Freeing the Bird (view) from 4D for FTA with Pansat. LNBF question...

[radio]

My motorized Birdview unit with the "621" LNBF is feeding C-band to both 4D unit and to my Pansat 3500 via single cable. Ku band not hooked up yet. C-band Pansat FTA has been WONDERFUL! I've had to change polarities with the 4D, and want to get away from that, and use 4D only for positioner, thus making FTA easier in scanning and enjoying.

Last night, I decided to finally let the Pansat power the LNBF directly, bypassing the 4D's signal path completely, and directly wire the C-band portion of the 621 LNBF to the Pansat, thus controlling polarity from the FTA Pansat receiver, and no need to switch polarities via the 4D. (still using 4d for positioner until Gbox gets installed.) Seemed logical, and an easy "next step" in the ongoing Birdview conversion to FTA.

To my surprise, I was unable to get any signal on the Pansat when directly wired. Kept horizontal channel's signal tuned-in for the switchover, (Ion network feed) but got no signal when Pansat is fed directly by the C-band side of the LNBF. When put back on the power-passive splitter, with 4D powering the LNBF, all goes back to "normal" on the FTA!

Its as if there is no voltage on the LNBF output from the Pansat, but measured 18 volts on coax going to LNBF, and the picture is restored when returned to the 2-way power passive splitter, with power supplied by the 4DTV's LNB power supply.

Do I have a polarity issue needing re-scanning (somewhere I read that the 4D and FTA polarities are reversed)...or is there something else? The polarities as listed on various sites, I thought matched from 4d to FTA as I scanned them in. The 4D is on W1, transponder 300 when the system is functioning as a pair.

There is no option to turn the LNB power on or off in this model of Pansat in any menu I can find...and, would obviously need power in any case, so I think with the 18 volts, the absence of power is not the problem.

Does the Ku side of my LNBF need to be hooked up and the diseq be put in place on this receiver for C-band to work once it's stand alone? Doesn't make sense to me....

I'm "old hat" at C-band, new to FTA as we know it today and, to Ku.

Perhaps this info and the two pictures will help? The pictures are when fed through the 4D and splitter, not when direct to the LNBF.

I'm grateful for any ideas, and not afraid to sound like a rookie on this one!

Thanks again for a great site! (and especially the polite attitude shown by users!)

 

[Lak7]

In the 4DTV unit, look to see if you had "Rotate 90" selected in the LNB Setup Menu, if No, then, in the Pansat, select the TP in question, and change it to the opposite Polarity. Do you get a Lock?
If so, you need to rotate the LNBF 90
The C Band "square box" should be at 9 and 6 o'clock, or pop the Feed Cover off. You will see a 1/4 metal rod, that should be horizontal when the Dish is at your South Sat.

 

[radio]

So, if I understand correctly, what's happening could be that the 18 volts we're NOT using right now (power blocked from FTA,) while the 4D powers the LNBF is actually OPPOSITE of the voltage that will run the LNBF when the Pansat is powering it. Essentially, my polarities are being reversed when I apply the Pansat's voltage.

If memory serves, the 4d is NOT set for any 90 degree offset at all, I made no changes when we swapped an original birdview dual feed for this 621 LNBF. Signal on both C-band FTA and 4D is incredible, so I had no reason to doubt the setup is correct.

Am I partially on track to understanding your scenario?
Thanks so much. all opinions and viewpoints on this welcomed!
Will try working on this Thursday!

 

[Mr Tony]

I noticed in the 2nd pic you have 22k ON (also you have the wrong LNB LO set)...Depending on the model of the 621 there is a 22k switch built in or a diseqc. The standard model of the 621 uses a 22k switch to switch between C & KU....the Universal model (621-2) uses an internal diseqc

Since you are using a 4DTV with it, you probably have the standard version so when you hook it directly to the Pansat its trying to get KU. Change the settings to
22k OFF
LNB LO 5150 (not 10750)

then hook up the C-Band cable and blind scan. The frequencies will match what Lyngsat and the list shows

What version do you have? Check the LNB and it will show what the KU is.
If its 9750/10600 that is the Universal (621-2)
If it says 10750 then its the standard one

 

[radio]

Its a standard 621. Will shut that 22khz off. Thanks! Can't wait to do all this stuff and make the BV full FTA.......then, once we have Ku band running, It'll be Gbox time.
I was planning on using the separate feeds for c and Ku from the dish (former horiz and vert feeds from the birdview.) Does this change the settings you recommend?

 

[radio]

Well, I think I'm even more confused after trying again on things. I'll apologize in advance, as I say, the score's now: "4D hookup: 2; Direct Connection: 0."

Remained on W1/AMC-1.

(4) pictures powered by 4D show a vertical polarity channel (two shots of PBS, I believe) with good quality, and its signal screen then the same channel running with setup screen, followed by a signal screen from the California Channel.

I have set the numbers per suggestions, but something is not "talking" via direct connection: Zero signal, horiz and vertical blind scans. Then, when re-scanning upon connecting back to 4D:

Both H and V are fine, (as I blind scan, I switch the 4D to a vertical channel for the second half of the scan.)

Meaning: the LNBF is fine for CBAND thus far. The cabling is talking and connecting with the LNBF when the power/polarity is 4D controlled. To review, we DO have verified voltage coming from the Pansat's LNB supply, so that's not the (Pansat) issue.

What is missing here? Why can't the components talk when wired directly from the LNBF C-band side to Pansat? I shut down the 22khz and diseq, (at this point, we're C-band only)....and, I'm using a straight C-band feed from the C-band side of the LNBF.

There is NO cable connected yet to the Ku side of the standard 621, I'm planning to use a separate feedline for that, and a switch (of whatever the assembled here recommend) inside the residence to switch from C to Ku, unless this group recommends using the built-in one from the 621 and the single jumper and single cable into the home.

What really confuses me, is that the polarities match the charts! the PBS feed and California Channel are Vertical on the chart and match on the receiver! (for instance.)

I'm REALLY lost here. So sorry.....but, I've got all the time in the world to play, and look forward to the help. Latest pics attached with current settings. (now viewing a vertical channel.)

I'm going to be owing some of you for all the help! Hopefully my (few) past and (more) future posts will provide enough entertainment for repayment.

 

[Mr Tony]

Its a standard 621. Will shut that 22khz off. Thanks! Can't wait to do all this stuff and make the BV full FTA.......then, once we have Ku band running, It'll be Gbox time.
I was planning on using the separate feeds for c and Ku from the dish (former horiz and vert feeds from the birdview.) Does this change the settings you recommend?

If you use separate feeds to a Diseqc switch then yes. Since you are bypassing the internal switch you would set it up in the menu for Diseqc then whatever port you use

 

[Mr Tony]

I have set the numbers per suggestions, but something is not "talking" via direct connection: Zero signal, horiz and vertical blind scans.

weird...even if the polarity was off (as noted in above posts) blind scan will still pick up something. Now to verify, you are backing out of the screen like in the 3rd pic and selecting "smart scan" in the menu? See the pic below (that is from a 6000 but shows the same menu structure)

Then, when re-scanning upon connecting back to 4D:

Both H and V are fine, (as I blind scan, I switch the 4D to a vertical channel for the second half of the scan.)

Meaning: the LNBF is fine for CBAND thus far. The cabling is talking and connecting with the LNBF when the power/polarity is 4D controlled. To review, we DO have verified voltage coming from the Pansat's LNB supply, so that's not the (Pansat) issue.

What is missing here? Why can't the components talk when wired directly from the LNBF C-band side to Pansat? I shut down the 22khz and diseq, (at this point, we're C-band only)....and, I'm using a straight C-band feed from the C-band side of the LNBF.

Do you have any other receivers you can try this on?

 

[radio]

Oh, I do wish I had another receiver to try. Not against finding one! No, I have not done "smart Scan" at all. Is that the scan I want when reconnecting directly?
I'm finding it odd that re-scans duplicate identical channels which I end up deleting.

Might that be the problem?

Perhaps its just my procedures!
I did read the manual, but, I'm finding that if one knows the basics, the best instructions are from knowledgeable people!

 

[Mr Tony]

On the 621 where is the arrow pointed on it? There is an arrow at the end of the LNB which is 0 skew and if I remember right the arrow needs to be at 3:00 or 9:00 (like a clock) to be at 0 skew

But lets get the other question answered first in regards to blind scan. If you hit OK at the bottom where it says "satellite scan" it will only scan the existing transponder base. If the polarity is off (because the LNB isnt skewed properly) a sat scan wont pick them up but a blind (smart) scan will (but the polarity will be off)

 

[Mr Tony]

No, I have not done "smart Scan" at all. Is that the scan I want when reconnecting directly?

yeah do a smart scan. I was responding when you posted here so I made extra notes

smart scan is what you want to do most of the time. That finds any active signal where you are regardless if you're on the wrong sat or polarity is wrong

Hook the cable directly to the 3500 and do a smart scan and see what happens. If it logs the PBS & California channel on the H side (the frequency and symbol rate will be the same) then the polarity is off by 90 degrees

 

[Mr Tony]

radio
Did you have any success?

 

[radio]

I'm glad you asked!

Yes!

This forum is the BEST. A combination of info has helped as follows:

1) the LNBF did, indeed function with 4D as normal, but was 90 degrees off for FTA. Moved the LNBF so the arrow (inverted, see picture) was nearly dead center in what would be the bottom 2 struts of the Birdview Hexapod mount. (though it points up, of course)... Re-scanned, and I have horizontal and vertical C-band FTA with excellent results thus far. This was suggested via this forum. Thanks!

2) Still using 4D to move the FTA, but Gbox is ready to install. Question: Ku band hookup and tweaking sounds like it should happen first, so we have only one variable at a time, right? THEN....install the new dish mover?

3)If the above is correct, next is the hookup of the diseq so I can add the Ku feed to the FTA. Since we've had such great luck here asking for help, is there a specific "direction" in which I need to hook it up? (which side is ku and which is C...or do I just hook it so C-band feeds through as it rests unpowered, and turn on the diseq switching?)

4) Any exceptionally good or exceptionally weak Ku signals/satellites I should use for tweaking? Then, a full re-scan of each satellite? Hate having to delete duplicates as new scans find 'em.

I am so enjoying this project. Thus far the C-band on the 621 switches quickly, has consistent quality as shown, and is doing a GREAT job with the birdview.

If you see anything in the pics that doesn't look right, please let me know, and I'd love input on any or all of the above if its not too much bother!

-radio

 

[Mr Tony]

2. I personally would install the gbox first. Since (I assume) C-Band works fine right now by using the 4DTV to move the dish you know if you switch to a gbox it should still work.
3. It's really up to you how you want to use the diseqc switch. Me personally would use port 1 as C and port 2 as KU. Or since there is a 22k switch built in to the LNB you wouldnt need a diseqc switch (unless you are hooking more than 2 things to that switch). You will need to set up diseqc on ALL sats that you use.
4. Well right now since most of the pics show 103W (W1) I would suggest moving to another sat and tweaking for KU. Reason I say this is the KU Band side of W1 (AMC1) has a skew anomaly. Its skewed the wrong way by 26 degrees. C-Band is "normal" but the KU side gets skewed like you were aiming the dish at 74W. See attached pic at end.

For KU check thelist at the top. Most sats have a transponder that says "strong signal" or this thread helps too
http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-fta-discussion/85225-i-need-strong-transponder-aim-my.html

what you can do is when you're on the satellite peak with the strong transponder first and then blind scan (or just check against thelist for other transponders) and go from there. With peaking a dish is rough ball on a strong TP then peak and tweak on a weak TP (damn thats a goofy rhyme there)

 

[Mr Tony]

on a side note I wish I could get PBS on W1 like that....on the 6 footer it barely crack 30-35 on the Pansat

 

[radio]

Thanks for the help and the note! I'm very, very lucky to have a dish that works well, and...I understand my choice in LNB's is not the best in the world, but the results on C-band have been very enjoyable thus far.

I'll follow your instructions on Friday and give the Ku a whirl. Would be nice to be able to install the LNB cover by weekend, and know all the wiring and tweaking is finished!

G-box has me somewhat excited, and somewhat scared. I'll get the strong signals programmed in on C-band FTA so I have channels in memory to shoot-for when finding the stops in the new positioner. Hopefully the positioner talks well with the pansat and the birdview. I'd love to not have to use extra remotes to change my selections on-screen.

Already had a buddy come over interested in my two dishes and why I am into them so much lately. He has bought a new home and may be the next Birdview recipient in my area....with FTA and a DSR 410 for subs. Amazing how the hobby catches on.

Lets hope the same for continued subs on 4d!..

thanks again!!! Much appreciated. This truly IS one of the most polite and helpful (not to mention fun) 'boards on the web!

 

[Mr Tony]

OK..some food for thought (actually just some thoughts I had)....they might just be ramblings I hope I dont confuse ya.

-The Gbox will only work with Diseqc 1.2 commands (not USALS which is also called Diseqc 1.3)
-The Pansat you have to assign Diseqc 1.2 locations....between 27-49..what you do is change positioner to "Diseqc 1.2" and click OK which will put you in a submenu (see pic below)...that is where you move the dish and select the location
-The sats that have both C& KU you'd have to set up both sats (a C one and a KU one) with the same location
-Best thing to do is on a piece of paper write down 27 through 49. Use your true south sat (same as your longitude) as 27. Go across the arc and write each sat in the next ones....which brings me to another issue.
-There's more than 23 sats across the arc. Some are C only (131, 133,135, 137) and some are KU only (74, 85)..but there are some sats that have nothing on them or nothing I personally would use (Satmex sats for example)
-I guess you could set up all the C-Band sats you want first then after that move the dish to the sat and set up KU. Remember to set up Diseqc 1.2 for the same location. So as example if you use 91W as location 33 both G17-C and G17 (or however you have them labeled) would be position 33.

 

[radio]

Read the info quickly. Will digest on Friday, and report back. Sounds very "do-able" with due attention to the details.

This new FTA hobby which has re-kindled my love of satellite technology certainly starts to consume one's time and thoughts! I may have to start a short FTA feature on my radio show.......there's got to be others that would enjoy "playing."

ON that note, two good friends of mine are licensed, legal, enthusiastic amateur radio operators, and they tell me that there is also a time and a way to use certain satellites at certain times to bounce amateur signals around the globe. Didn't yet see a thread here on that, but...want to learn more from them, or anyone else. Perhaps another opportunity for the site.

I may just have to go "amateur" soon.....

 

[radio]

It's really up to you how you want to use the diseqc switch. Me personally would use port 1 as C and port 2 as KU. Or since there is a 22k switch built in to the LNB you wouldnt need a diseqc switch (unless you are hooking more than 2 things to that switch). You will need to set up diseqc on ALL sats that you use.

Would you recommend using the built-in 22khz at the LNBF and one cable "in" to the receiver? I was under the impression that these had some issues, and a dual feed with inside switch was better, but...using the "built-in" (22khz switch) would free up another cable into the RV for future use on another signal source! Sounds like I need to take some time, too..and learn how to get the Ku feed up and running!

 

[Mr Tony]

if you already ran 2 cables then you could do the diseqc route. I've learned that 22k switches (those built in) are sturdier than a diseqc (and being as far north as you are you get the same weather as I do ) and I havent had issues with 22k switches outside.