ESPN HDLITE

[Mike_H]

I get espn on 110. A 56" DLP set watching the Greenbay Ravens game is showing imaging issues that I didn't see during some games on Fox9. Specifically localized pixilization on different areas of the screen every once and a while. And more often softening of the detail in moving areas of the screen. The softening is obviously related to the image processing done by someone, my guess Dish. I saw that when they first switched their compression equipment a while ago and were still tweaking it. This can be seen where say everyone is on the line and the ball is being ready to be hiked. Fairly good detail, you can see detail in the grass and detail in the players (sweat, uniform texture) then they hike the ball and the detail starts to fade, in particular the detailed grass becomes a mushy green area. Then once the play is over you can see the detail start to come back.

Note that with my tv, the seating position is about 10 feet back

I'll try and watch some ESPN sports events the next week or so and if I still see the issue, I know I'll report it to dishquality. An e-mail to them has always resulted in a response from dish to me.

 

[TigerpounceTN]

then they hike the ball and the detail starts to fade, in particular the detailed grass becomes a mushy green area. Then once the play is over you can see the detail start to come back.

This is because low bitrate MPEG4 H.264 tends to blur the picture before it becomes a mess of blocks like low bitrate MPEG2 would produce. Dish is pretending this is HD while giving us Netflix streaming bitrates the majority of the time on some channels. ESPN seems to be one of those channels.

 

[redelephants]

This is because low bitrate MPEG4 H.264 tends to blur the picture before it becomes a mess of blocks like low bitrate MPEG2 would produce. Dish is pretending this is HD while giving us Netflix streaming bitrates the majority of the time on some channels. ESPN seems to be one of those channels.

does anyone have the ability on here to determine the bitrates? I would be curious to know what the bitrates are being lowered to.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Ever notice that some things on ESPN HD look better then others.

Most of the time is not from Dish Network its actually from ESPN itself.

ESPN is in 720p while many of the trucks they use are 1080i, this means that ESPN has to downconvert the 1080i to 720p on the fly. Then consider that your satellite receiver normally re uponverts the 720p back to 1080i for your TV. There is a loss of PQ here. (I would LOVE to see the Dish boxes with Native mode!)

In addition I have seen some games on ESPN that looked great, only the next day see a game from the same facility that looked like crap and I am told by my friend at ESPN that a different truck was used which had different equipment causing the major difference in PQ.

But then there is times it COULD be a Dish issue. Dish Networks custom made MPEG4 encoders use Variable Bit Rate Encoding, this allows programs / channels airing on the same transponder more bandwidth when they need it andlowering bandwith on the others where the video does not need it. This is all done on the fly by encoders deciding who gets what and when they get it. Most of the time it does a good job but sometimes it does not.

This is what its like (unfortunately) living on the bleading edge of television technology.

 

[--sexy-warlock--]

I have noticed that for Sportscenter broadcasts, the image is fuzzy. But the Sunday pre-game shows are razor sharp and make me just sit there and look at the shadow detail in the creases on everybody's suits.

 

[primetimeguy]

Over on AVS pretty much everyone was complaining about ESPN MNF, regardless of provider. So I agree, most of the time it is ESPN. But anything subpar from them only gets worse as Dish compresses more. I can probably count on one hand the number of good PQ games of any sort on ESPN in the last year.

 

[Kb Cool]

But then there is times it COULD be a Dish issue. Dish Networks custom made MPEG4 encoders use Variable Bit Rate Encoding, this allows programs / channels airing on the same transponder more bandwidth when they need it andlowering bandwith on the others where the video does not need it.

Is there any hope that one day Dish will not have to resort to "Bit stealing" in the future? Maybe new satellites that go up will have additional capacity. So they can stop the thievery? Or will this only get worse?

 

[sam_gordon]

ESPN is in 720p while many of the trucks they use are 1080i, this means that ESPN has to downconvert the 1080i to 720p on the fly. Then consider that your satellite receiver normally re uponverts the 720p back to 1080i for your TV. There is a loss of PQ here. (I would LOVE to see the Dish boxes with Native mode!)

The trucks are actually switchable between 720 & 1080. If a game needs to be done in 1080, the crew makes the switches to do that. If it needs to be 720, a few clicks and you get 720.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Actually not all are, I thought this was the case but my next door neighbor who works at ESPN (My house is only 10 miles from ESPN in Bristol) taught me otherwise.

 

[sam_gordon]

See if you can ask him which truck is 1080i only. That just doesn't make sense to me, from the truck companies end (why limit which HD clients you'll get) or from ESPN's end (why get a truck that you need to convert the format).

 

[whatchel1]

See if you can ask him which truck is 1080i only. That just doesn't make sense to me, from the truck companies end (why limit which HD clients you'll get) or from ESPN's end (why get a truck that you need to convert the format).

Depends on which encoders are in the truck that is being used. Some can't change their resolution.

 

[sam_gordon]

Depends on which encoders are in the truck that is being used. Some can't change their resolution.

A) Encoders are usually on the uplink truck, not the production truck (although there are exceptions).
B) Even if that's the case, it still doesn't explain why a vendor would limit his potential client base (ABC, Fox, Fox Regional Sports, Speed, and most of Nascar are 720P), or why ESPN would hire a truck that can't give them the right signal.

 

[whatchel1]

Production truck?

A) Encoders are usually on the uplink truck, not the production truck (although there are exceptions).
B) Even if that's the case, it still doesn't explain why a vendor would limit his potential client base (ABC, Fox, Fox Regional Sports, Speed, and most of Nascar are 720P), or why ESPN would hire a truck that can't give them the right signal.

Where did I say anything about it being the production truck? I know the difference between a production truck & an uplink truck. If you will search it depends on what company that can be hired to uplink at the time. Few companies own their own trucks. Here's a link to all the companies that provide uplink, production & other satellite services: URONTV.COM PRESENTS: SATELLITE UPLINK LINKS I went thru several different companies here (since I almost went to work for one of these building them) to see what is now offered. So have fun finding out that some trucks can only uplink in 720p some only in 1080i and some can uplink in any standard (HD & SD or both at the same time). Very few can up link C-band so most is done on Ku band.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

See if you can ask him which truck is 1080i only. That just doesn't make sense to me, from the truck companies end (why limit which HD clients you'll get) or from ESPN's end (why get a truck that you need to convert the format).

His reply back to me was that most of them are. For a lot of things they rent whats available. He said that very few of the trucks that they are 720p /1080i switchable. He did say however that some of the newer ones are indeed switchable and it will become more commonplace in the future.

He also said that sending video back via fiber is another issue in itself, but didn't go into details.

 

[Jim5506]

Well, I'm watching the Bulls-Hawks game right now and the picture looks very good.

No pixellation, no macro blocking, no noticable blurring of the background.

Watching on a Hitachi 57F59 57 inch RPCRT from about 10 ft away.

This has however reminded me why I quit watching the NBA - a series of one-on-ones interrupted by freethrow - BORING!!

Now I can change back to the local news in SD for some excitement.

 

[primetimeguy]

Well, I'm watching the Bulls-Hawks game right now and the picture looks very good.

No pixellation, no macro blocking, no noticable blurring of the background.

Watching on a Hitachi 57F59 57 inch RPCRT from about 10 ft away.

This has however reminded me why I quit watching the NBA - a series of one-on-ones interrupted by freethrow - BORING!!

Now I can change back to the local news in SD for some excitement.

For me it is still very subpar. If typical ESPN is a 5 out of 10, this is about a 6.5. Look at there jerseys of a player any time they move. Do detail and they are a pixilated mess.

 

[Jim5506]

UConn-Kentuckey game right now - no pixellation seen, looking at uniforms and numbers during motion.

Setting up close < 3ft details are very sharp, no blocking, no smearing, no pixellation.

Switched to my 84 inch Sony CRT front projector on a ViP211 - still no pixellation, etc. on ESPN off 110.

I even rewound and played the game a 1/15 slo-mo nothing but the usual motion blur.

 

[primetimeguy]

UConn-Kentuckey game right now - no pixellation seen, looking at uniforms and numbers during motion.

Setting up close < 3ft details are very sharp, no blocking, no smearing, no pixellation.

Switched to my 84 inch Sony CRT front projector on a ViP211 - still no pixellation, etc. on ESPN off 110.

I even rewound and played the game a 1/15 slo-mo nothing but the usual motion blur.

Looks the same as NBA game to me, not good enough.

 

[whatchel1]

blurring & smearing

I just went up to about 3 ft away and there was smearing & blurring. They just lost picture and only have sound. There is some real serious equipment problems causing this. It just cam back up and it still seems to have alag problem.I think they are having an encoder or transmitter problem in the uplink truck.

 

[kstuart]

Is there any hope that one day Dish will not have to resort to "Bit stealing" in the future? Maybe new satellites that go up will have additional capacity. So they can stop the thievery? Or will this only get worse?

All digital video is lossey.

Lossless HD digital video would take up one satellite per channel.

In other words, 119 would be entirely just for ESPN-HD, 110 would be entirely ESPN2-HD, 129 would be entirely for ESPNEWS-HD and no room left even for TNT-HD, let alone CNN, etc.

So, it is just a matter of degree, a.k.a. bitrate.