Chimney Install by Contractor

[Mark2074]

A month ago I called a local installer to change the rotor on my 45ft tower which has a VHF/UHF combo. It was hard to find an installer that would come because it is cold and snowy, but I found one willing to come. Although, it would be $150 for the call no matter what I do, but if I decided they were to do the work the $150 would be canceled.

They came over on a Saturday and the owner took a look at my tower. This was like 3pm (1.5 hrs before dark). He said he didn't consider it safe to climb because it showed rust and the cross-bracing could give. He recommended a chimney mounted antenna (Delhi SFA-1483S "Super Flying Arrow") with rotor and because we are close to Buffalo we didn't need the height like we used to. I gave the go ahead because time was running out, it was really close to dark. Sure enough it was installed (although I wasn't all to happy about the $800 price tag that I was quoted, but it was done and over with).

After a week the rotor (CM 9521) got stucked during a resynchronization so I called the installer. That night I had a fire going so I was suspicious that that could be an issue. 2 guys came over and changed the rotor and said it was locked. One told me not to perform a resync because it could possibly lock it again. I was skeptical of that remark. That night I found that as I was programming preset positions in the controller the rotor drive drifted off quite a bit. It would be off 45 degrees from the original preset. But, I had no fire going that night. I would not resync the rotor, instead I would rotate to 000 or 360 to realign it. If I didn't rotate for a while the rotor would take a few seconds to move and drifting it further.

I asked the 2 guys if having a chimney mounted antenna was a good idea because I use a wood burning stove quite often. They said I should have no problems and they have perform many installations like this. So I shouldn't worry. But after I read some recommendations on the net, I clearly have concerns and I may relocate it myself in the summer, to where, I am not sure.

Here are pictures of the old tower and the new installation on the chimney. Any help or comments are welcome.

MySpace.com - Mark All Photos

I felt that I was basically dooped. I wanted it quick and it came dirty. If I waited until the spring I could have taken the time and done it myself the right way. I guess it is a lesson learned.

 

[Dgenx321]

I don't see how the heat coming from your fire could be any good on the rotor.

I think they took you hook, line and sinker...

 

[Mark2074]

I knew it

You know here in Toronto we really have caught the fever for OTA. For most of the Buffalo channels, it was difficult to receive a good analog signal since most transmitters are 60 miles away. Now with digital, people are jumping to the chance to get US broadcast networks in HD and save on Sat or cable bills. Also, to avoid the simsubs from our local broadcasters for shows like the Superbowl where we won't see all the commercials.

Guys like these must be praying on a whole new generation of people because outdoor antennas (compared to the US) were a thing of the past since the sat revolution. The good thing about the internet is people can do research and gather information on how to do the install themselves or find a recommended installer. That is what I did, I used a local forum and a member recommended this contractor. He says that he has 25 years experience. All I know is I called to have my rotor replaced and instead I get stuck with an antenna that will and is having problems. His whole intention was to install it his way because he was running out of time. Either way he was going to get paid.

The first time it stopped he sent a guy to turn the antenna temporarily because it was pointing away from Buffalo. Then another crew came and said the rotor was fine only to come home that night and find it still wouldn't turn. After a few angry phone messages and e-mails he sends another crew to finally replace it. The last crew point blank told me that the smoke and gases wouldn't bother the system and gave his opinion and the same advise like the others that the existing tower is no good. They keep on pitching to me to have it removed for $200. If I ever get it removed, it will be from a competitor not them.

 

[No Static At All]

Hey Mark,

Did the installer use a thin "round" black wire for the 9521 hookup? I had problems with intermittent operation, and eventually, complete failure with my new 9521. I checked, and re-checked all of the connections with the thin black wire that came with the rotor. (Channel Master brand wire). Through the process of elimination, I determined the wire was the culprit. I replaced the wire with much more durable rotor wire from Radio Shack, and the unit now works flawlessly.

I have my antenna chimney mounted, but we do not use our fireplace often. I'm not sure how much affect a wood stove would have on the rotor; but I would have leaned toward a tripod mount if the fireplace was used more often.

Hope this helps, Glen

 

[Jim5506]

The rotor appears to be 2-3 ft from the top of the chimney, probably sufficient distance for the heat to be diffused into the atmosphere so as not to be detrimental to rotor operation.

 

[rglore]

The rotor appears to be 2-3 ft from the top of the chimney, probably sufficient distance for the heat to be diffused into the atmosphere so as not to be detrimental to rotor operation.

Yeah, but the intense heat diverted by the chimney cap is aimed right at the mast & wires. Add a metal heat deflector or at least make sure the wire is on the side of the mast away from the chimney cap

 

[navychop]

And it's not good for the chimney, either, IMHO.

 

[Mark2074]

Hey Mark,

Did the installer use a thin "round" black wire for the 9521 hookup? I had problems with intermittent operation, and eventually, complete failure with my new 9521. I checked, and re-checked all of the connections with the thin black wire that came with the rotor. (Channel Master brand wire). Through the process of elimination, I determined the wire was the culprit. I replaced the wire with much more durable rotor wire from Radio Shack, and the unit now works flawlessly.

I have my antenna chimney mounted, but we do not use our fireplace often. I'm not sure how much affect a wood stove would have on the rotor; but I would have leaned toward a tripod mount if the fireplace was used more often.

Hope this helps, Glen

Hi Glen,

checked the wire. It is a round black wire but I think it is thick not thin. The installer used a roll of coaxial cable and rotor wire cable that was stuck together and you have to pry apart when installing. I think it should be good enough. But what to I know.

 

[Mark2074]

Yeah, but the intense heat diverted by the chimney cap is aimed right at the mast & wires. Add a metal heat deflector or at least make sure the wire is on the side of the mast away from the chimney cap

I checked the wire and he installed the wire away from the chimney on the mast. The slack for the rotor appears to be just over one side of the cap. This may be a problem. I do agree with others here that the chimney is 40 years old and chimneys are not meant to hold installations like this. This was a quick and dirty way for the installer. It happened so quick that day and after all that was said and done I realized this is not what I wanted.

I have decided that I will relocate the antenna myself come the spring. The weather here in Toronto is way to cold and snowy to do anything now. But, I am not in favor of relocating it to the roof on a tripod because I do not want to make holes through the singles and roof. I've had problems with my roof in the passed and since I had it re-singled in 2004 I don't want to start again. I feel embarrassed because I've done so many satellite dish installs including a 32" Fortec Star dish with a HH mover and I could have easily have done this myself with better results. I will openly say I am ashamed. They called themselves pros, but I knew more then they did, which gets me.

I am thinking about installing a small tower on the corner of my house. I found a supplier in my area. I can still make good use of the wire installed because the tower will be closer to the entry. As you can see from my pictures, the best place to install would have have been my existing tower. But, 2 installers (including this one) came and said they wouldn't climb the tower because they think it is unsafe. A new tower like this will cost $5k, which is a hell of a lot to pay for 20 channels. Although with a 45ft tower I could frequently get Rochester, NY due to tropo affects we get here.

 

[SatelliteAV]

Could you include some photos of the rust on the tower. The tower appears to be galvanized, so it would be unlikely that it has become unsafe for installation. Most installers do not have experience or own the proper safety gear to climb. It is a likely bet that it was easier for them avoid a climb by suggesting that the structure is unsafe.

 

[KenSoren]

Just a thought, but would a telescoping mast on the peak of your roof supported by guy wires work? I used one many years ago that was three 10 ft sections that worked well with a rotor and all. That would be much less expensive than a tower plus you could do it yourself and save some major bucks.

 

[Mark2074]

Could you include some photos of the rust on the tower. The tower appears to be galvanized, so it would be unlikely that it has become unsafe for installation. Most installers do not have experience or own the proper safety gear to climb. It is a likely bet that it was easier for them avoid a climb by suggesting that the structure is unsafe.

Thanks for the response SatelliteAV.

I've attached high res. pictures for you.

 

[Mark2074]

I went out (15F weather!) and I snapped a picture of the base.

 

[Mark2074]

Just a thought, but would a telescoping mast on the peak of your roof supported by guy wires work? I used one many years ago that was three 10 ft sections that worked well with a rotor and all. That would be much less expensive than a tower plus you could do it yourself and save some major bucks.

Hey Ken,

That method was used many years ago. Some houses still have this installation, but I want to be able to get to the antenna and rotor with relative ease because I don't trust these CM rotors. With the weather we have here in Toronto the rotor is already freezing up. Making me frustrated with it because I have to resync the darn thing over and over because it is way off. Maybe NoStaticAtAll was right maybe the rotor wire is not good for this installation, although I can't do anything now until the spring. Unless I call that installer and make him do it, which won't guarantee it will work anyway.

I would rather keep things off of the roof because when ice builds up (sleet) falls off of the antenna and ruins the roof. The garage roof under the old tower had a lot of damage from falling ice from over the years.

 

[midwestdxer]

The critical factor in climbing an old tower is the condition of the legs where they meet the ground.Can you get a good pic or comment on this? The tower has some surface rust,but looks ok to climb.The rivets are Aluminum so they can't rust in two.I'd get more opinions on whether it's safe to climb.Temporary rope guys could be used for an added safety margin on the climb.

Yes, these chinese made rotors can be a problem.I'd remove the rotor plate and move it down 20-25 ft,then mount the CM rotor using an L bracket.Then use masting all the way up through the top of the tower.Makes servicing the rotor much easier.Also,heavier wiring seems to help.I buy those cheap outdoor 3-wire 16 Ga extension cords they put on sale this time of the year.Much cheaper than bulk wire and it seems to hold up pretty good.

If you redo the tower you'll likely need to add a 10 element highbander below that new UHF antenna you just bought.

 

[Mark2074]

The critical factor in climbing an old tower is the condition of the legs where they meet the ground.Can you get a good pic or comment on this? The tower has some surface rust,but looks ok to climb.The rivets are Aluminum so they can't rust in two.I'd get more opinions on whether it's safe to climb.Temporary rope guys could be used for an added safety margin on the climb.

Here is a picture of the base of the tower. I think that the base is in good condition. Years ago I greased the first 2-3ft to maintain.

Yes, these chinese made rotors can be a problem.I'd remove the rotor plate and move it down 20-25 ft,then mount the CM rotor using an L bracket.Then use masting all the way up through the top of the tower.Makes servicing the rotor much easier.Also,heavier wiring seems to help.I buy those cheap outdoor 3-wire 16 Ga extension cords they put on sale this time of the year.Much cheaper than bulk wire and it seems to hold up pretty good.

I did research on these CM rotors and they are nothing but trouble. I found a supplier up here in Canada I have to get a good one. Thanks for the advice about mounting the rotor lower into the tower. This is a very good option to pursue. Midwestdxer how do you have such good knowledge?

If you redo the tower you'll likely need to add a 10 element highbander below that new UHF antenna you just bought.

Thanks for the heads up. The installer said I would need one, especially since a channel from Buffalo RTN 11 with revert to channel 7 in February. Would the existing VHF/UHF combo be sufficient for this task? It's about 14 years old. But, I know over time there is oxidation that will make the antenna lose gain.



Hey guys I just want to thank you for the overwhelming responses. Satelliteguys is an amazing community!

 

[dodge]

Mark
that tower looks ok to climb with the proper gear. I beleive your old antenna should be fine, it does not look like it is missing any elements or broke or bent. My parents have a 30' tower with a 30 yr old + Winegard antenna and they get all of their digital locals great even with old rg 59 coax coming off the antenna. When you replace the rotor replace the coax and rotor wire. Also a mast mounted preamp helps a lot as well.

 

[dodge]

The critical factor in climbing an old tower is the condition of the legs where they meet the ground.Can you get a good pic or comment on this? The tower has some surface rust,but looks ok to climb.The rivets are Aluminum so they can't rust in two.I'd get more opinions on whether it's safe to climb.Temporary rope guys could be used for an added safety margin on the climb.

Yes, these chinese made rotors can be a problem.I'd remove the rotor plate and move it down 20-25 ft,then mount the CM rotor using an L bracket.Then use masting all the way up through the top of the tower.Makes servicing the rotor much easier.Also,heavier wiring seems to help.I buy those cheap outdoor 3-wire 16 Ga extension cords they put on sale this time of the year.Much cheaper than bulk wire and it seems to hold up pretty good.

If you redo the tower you'll likely need to add a 10 element highbander below that new UHF antenna you just bought.

Midwest dxer, I like the array on your avatar is that for tv or for 2 meter 440???
I use a Winegard Hd8200P to TV DX.

 

[SatelliteAV]

I would concur that the photos do appear to indicate that the tower should support a climb with proper gear. I would also agree that you should snap a photo of the three legs attaching to the base. This could be the weakest link of the tower.

If you do not feel comfortable with the climb, consider renting a trailer mounted manlift, lineman or bucket truck. No sure if the terrain will allow, but it would get you up there in a hurry! Here is a link for a rental lift in Ontario

LINK

 

[Tower Guy]

Here are pictures of the old tower and the new installation on the chimney. Any help or comments are welcome.

The tower is a Rohn BX tower. I have painted such a tower in much worse condition. It lasted for many years. BX towers are tough on the hands. The cross bracing has sharp edges. Gloves are a must. Even when safe to climb the BX series is still a pain to work with.

I agree that any rust on the base of the tower can't be judged from the pictures.

The tower is located such that an house bracket can be added for an additional safety factor. Part number BXHBU

http://www.antennasystems.com/towers/BXCATALOG.pdf