a disc than SD DVD.

Sony couldn't get the world to cave on SACD, so I think they are not bulletproof here. I read somewhere that they have an 18% when Sony and MGM are combined. Formidable, but not overwhelming when they throw their weight around.
 
BobMurdoch said:
I'm pulling for HD DVD only because of the cheaper switchover process (Manufacturers don't have to do a complete overhaul) so I expect it will be cheaper to produce, and hence cheaper for us, unless they get stupid and try pricing it $10 more a disc than SD DVD.

Regardless of what it costs THEM, they will hold the line on DVD market prices to the retailer and the retailer will pass it along to you. So the ONLY one that gets a break on this cost is the factory/studio.

Support the best quality device with the least end user restrictions!
 
I think Sony's format has the larger capacity, but I was merely saying that the competing format might win because of an easier transition by the studios.

Sony has had a nasty habit recently of ignoring formats that they didn't create. My father still has a DVD changer that won't read CD-R discs (they were one of the last to support them).
 

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