Dish installed last night, no grounding??

[mammothskier]

The only thing grounding your satellite dish does is cut down on static electricity that builds up on your coax cables and your satellite and mast, thats it. If lighting hits it, it will likely destroy your entire house, I don't care how good you ground it! Does that mean you shouldn't have your dish and cables grounded? No. But everyone here needs to be realistic about what grounding does and doesn't do.

It takes a direct hit to cause fire and destroy the house, but it takes much smaller static discharge to damage RF tuner. How many "switch/LBNF/receiver has gone bad" problems caused by improper, or lack of, grounding.

My personal experience tells me that installers who don't ground the system do sloppy work in general. See my post in this thread with pictures of my "professional" install. I think these "installers" do it intentionally to generate service calls in the future. In my case switch buried in the insulation would certainly overheat when warm weather arrives.

 

[SimpleSimon]

tonyp: Having seen the results of direct and near-direct lightning strikes on grounded ('weak', or 'to code') and ungrounded systems, I'm say that while of course the grounding wires can't carry a strike, they DO "encourage" it to follow a path outside of the house - which is why that I do NOT do the indoor grounding even though it can be 'to code' that way.

What mitch says in post #78 is right in line.

 

[mitchflorida]

All of my national channels look practically like studio quality after the guy came in and re-aimed the dish and added a ground wire.

However, just two of the locals look excellent, EXCEPT that there is a tiny white dot pattern that goes up and down the screen periodically every 20 seconds or so. It's a band that moves up the screen. (plus there is some ghosting as well)

Would this is a bad feed from Dish or from my setup? Any ideas?

 

[bassetized]

but wait!, there's more!

we have an ongoing problem with Dish regarding the signal that somehow involves a surge protector. we live in an apartment and of course, the surge protector is apparently the only "ground". we've been having an intermittent signal for about 18 months now. the signal strength is 123 from 119 and 103 from 110. the forth repair tech (this one was a "supervisor") suggested that the surge protector needed to be after the box and straight into the TV, totally negating the $750 reciever.he said that in his experience, this was the only fix. why the hell would Dish put S-video and component outputs on the back of their boxes if this was the only fix? i personally think that the surge protector would make a nice appetisor for even a near strike on it's way to the rest of my system, so i'm not nearly convinced. in fact, the only thing i'm convinced of is that Dish installers and techs are deathly afraid of their ladders!
if this sh*t keeps up, i may become a luddite and go back to cable.

 

[cpa4u]

Well, I give up. After speaking with a senior person at the executive offices of Dish and the only solution she could provide was to call my retailer and get the installer back out to my house, I told her no way. There is no way that I am letting that guy or anyone from that retailer come back to work on anything at my house. She said that because I bought the system from a retailer, Dish was not allowed to come remedy the problem. She said that my only option was to have the retailer/installer come back out again. I spoke with him on the phone last night and he disputed everything that I have been told about how to properly ground the system. I have spoken with 3 local electrical inspectors, an electrical contractor and have everyone's opinion on here about the proper grounding techniques. He swore up and down that all of those opinions were incorrect. He says that grounding to an electrical outlet is much better than going all the way around the house to the meter/service entrance and main house ground. He also said that he could have grounded to the near by water faucet and that would have been to code. These guys that I'm dealing with have no clue. The manager at the retailer agreed with his installer.

So, I am left to find an electrician (at my own expense) to come properly ground the system.

Are there any installers on here in the south/central Ky area? LOL

Thanks for everyone's help on this matter too.

 

[StevenD]

WHy dont you just call your city's electrical inspector and have him come look at it?

 

[mitchflorida]

Who's your Congressman? I am sure he would also take an interest in this matter!

 

[mammothskier]

Well, after a few e-mails to the executive offices, I have managed to have them fix my crappy install and ground the system. As far as I can tell, it's up to code, but I am going to ask my city inspector. I did lease the system from Dish directly, which helped me to some extend, but the installers and their supervisors have no clue. May be I am too picky, but they don't understand the difference between #10 wire and messenger wire - it's all copper for them, and even why the grounding is needed in the first place.

They even have issues with simple logic. I can understand when they don't ground the system at all, but in my case they grounded one dish and left another one ungrounded.

 

[cpa4u]

StevenD,

I have talked with them on the telephone and described how the system is grounded. They have told me that it would not pass inspection. The thing is, I do not want the retailer nor his installer back at my house. So, I really don't have much to gain by pursuing that avenue. I am just going to take care of it myself by calling someone else to do it.

 

[klherr]

If you know what needs to be done just do it yourself......There is already a ground rod at your service.

 

[cpa4u]

The only thing is that the service is all the way around the other side of the house. I live in a zero lot neighborhood. So, in order to run the wire to the service, I have to go into my neighbor's yard to get to that side of my house. I don't feel comfortable attaching the ground wire myself when it has to go all the way around the house.

 

[larrystotler]

Pay to have it done, and then send the retailer the bill. Have the inspector check it out before anything is done, and take pictures of everything. Demand the insurance company of the retailer, and if he refurses, threaten to sue him. He WILL LOOSE.

 

[tonyp56]

tonyp: Having seen the results of direct and near-direct lightning strikes on grounded ('weak', or 'to code') and ungrounded systems, I'm say that while of course the grounding wires can't carry a strike, they DO "encourage" it to follow a path outside of the house - which is why that I do NOT do the indoor grounding even though it can be 'to code' that way.

What mitch says in post #78 is right in line.

I've never said anything about not grounding your dish and coax cables, I was only pointing out that it is wrong to think that grounding is going stop damage from happening from lighting. I too have seen direct results of lighting and power lines touching something that causes a surge, and I know that grounding helps, but it doesn't stop it. Like I said, static build up is the biggest thing that you are protecting yourself from, not a direct strike. (and what does "near hits" cause?(from mitchflorida) ) I am not saying that installers should be able to get away with not grounding dish and coax cables, I am only saying that everyone shouldn't try to make it out to be a magic bullet that will stop all damage from lighting or power lines.

I agree with you that ALL grounding should be outside, and I agree that grounding like you said encourages the electricity to go a different root. I just think that everyone is trying to say that grounding protects you from all surges, and I am just trying to give another voice.

 

[Rich McGirr]

Well, I give up. After speaking with a senior person at the executive offices of Dish and the only solution she could provide was to call my retailer and get the installer back out to my house, I told her no way. There is no way that I am letting that guy or anyone from that retailer come back to work on anything at my house. She said that because I bought the system from a retailer, Dish was not allowed to come remedy the problem. She said that my only option was to have the retailer/installer come back out again. I spoke with him on the phone last night and he disputed everything that I have been told about how to properly ground the system. I have spoken with 3 local electrical inspectors, an electrical contractor and have everyone's opinion on here about the proper grounding techniques. He swore up and down that all of those opinions were incorrect. He says that grounding to an electrical outlet is much better than going all the way around the house to the meter/service entrance and main house ground. He also said that he could have grounded to the near by water faucet and that would have been to code. These guys that I'm dealing with have no clue. The manager at the retailer agreed with his installer.

So, I am left to find an electrician (at my own expense) to come properly ground the system.

Are there any installers on here in the south/central Ky area? LOL

Thanks for everyone's help on this matter too.

Then call your retailer and tell them that you don't want dish...then call dish and re-order it again. Use your address with a 1/2 in it to become a new customer again. Or call the exec offices of Dish and ask to speak to Mr. Duffy (I have had nothing but excellent results working with him). He seems to be the most "common sense" of the types over there.

I had my Dish installed over 7 years ago, got educated on grounding, went outside and noticed no ground from the main rod to the secondary rod that the installer used. Called Dish, they said nothing we can do it's been years since your install. Fine come get your crap off my roof and I'll cancel. They told me that I would have to take it down. I said fine, but seeing as I'm leasing and it is technically still your equipment, if I fall off the roof be prepared to hear from my lawyer.

They then sent an installer out who tried to use aluminum to ground the second rod to the first. Told him, not good enough as it would then lay on the ground (needs to be elevated ~12" from ground to be effective). Installer goes to his truck and gets #10 AWG copper instead. Told him that was no good either as it needs to be at least #6. He left and returned on another day with #6 copper wire that is now connected to my main electrical panel ground rod with a split bolt.

Get the inspector over there to do an inspection...ask him/her to write it up and send it in to the local DPUC (Department of Public Utility Control, anyway in CT). Tell the DPUC who the installer company was and then see if you get anywhere.

It's a shame that for $30 installers are more than willing to put peoples lives/equipment at stake.

 

[Mike_H]

Some incorrect assumptions.

Has anyone ever used one of these:
http://www.starlink-dss.com/mini-surge.htm

Such a device as linked to above will do little if nothing to prevent your receiver from damage, and does absolutly nothing to ground it.

I hate to bust everyones bubble but it doesn't matter how good you ground a Dish you are not going to stop a lighting surge!!
...

The only thing grounding your satellite dish does is cut down on static electricity that builds up on your coax cables and your satellite and mast, thats it. If lighting hits it, it will likely destroy your entire house, I don't care how good you ground it!...

A properly grounded DBS antenna can survive a direct lightning strike. A properly grounded DBS cable can prevent damage to the electronics connected to it, as well as the home and those inside by being properly grounded. "Properly" being a level of grounding that does go beyond what NEC requires. But what NEC Requires is for human safety, not transistor safety, thus if you want to protect transistors there are additional steps you can take.

High current strikes can easily be shunted to ground via a low impedance path.

Static discharge is generally a non-issue in DBS sized antennas. And a grounded system will ensure it's a non-issue.

Proper grounding will also eliminate any concern over EM field damage.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...-Induction-of-a-Lightning-Strike~20040304.php

 

[larrystotler]

No matter how good your ground is, you can still get an overvoltage surge back down the coax to the receiver. That's why you should have a grounded surge protector in the line between the receiver and the line from the ground. Why take a chance and have you receiver shorted out, and possibly your TV and other electronics compoments when for $20-50 you can get the proper way to safeguard your equipment.

 

[klherr]

You guys need to watch more tv and quit worrying so much lol

 

[SimpleSimon]

... It's a shame that for $30 installers are more than willing to put peoples lives/equipment at stake.

Do you realize that $30 is almost half of what some installers gross on a basic installation job?

tonyp: We were probably just caught up in some semantic differences - it seems like we both know what's what.

 

[tonyp56]

tonyp: We were probably just caught up in some semantic differences - it seems like we both know what's what.

Agreed!!

 

[tonyp56]

Some incorrect assumptions.



Such a device as linked to above will do little if nothing to prevent your receiver from damage, and does absolutly nothing to ground it.



A properly grounded DBS antenna can survive a direct lightning strike. A properly grounded DBS cable can prevent damage to the electronics connected to it, as well as the home and those inside by being properly grounded. "Properly" being a level of grounding that does go beyond what NEC requires. But what NEC Requires is for human safety, not transistor safety, thus if you want to protect transistors there are additional steps you can take.

High current strikes can easily be shunted to ground via a low impedance path.

Static discharge is generally a non-issue in DBS sized antennas. And a grounded system will ensure it's a non-issue.

Proper grounding will also eliminate any concern over EM field damage.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/LSP-HTML/HTML/EM-Induction-of-a-Lightning-Strike~20040304.php

Ok, if you insist, but let me ask you this question. If grounding is so protective, "A properly grounded DBS antenna can survive a direct lightning strike." (which you say nothing of the equipment that is hooked to the DBS satellite!) then why do people buy surge protectors!! The electricity going into your house has several places before that electricity reaches your house that serve the function to do what you said with lighting strikes, "shunted to ground via a low impedance path" but yet you can still get surges. You are making a blanketed statement that if you have a "properly grounded" dish you won't have to worry about surges, (thats what you are saying when you say that it can survive a direct hit!) And that is not true, yes having a properly grounded dish will reduce the hit, but it will not keep it from destroying some or all of your connected equipment! The thing is, you probably have a 1 in a million chances of your Dish getting hit by lighting, (my parents had a 12' dish for over fifteen years, and it never got hit by lighting, and no it wasn't grounded!!!!) so the chances of you finding out what happens when it gets hit by lighting are slim, but just because it's grounded doesn't mean that if and when it's hit it won't destroy your stuff. It is total bull to say that grounding is going to protect your stuff from lighting! If it wasn't bull then surge protectors would be redundant! (everything is grounded, and re-grounded, and etc. if grounding took care of all instances of surges, then you wouldn't need surge protectors, because any surge would be "chunted to ground via a low impedance path.")