Frost heaving on BUD this winter...

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Cham

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I've been out to one of my Buds twice already this winter to re-level the pole... Each time it had moved maybe half a degree. Never have had to do this in the past except maybe once a month or two after initial installation. Almost no snow cover this year in my area, and lots of cold (-30 type temps), and lots of wind! Not sure if it is frost heaving or wind moving the piles around because of loose dirt-to-cement contact... It's also been VERY dry.
My setup used three piles about 10' deep (14" diameter) that stick up about a foot above the ground, using 1/2" threaded rod sticking out of the piles to attach the dish tri-pod/mast assembly. Luckily I can adjust using bushings between the mount and the pile; adding or removing bushings below each mount and then tightening up the nut again to level it.
Was out working on it last night after discovering very poor signals on some of the TPs on 97, 101, and 103 I often watch in the evenings. At least it's been a bit warmer last few days.

Anyone else having issues with frost heaving etc? Been a cold dry winter up here!
 
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wvman

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I've been out to one of my Buds twice already this winter to re-level the pole... Each time it had moved maybe half a degree. Never have had to do this in the past except maybe once a month or two after initial installation. Almost no snow cover this year in my area, and lots of cold (-30 type temps), and lots of wind! Not sure if it is frost heaving or wind moving the piles around because of loose dirt-to-cement contact... It's also been VERY dry.
My setup used three piles about 10' deep (14" diameter) that stick up about a foot above the ground, using 1/2" threaded rod sticking out of the piles to attach the dish tri-pod/mast assembly. Luckily I can adjust using bushings between the mount and the pile; adding or removing bushings below each mount and then tightening up the nut again to level it.
Was out working on it last night after discovering very poor signals on some of the TPs on 97, 101, and 103 I often watch in the evenings. At least it's been a bit warmer last few days.

Anyone else having issues with frost heaving etc? Been a cold dry winter up here!
I never used a 3 pile configuration to mount a dish. Always poured a single slab 3x3x3 foot slab with an 18 inch deep kicker hole in the bottom center of the hole. Never had one move on account of ground freeze. In order to be sure, your pad needs to be well below the frost line in order to remain in place. I can't imagine a 10" deep pilon moving in -30 degree weather. Perhaps there's one of them broke part way down causing it to move. Did you pour them or did you use someone elses handiwork? If you poured them, did you put rebar inside the concrete for strength?

Is there a possibility that you have an anchor loose in the concrete? At this point, it could be a number of things causing it to move.
 

Cham

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The anchors and piles are fine, but like I said it's been extremely dry here, about an inch of rain last 12 months (and maybe 4-5" snow) and lots of wind and cold weather this winter. We usually get 24-30" of rain and 2-3ft snow, and the dryness has caused the clay soil to contract away from foundations and... piles... The lack of snow means frost goes deeper than normal too, so my guess is that it might actually be as deep now as the piles go.

I do have two Ku dishes mounted on a flat slab about 4' square and about a foot deep on one mast. I do usually have to adjust the mast in the winter and again in the spring when the frost comes out, and also if we get a lot of wet weather in the summer. Just normal maintenance. Nothing is "stable" in this heavy clay soil that freezes and thaws!
 

wvman

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The anchors and piles are fine, but like I said it's been extremely dry here, about an inch of rain last 12 months (and maybe 4-5" snow) and lots of wind and cold weather this winter. We usually get 24-30" of rain and 2-3ft snow, and the dryness has caused the clay soil to contract away from foundations and... piles... The lack of snow means frost goes deeper than normal too, so my guess is that it might actually be as deep now as the piles go.

I do have two Ku dishes mounted on a flat slab about 4' square and about a foot deep on one mast. I do usually have to adjust the mast in the winter and again in the spring when the frost comes out, and also if we get a lot of wet weather in the summer. Just normal maintenance. Nothing is "stable" in this heavy clay soil that freezes and thaws!
We have had an enormous amount of rain this winter. We just came out of a flood situation that left me without access to my house on two of the three roads that lead to my house. Before that, we came out of a two week period where temperatures dropped to -15, and just above zero for another week. Right now, it's 69 degrees outside, with an expected temperature of 76 degrees later today.

I planted 2 new poles last fall, making a 2x2 hole, three foot deep with a hole in the center. I took the post hole diggers and went another 2 feet deep the size of the post hole diggers for a kicker foot. The pole is about 5 foot in the ground, which helps ground the system and keeps the wind from upsetting the pole. It will bend before upsetting. The ground here is very hard and rocky. I've used this method for years and never had a pole move.

I'm no expert on frost lines, but I can't imagine frost reaching down to 10 feet, even with very dry dirt. Just my opinion, My water line to the house is only 16 inches deep due to the rock shelf I live on and I've never had a frozen water line to the house. But like I said, I'm no authority on frost penetration. :)
 

Cham

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Up here water lines have to be at least 8ft deep, more under roadways etc where frost can go even deeper. City north of me is having a lot of water main breaks this winter, more than normal, also due to cold and lack of snow cover. Many of the breaks are due to ground movment/heaving rather than water actually freezing in the lines.

Back to topic; I do have two C-band dishes "temporarity" mounted on railway ties sort of like skids. The ties lay horizontally and are mostly buried in the soil. These dishes are both about 8' diameter so not as much windload as the 10-footer. They have been quite stable considering the hap-hazard installation, but they do need adjustments once in a while. One is a light spun aluminum dish, the other a heavy offset CM dish, both stationary, the latter pointed at 127W for NASA channel. The aluminum dish has a long F/D so I use it for a multi-feed on 91, 99, and 107.
 

wvman

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Up here water lines have to be at least 8ft deep, more under roadways etc where frost can go even deeper. City north of me is having a lot of water main breaks this winter, more than normal, also due to cold and lack of snow cover. Many of the breaks are due to ground movment/heaving rather than water actually freezing in the lines.

Back to topic; I do have two C-band dishes "temporarity" mounted on railway ties sort of like skids. The ties lay horizontally and are mostly buried in the soil. These dishes are both about 8' diameter so not as much windload as the 10-footer. They have been quite stable considering the hap-hazard installation, but they do need adjustments once in a while. One is a light spun aluminum dish, the other a heavy offset CM dish, both stationary, the latter pointed at 127W for NASA channel. The aluminum dish has a long F/D so I use it for a multi-feed on 91, 99, and 107.
Wow, I had no idea frost could penetrate so deep into the ground. I'm a lot further south than you, and we've never had to deal with frost lines like you have. I thought about using ties once, but decided against it. I use 31/2 O.D. schedule 80 1/2 inch wall drill pipe for my poles. You'll bust a gut lifting them into the hole, but they don't bend. I'm fortunate being in heart of the oil & gas industry, so the pipe is readily available here.

I know so many people in the industry, I rarely dole outany cash for a piece. Pays to know people. :) I'd be in picker heaven if we had dishes sitting around like in your area. I drove 156 miles last weekend looking for wire mesh dishes and never saw a one. Plenty of fiberglass models. I've been up every holler in 3 counties looking for them. Aluminum is a big temptation around here. The scrappers have just about stripped the area clean of any metals.

A couple years ago, these guys were going around cutting down copper lines along the railroad to sell for scrap. Last year, one idiot got electrocuted trying to cut down a power line. They can't do anything with the fiberglass dish, so they don't bother with them. 8300 volts isn't kind to anything that gets into it.
 
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Cham

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At least here the frost eventually melts.. Not far north it does not. Permafrost must be a nightmare to deal with. Almost impossible to build anything on without special mediation to keep it frozen and stable.

We have heard of people stealing copper from power substations here too... especially grounding conductors. Interesting what happens when a 14.4kVac circuit makes a connection to the ground through the fellow holding the hacksaw. Not pretty. We call it a Darwin award...
 
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wvman

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At least here the frost eventually melts.. Not far north it does not. Permafrost must be a nightmare to deal with. Almost impossible to build anything on without special mediation to keep it frozen and stable.

We have heard of people stealing copper from power substations here too... especially grounding conductors. Interesting what happens when a 14.4kVac circuit makes a connection to the ground through the fellow holding the hacksaw. Not pretty. We call it a Darwin award...
Sometimes the Darwin Award is well earned. Getting electrocuted in the commission of a crime is justice in action. I can't imagine building anything on permafrost. Has to be a nightmare to deal with. Glad I don't have to deal with it. It made it to 82 degrees here today. I love it, but I know the fruit trees will start to bud, and the temperature will drop again, killing the fruit crops. I haven't had a peach or apple crop in five years. :(
 
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