Coax Cable Length

F

fchall

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Pub Member / Supporter
Feb 8, 2006
93
0
Pac.NW-Near Mount Olympus
I've got an out building/garage/shop out back.
At least 100'
Can I get a signal at that coax length off my DPP44?
 
KKlare

KKlare

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 18, 2003
2,397
13
Los Alamos, NM
The solid copper allows the DC control voltage to not lose much signal. A copper-plated steel core is stronger for suspended spans but is much more resistive for DC.
-Ken
 
P

PBX_Guy

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 27, 2008
105
0
Texas
get the solid copper approved for underground burial and you can go minimum 300 feet.
Sorry, I have to disagree.

First of all the only cable "rated" for direct burial is called flooded cable. This is a special coax which has been manufactured with a patented micro crystalline wax, rubber and polyethelene. (US Patent # 4716191) extruded between the jacket and core sheath of a cable. The stuff is a nightmare to work with because you get the sticky-gooey stuff all over you when trying to install conectors and it doesn't wash out of your pants. The only way to dissolve it is with a solvent. For this reason very few people ever use it. Flooded coax is waterproof. No other cable is. People in the trade sometimes call it "icky-pic" cable.

Secondly, from the standpoint of RF signal propagation characteristics, RG6 is RG6, period. I don't care if it came from Rat Shack, Home Depot or off the spool in the satellite or Comcast truck. There is no difference in RF signal loss figures. It does not matter if the cable is marked "3000 Mhz Sweep Tested" or if it says "Tandy Wire & Cable" on it. RG6 is RG6.

Quad-Shield RG6 has better shielding than conventional RG6, but no better loss characteristics. Quad-shield is practically a mandatory requirement for cable-TV work (to prevent ghosting & signal leakage into the aircraft navigation frequency bands) but quad-shield has no value or purpose in satellite work.

The following types of RG6 coax have approximately identical RF signal propagation characteristics (loss) at 3000 mhz;
  • Plain old RG6
  • RG6 Duofoil shielded
  • RG6 Tri-shield
  • RG6 Quad-shield
  • RG6 messenger
  • RG6 flooded
  • RG6 dual (aka figure-8 cable)
  • RG6 digital video rated (copper braid, extremely expensive)
RG6 cable which has been manufactured with a solid copper center conductor is hyped as being better suited for long cable runs where a DC control voltage is used for powering/switching the LNB or a SWM-8 or other mid-span electronics. However, if a solid copper center conductor makes the difference between working and not working, then your cable length was excessive to start with and you should probably be using RG7. RG7 has better (less) signal loss than RG6 and is less expensive than RG6 w/solid copper.
 
Last edited:
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
mostly right

Sorry, I have to disagree.

First of all the only cable "rated" for direct burial is called flooded cable. This is a special coax which has been manufactured with a patented micro crystalline wax, rubber and polyethelene. (US Patent # 4716191) extruded between the jacket and core sheath of a cable. The stuff is a nightmare to work with because you get the sticky-gooey stuff all over you when trying to install conectors and it doesn't wash out of your pants. The only way to dissolve it is with a solvent. For this reason very few people ever use it. Flooded coax is waterproof. No other cable is. People in the trade sometimes call it "icky-pic" cable.

Secondly, from the standpoint of RF signal propagation characteristics, RG6 is RG6, period. I don't care if it came from Rat Shack, Home Depot or off the spool in the satellite or Comcast truck. There is no difference in RF signal loss figures. It does not matter if the cable is marked "3000 Mhz Sweep Tested" or if it says "Tandy Wire & Cable" on it. RG6 is RG6.

Quad-Shield RG6 has better shielding than conventional RG6, but no better loss characteristics. Quad-shield is practically a mandatory requirement for cable-TV work (to prevent ghosting & signal leakage into the aircraft navigation frequency bands) but quad-shield has no value or purpose in satellite work.

The following types of RG6 coax have approximately identical RF signal propagation characteristics (loss) at 3000 mhz;
  • Plain old RG6
  • RG6 Duofoil shielded
  • RG6 Tri-shield
  • RG6 Quad-shield
  • RG6 messenger
  • RG6 flooded
  • RG6 dual (aka figure-8 cable)
  • RG6 digital video rated (copper braid, extremely expensive)
RG6 cable which has been manufactured with a solid copper center conductor is hyped as being better suited for long cable runs where a DC control voltage is used for powering/switching the LNB or a SWM-8 or other mid-span electronics. However, if a solid copper center conductor makes the difference between working and not working, then your cable length was excessive to start with and you should probably be using RG7. RG7 has better (less) signal loss than RG6 and is less expensive than RG6 w/solid copper.

The one thing you state here I have a problem with is RG-7. Not familiar with there even being such thing as a 7 & now you may be thinking of RG-11. Here's a listing of RG cables.

RG-6/U 75?? 1.0?mm Solid PE 0.185 4.7 0.332 8.4 double 0.75 Low loss at high frequency for cable television, satellite television and cable modems
RG-6/UQ 75?? Solid PE 0.298 7.62 quad This is "quad shield RG-6". It has four layers of shielding; regular RG-6 only has one or two
RG-8/U 50?? 2.17?mm Solid PE 0.285 7.2 0.405 10.3 Thicknet (10base5) and amateur radio
RG-9/U 51?? Solid PE 0.420 10.7 Thicknet (10base5)
RG-11/U 75?? 1.63?mm Solid PE 0.285 7.2 0.412 10.5 0.66 Used for long drops and underground conduit
RG-58/U 50?? 0.9 mm Solid PE 0.116 2.9 0.195 5.0 single 0.66/0.78 Used for radiocommunication and amateur radio, thin Ethernet (10base2) and NIM electronics. Common.
RG-59/U 75?? 0.81?mm Solid PE 0.146 3.7 0.242 6.1 single 0.66 Used to carry baseband video in closed-circuit television, previously used for cable television. Generally it has poor shielding but will carry an HQ HD signal or video over short distances.
RG-62/U 92?? Solid PE 0.242 6.1 single 0.84 Used for ARCNET and automotive radio antennas.
RG-62A 93?? ASP 0.242 6.1 single Used for NIM electronics
RG-174/U 50?? 0.48?mm Solid PE 0.100 2.5 0.100 2.55 single 0.66 Common for wifi pigtails: more flexible but higher loss than RG58; used with LEMO 00 connectors in NIM electronics.
RG-178/U 50?? 7×0.1?mm
(Ag pltd Cu clad Steel) PTFE 0.033 0.84 0.071 1.8 single 0.69
RG-179/U 75?? 7×0.1?mm
(Ag pltd Cu) PTFE 0.063 1.6 0.098 2.5 single 0.67 VGA RGBHV
RG-213/U 50?? 7×0.0296?in Cu Solid PE 0.285 7.2 0.405 10.3 single 0.66 For radiocommunication and amateur radio, EMC test antenna cables. Typically lower loss than RG58. Common.
RG-214/U 50?? 7×0.0296?in PTFE 0.285 7.2 0.425 10.8 double 0.66
RG-218 50?? 0.195?in Cu Solid PE 0.660 (0.680?) 16.76 (17.27?) 0.870 22 single 0.66 Large diameter, not very flexible, low loss (2.5dB/100' @ 400 MHz), 11kV dielectric withstand.
RG-223 50?? 2.74mm PE Foam 0.285 7.24 0.405 10.29 Double
RG-316/U 50?? 7x0.0067?in PTFE 0.060 1.5 0.102 2.6 single used with LEMO 00 connectors in NIM electronics
 
MrDogDad

MrDogDad

SatelliteGuys Family
Mar 21, 2008
66
2
Upstate SC
The one thing you state here I have a problem with is RG-7. Not familiar with there even being such thing as a 7 & now you may be thinking of RG-11. Here's a listing of RG cables.

That's what I thought as well, but a quick Google search shows that there is cable being labeled RG-7, made in China. It is used for cable TV drops. It has a 14 awg center conductor. Good luck finding someone who will sell you 200-300 ft:)
 
P

PBX_Guy

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 27, 2008
105
0
Texas
The one thing you state here I have a problem with is RG-7. Not familiar with there even being such thing as a 7 & now you may be thinking of RG-11.

http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/14263F17-8BAC-488B-AFE8-582760912B57/0/Pg066_RG7U.pdf

Attenuation (signal loss) is a function of cable size. Common ordinary RG6 cable will meet most residential needs 99% of the time. Use RG11 for longer drops. RG7 is a relatively new product, though major suppliers (Commscope, General Cable) are making it and so it is available from distributors such as Graybar Elect. and Anixter. RG7 is a compromise alternative for applications where RG6 has too much loss and RG11 is undesirable due to its size. RG7 and RG11 are used by commercial systems installers in MDUs (Multiple Dwelling Units or Master Distribution Units).

For reference, RG6 has an 18 ga. center conductor, RG7 has a 16 ga. center conductor and RG11 has a 14 ga. center conductor.

RG6 with a solid copper center conductor, from purely a marketing standpoint, is the "Monster Cable" of RG6, though the reality is it has no valid use in RF signal applications. Here again, RG6 is RG6. A copper-clad steel versus a solid copper center conductor doesn't matter one iota to the satellite signals. The signal loss per 100 ft is exactly the same. A solid copper center conductor might help in marginal situations where the cable length is too great to reliably operate the upstream LNB or SWM, but if that's really the problem then you're likely also going to need a signal amplifier for the RF. If you don't need the amplifier, then (IMO) you don't need solid copper either and you've let someone talk you into a bill of goods. (there are hucksters everywhere)

Coaxial cable exposed to the elements does deteriorate over time, so periodic replacement is always worth considering every 5 years or so. That doesn't mean you need a gilded lilly.

Most problems we see with "bad coax" is where connectors are loose and/or corroded at the ground block, loose (only finger tight) at the LNB, or the cable itself is punctured, abraded, kinked or pinched (by a staple gun or overly tight ty-wrap) or moisture has gotten into it. Sadly these situations are almost always the result of improper installation techniques back on day-one. The monkeyshines you can get away with at cable TV frequencies (50~750 Mhz) will bite you at satellite frequencies (950~2150 Mhz)
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
Koilvr

Koilvr

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 5, 2008
838
0
In a house
Sorry, I have to disagree.

First of all the only cable "rated" for direct burial is called flooded cable. This is a special coax which has been manufactured with a patented micro crystalline wax, rubber and polyethelene. (US Patent # 4716191) extruded between the jacket and core sheath of a cable. The stuff is a nightmare to work with because you get the sticky-gooey stuff all over you when trying to install conectors and it doesn't wash out of your pants. The only way to dissolve it is with a solvent. For this reason very few people ever use it. Flooded coax is waterproof. No other cable is. People in the trade sometimes call it "icky-pic" cable.

Secondly, from the standpoint of RF signal propagation characteristics, RG6 is RG6, period. I don't care if it came from Rat Shack, Home Depot or off the spool in the satellite or Comcast truck. There is no difference in RF signal loss figures. It does not matter if the cable is marked "3000 Mhz Sweep Tested" or if it says "Tandy Wire & Cable" on it. RG6 is RG6.

Quad-Shield RG6 has better shielding than conventional RG6, but no better loss characteristics. Quad-shield is practically a mandatory requirement for cable-TV work (to prevent ghosting & signal leakage into the aircraft navigation frequency bands) but quad-shield has no value or purpose in satellite work.


The following types of RG6 coax have approximately identical RF signal propagation characteristics (loss) at 3000 mhz;
  • Plain old RG6
  • RG6 Duofoil shielded
  • RG6 Tri-shield
  • RG6 Quad-shield
  • RG6 messenger
  • RG6 flooded
  • RG6 dual (aka figure-8 cable)
  • RG6 digital video rated (copper braid, extremely expensive)
RG6 cable which has been manufactured with a solid copper center conductor is hyped as being better suited for long cable runs where a DC control voltage is used for powering/switching the LNB or a SWM-8 or other mid-span electronics. However, if a solid copper center conductor makes the difference between working and not working, then your cable length was excessive to start with and you should probably be using RG7. RG7 has better (less) signal loss than RG6 and is less expensive than RG6 w/solid copper.

Yea boy is it a pain in da ass to work with. WHen I used it to give signal to a guest house I found out how much a pain it is to work with. But you can put maybe some RG6 in a conduit and have it water tight and it would be easier to work with
 
B

blooker

SatelliteGuys Family
Feb 8, 2006
35
0
RG11 type F connectors are a bear to work with and the bending radius for RG11 won't let you place the rear of the receiver near a wall or bulkhead. I want every db of signal strength so put up with the grief.
 
C

chainblu

SatelliteGuys Pro
Aug 25, 2006
611
73
You guys are giving the OP way more information than what he needs or wants. If it's an honest 100 ft (give or take) run, pretty much any RG-6 will suffice. Solid copper or clad, burial or not, I don't see any problems with what he wants to do. If it happens to have 3 ghz printed on the cable, so much the better.
 
KKlare

KKlare

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 18, 2003
2,397
13
Los Alamos, NM
...
RG-58/U 50?? 0.9 mm Solid PE 0.116 2.9 0.195 5.0 single 0.66/0.78 Used for radiocommunication and amateur radio, thin Ethernet (10base2) and NIM electronics. Common.
RG-59/U 75?? 0.81?mm Solid PE 0.146 3.7 0.242 6.1 single 0.66 Used to carry baseband video in closed-circuit television, previously used for cable television. Generally it has poor shielding but will carry an HQ HD signal or video over short distances.
...
RG-174/U 50?? 0.48?mm Solid PE 0.100 2.5 0.100 2.55 single 0.66 Common for wifi pigtails: more flexible but higher loss than RG58; used with LEMO 00 connectors in NIM electronics.
...
RG-223 50?? 2.74mm PE Foam 0.285 7.24 0.405 10.29 Double
These are some of the cables I have used. RG-58 is actually about 53-ohm impedance solid bronze(?) core wire while RG-58A or RG-58C are tinned, stranded, and 50 ohm.

RG-174 and RG-175 while flexible have copper-plated iron wires. These and other iron cores should never be used in magnetic fields especially rapidly changing ones as they will cause extraneous spikes. Could this happen nearby an AC line? Probably not, I'm talking of a kilogauss per microsecond or so.

I think it was RG-223 we used from the National Lab with solid core and a double braid, silver dipped--really good 50-ohm stuff but too expensive for my university days, c. 1968.

BTW, the 93 ohm and higher cables use spiral fill to raise the their impedances.

Back to Dish, I had copper-plated wire rust thru in my exposed DPP-44 switch and break off making a very poor signal path. Guess I needed some grease and waterproof fittings--hard to find, perhaps.

-Ken
 
P

PBX_Guy

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 27, 2008
105
0
Texas
I see it is the next gauge up. Does it use a standard F connector or need a new F-7 or nomenclature connector? It sure is gonna spread an F barrel input to a pretty large hole.
There are special connectors required for RG7, but one of the Palladin tools will crimp both 6 and 7. The F81 barrel is not affected because both RG7 and RG11 have captive center pins built-in or integral to the connector.
 
P

PBX_Guy

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 27, 2008
105
0
Texas
Back to Dish, I had copper-plated wire rust thru in my exposed DPP-44 switch and break off making a very poor signal path. Guess I needed some grease and waterproof fittings--hard to find, perhaps.

-Ken
If you watch the training video, the tech is supposed to use a weatherproof boot on all outdoor connections (though admittedly few do). Moisture getting in to the cable is the most frequent cause of problems. Use of flooded underground cable solves this, tho as I mentioned it's pretty nasty stuff to work with.

Use a good connector, put it on right, put a dab of silicone grease on the threads, make your drip loop below the ground block and tighten 1/4 turn past finger tight with a wrench (which almost no one does) and you should be OK. The weather boot is still very much recommended.
 
P

PBX_Guy

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 27, 2008
105
0
Texas
RG11 type F connectors are a bear to work with and the bending radius for RG11 won't let you place the rear of the receiver near a wall or bulkhead. I want every db of signal strength so put up with the grief.
RG11 connectors are only difficult to install on quad-shield plenum-rated cable, otherwise they're not hard at all (assuming you have the right tools) We never run RG11 all the way to the receiver input; make a short pigtail out of RG6.

Most often RG11 is used as trunk/backbone coax between the dish and your electronics inside for master distribution systems. The last 100 feet, i.e., the actual drop to the customer equipment is RG6.

One of the most harsh environments for coax distribution is a trailer court (OK, Manufactured Housing, to be politically correct, but it's still a tin can in my book).
 

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