Ghosting=Bad built in multi-switch?

[Xagoth]

A couple weeks ago I installed a new triple LNB dish with a built in multi-switch from Best Buy.

I have one TV in the living room on an HD box. I have another TV in the basement on a DVR box.

All of my signals are in the 80's and 90's except a few. Lowest is 78 currently.

Problem is, I have ghosting. On BOTH TV's. Its pretty bad on some channels, not even noticeable on others.

So today, thinking that maybe the quad shield Rg6 I bought was bad, I replaced it to the living room tv. Made one line directly from the dish to the reciever. No change at all.

The only thing the two TV's have in common is the dish. Are the dishes with the built in multi switches just crap? Is there something I am just forgetting to check?

Thinking of just taking back the Best Buy one and picking up the Circuit City one. CC one is 40 bucks more, although they look identical. Anyone know if there is any difference in the CC and BB one other than just 40 bucks?

Also, probably a stupid question...are the masts on the dishes universal in that I can just unbolt the old one and bolt in the new one? The holes will all line up?

 

[ShadowEKU]

New to DBS?

The Switch is NOT causing the problem. if it was blocking up or losing signal ide say your dish wasnt aimed right.

Fact is with digital transmission basicly you either get it or not.. there is no ghosting on channels. Sounds like something is wrong with the receivers or maybe the connection between the receiver and the TV.

If you are able to see a signal on all 3 sats then your switch is good and your cable from the dish to the receiver is good.

A good analog to digital comparison:
An analog Antenna signal if experienceing MultiPath will have bad ghosting
A digital signal will bounce all over the place and likely not lock... no ghosting


DBS is Digital and therefore there is no way ther eis ghosting unless its at the source or in the receiver/tv/connection its not the source or a lot more people would be complaining.

 

[ShadowEKU]

sorry i didnt answer the rest of your question...

generally the masts are the same size for the Phase 3 and other dishes.

One thing that i wonder about.. Holes on the mast? I dont have any holes on my mast

 

[Xagoth]

Yup, relatively new to this.

Maybe ghosting was the wrong word?

Kind of hard to describe the problem, but here goes.

A good test channel I found was National Geographic Channel. They have a small yellow box in the lower right corner of the screen at all times. So basically, I see a fuzzy clear outline of that yellow box, just to the left of that yellow box.

Whenever there is a pure white screen, I can see a 2-3 inch dark bar down the left side of the screen on both tv's. As if the main picture was being overlayed with another picture just 2-3 inches off to the right.

Again, I have checked all the connections. Replaced the cable on one tv. Using two different receivers (downstairs one is the same one I see you are using (R10 DVR)). Upstairs TV is a 52" projection, basement is a 32" CRT.

So two totally different setups getting the exact same problem.

*edit* I meant the plate attached to the mast..sorry. Again, new at this and learning.

 

[ShadowEKU]

Ill tell you it sounds like you are watching tv on a large tv with a signal optimized for a smaller screen... kinda like blowing up a picture on the computer.

Do this... tune to an HD channel on your HD tv and see if that ghosting is there at all. If its not I believe you are noticing Digital artifacting... and blocking... unfortunately there isnt much that can be done.. there are some tweaks on the tv that can fix this but you may be one of those people (like me) who notice the blocks.

The reason some channels look better than others (excluding HD) is due to the varying compression of the signal on each channel and how many channels are on each transponder and such.


generally the holes do line up.

 

[Xagoth]

Nope, no ghosting at all on HD channels.

So this is something that I am going to have to just deal with?

Guess I will get used to it, thanks alot for your time, I do appreciate the posts!

 

[uboatcmdr]

Yup, relatively new to this.

Maybe ghosting was the wrong word?

Kind of hard to describe the problem, but here goes.

A good test channel I found was National Geographic Channel. They have a small yellow box in the lower right corner of the screen at all times. So basically, I see a fuzzy clear outline of that yellow box, just to the left of that yellow box.

Whenever there is a pure white screen, I can see a 2-3 inch dark bar down the left side of the screen on both tv's. As if the main picture was being overlayed with another picture just 2-3 inches off to the right.

Again, I have checked all the connections. Replaced the cable on one tv. Using two different receivers (downstairs one is the same one I see you are using (R10 DVR)). Upstairs TV is a 52" projection, basement is a 32" CRT.

So two totally different setups getting the exact same problem.

*edit* I meant the plate attached to the mast..sorry. Again, new at this and learning.

Like Shadow said those type problems are not concurrent to a digital signal, more to an anolog signal. But the fact that you are getting them on both setups means the problem lays within a common point. Do both receivers have a third (ground) prong on their electical plugs? If so, try using a 3-2 prong converter to see if the problem clears up. Also when the new dish was installed was it grounded? Not talking about is the coax connected to a grounding block, but is the dish itself grounded via a seperate wire to either the grounding block or another grounding source? The reason I ask all this is you may be getting some sort disturbance through your electrical system via the ground.

This is a long way off topic but I got to tell you a funny story about a customer who had a similar problem. I went to his house twice to try and figure out the problem. Problem was it never occured while I was there. The second time I showed up the guy (one of those types who sweats all the time, has bloodshot eyes and looked like he was taking a trip eventhough he was at home, if you catch my drift) starts asking me if I work for the Government (used to work for NASA & the Army). Then he starts getting really upset and tells me he knows what the problem is, that I have put some sort of survailance device on his satellite line for the FBI and that he knows how to take care of spies like me. He then stormed off into the house. Well I'm sure you can guess what I did, that's right I climbed into my truck and got the heck outta there! Never did get to the bottom of what his satellite problem was, as for his personal problem, well I just think he either wasn't taking the medications he was supposed to or he was taking some medications he wasn't supposed too.

 

[ShadowEKU]

grounding wouldnt cause the problem... well not what he is seeing.

OP: Unfortunately it is what i figured what you see are called compression artifacts. As a general rule most DBS and Digital Cable systems have these issues (Digital cable only in the digital range 100+)

And again unfortunately it is kindof a deal with it situation.. however as i mentioned do a search for twaeks on how to minimize these. a good way is to turn down the sharpness and turn down contrast... it makes it look a little better. Good luck.

 

[ShadowEKU]

What Uboat said about groundign also applies it could minimize these artifacts... and well it keeps your system from being at risk... especially if the dish is ungrounded.

 

[uboatcmdr]

What Uboat said about groundign also applies it could minimize these artifacts... and well it keeps your system from being at risk... especially if the dish is ungrounded.

Last year I had a service call that three other techs had been to, none got the problem resolved they sent me because right before taking up installing I was helping a neighbor get his electrical contracting business off the ground (helped him wire a few houses over about one year). The customer could flip one or two switches in the house and the image on their living room tv would go haywire. The bedroom tv would still play fine. I tracked down the problem in about 10 minutes. They had an improperly wired GFI (ground fault interupt) outlet. The outlet was sending power to the grounding lug or that circuit. If you were standing in wet grass and touched the grounding block you got a jolt. The reason it only affected the living room receiver is that it was the only one with a 3 prong cord, and it was the only one on the same circuit as the miswired GFI. I removed the ground wire at the grounding block as a temporary fix until the electrican could come out and fix the problem. But the receiver while not going haywire anymore it was getting enough bleedover through the grounding prong that it caused the image to ghost and bleed similar to what is being described here.
My first instinct is that the color levels of the sets are too high or something in the tv settings, but the grounding thing is possible if it is interferring with not the signal coming into the receiver but that going out as in the case of the above mentioned service call. I'm not saying rush to call out an electrician, just walk around and inspect things grounding wise and flip a few switches on the same circuits (or plug into outlets on different circuits) to see if the problem goes away. If it doesn't then move on to something else.

 

[ShadowEKU]

Last year I had a service call that three other techs had been to, none got the problem resolved they sent me because right before taking up installing I was helping a neighbor get his electrical contracting business off the ground (helped him wire a few houses over about one year). The customer could flip one or two switches in the house and the image on their living room tv would go haywire. The bedroom tv would still play fine. I tracked down the problem in about 10 minutes. They had an improperly wired GFI (ground fault interupt) outlet. The outlet was sending power to the grounding lug or that circuit. If you were standing in wet grass and touched the grounding block you got a jolt. The reason it only affected the living room receiver is that it was the only one with a 3 prong cord, and it was the only one on the same circuit as the miswired GFI. I removed the ground wire at the grounding block as a temporary fix until the electrican could come out and fix the problem. But the receiver while not going haywire anymore it was getting enough bleedover through the grounding prong that it caused the image to ghost and bleed similar to what is being described here.
My first instinct is that the color levels of the sets are too high or something in the tv settings, but the grounding thing is possible if it is interferring with not the signal coming into the receiver but that going out as in the case of the above mentioned service call. I'm not saying rush to call out an electrician, just walk around and inspect things grounding wise and flip a few switches on the same circuits (or plug into outlets on different circuits) to see if the problem goes away. If it doesn't then move on to something else.

the fact that he said it didnt exist on the HD channels is the reason i say its jsut the usual compression... if it was there for them i would definitely check on the grounding. but as he decribed it and then said they werent there on the hd channels pretty well narrows it down.

 

[Xagoth]

I was actually told NOT to ground the dish or the cable because it would cause MORE artifacting.

So you are saying I should?

As far as three prongs on the receivers...yup, both are 3 prong. They are both plugged into outlets we just had installed 2 years ago when we moved into this house. The house was old and didnt have a single grounded outlet. So we contracted an electrician to install some. But I did hook up the living room box to a 3-2 prong adapater...no change.

Really, on some channels you cant even see the problem. HD is non-exisistant. The ONLY channel with the bar on the left hand side and the bad "ghosting" or artifacting is channel 32 (Fox).

 

[uboatcmdr]

I was actually told NOT to ground the dish or the cable because it would cause MORE artifacting.

So you are saying I should?

As far as three prongs on the receivers...yup, both are 3 prong. They are both plugged into outlets we just had installed 2 years ago when we moved into this house. The house was old and didnt have a single grounded outlet. So we contracted an electrician to install some. But I did hook up the living room box to a 3-2 prong adapater...no change.

Really, on some channels you cant even see the problem. HD is non-exisistant. The ONLY channel with the bar on the left hand side and the bad "ghosting" or artifacting is channel 32 (Fox).

That's one of your local correct? Like I said I have a similar problem with one of my locals. It's like the color is set too high when they start throwing a bunch of graphic on screen. You might want to try adjusting the settings on your tv sets as Shadow suggested to see if that makes a difference.
As far as grounding goes, you should ground the system. Be sure to ground the dish as well as the coax running into the house. Ground them to the meter base or an all metal cold water pipe. I have replaced too many receivers due to lightning strikes. And the problem is with HD & Tivo units we don't replace those, the customer has to send them back to the factory.

 

[Xagoth]

Ok, so how would I go about grounding?

Would I put a grounding rod in the ground, ground THAT to the meter base and then ground the dish and cables to the rod?

Pretty lost as far as grounding goes.

Honestly, thanks alot for the replies guys. Nothing worse than needing help and being a complete noob to something and people would rather berate you than help you.

 

[uboatcmdr]

Ok, so how would I go about grounding?

Would I put a grounding rod in the ground, ground THAT to the meter base and then ground the dish and cables to the rod?

Pretty lost as far as grounding goes.

Honestly, thanks alot for the replies guys. Nothing worse than needing help and being a complete noob to something and people would rather berate you than help you.

There should already be a heavy bare gound wire coming out the bottom of your meter base going to a grounding rod just below it. If not then yes you would need to put in a grounding rod (available at most home improvement stores) and run a wire from the body of the grounding base to the rod. You can hook the ground wire from the dish/coax inline grounding block to the ground wire anywhere between the meter base & the grounding rod, or you can attach it to the rod itself. One thing to note if you have your receivers connected to phone lines and there is a bad storm coming though the area, unplug those lines. I replace more units where the lightning ran in on the phone line than those there it ran in on the coax or power line.

 

[loudo]

i have the same prob with fox!!

I was actually told NOT to ground the dish or the cable because it would cause MORE artifacting.

So you are saying I should?

As far as three prongs on the receivers...yup, both are 3 prong. They are both plugged into outlets we just had installed 2 years ago when we moved into this house. The house was old and didnt have a single grounded outlet. So we contracted an electrician to install some. But I did hook up the living room box to a 3-2 prong adapater...no change.

Really, on some channels you cant even see the problem. HD is non-exisistant. The ONLY channel with the bar on the left hand side and the bad "ghosting" or artifacting is channel 32 (Fox).

i am having the same prob (noticed watching the simpsons) on my samsung reciever (not HD) and i have my dish grounded.

also have chicago locals....just not in chicago

 

[Xagoth]

Interesting...

Dont think its a coincidence we both live in Chicago area (I live about 50 miles NW of Chicago). And yeah, its VERY noticeable on animated shows like Simpsons.

Guess it is on Directv's side?

Another question...both of my recievers are on Surge Suppressors that have inputs for phone and coax. Does this ground them or are they worthless to use and just a gimmick to get people to buy THEIR surge suppressor over ones that dont have them?

 

[ShadowEKU]

Interesting...

Dont think its a coincidence we both live in Chicago area (I live about 50 miles NW of Chicago). And yeah, its VERY noticeable on animated shows like Simpsons.

Guess it is on Directv's side?

Another question...both of my recievers are on Surge Suppressors that have inputs for phone and coax. Does this ground them or are they worthless to use and just a gimmick to get people to buy THEIR surge suppressor over ones that dont have them?

They "Usually" ground the connections... but it is more of a risk. Basicly if a lightning strike did traverse the cable.. with ground blocks it would mostly stop there. With them just grounded up top (in the suppressor) then that surge goes all the way to that plug probably burning everything in its path and likely at the least destroying the suppressor. (worst case scenario) If the dish isnt grounded at all then you increase the risk of a direct strike...

 

[nytevizion]

One question, how are your TV's connected to your recievers, coax , DVI??Component, or S-video? RCA jack?...and also, are you running the coax through the surge protectors in some way?? Usually, those surge protector coax circuits are cheaply made and actually degrade signal.

Im near chicago, have Directv, HDTV and a rooftop antenna that picks up the local ota digital channels. Ive never seen a digital picture "Ghost"....Now the digital artifacts, I see all the time but that is random and constant throughout the entire picture and really noticable on large solid areas of the same color.

When I switch to analog antenna channels almost all of them ghost at the moment...

Ohh and ground all you want, its not the problem. I dont care what you do, if your dish gets hit by lightning, youre most likely done.

Back in the day, my dads antenna got hit by lightning on our house, it was grounded with heavy gauge cable, with the shortest route straight to the ground. Every TV in the house was toast, Including my atari computer which used the tv as the monitor through those cheezy antenna/game switches, which you may remember... Hell, and that was through a flat 300 Ohm paired wire, imagine a less resistant 75 ohm cable.

 

[Xagoth]

Using component cable.

And the only channel that has the problem is Fox 32 (still ghosting).

The other stuff I have come to learn definately IS artifacting!

One good way I could tell is I get CBS regular and CBS HD. I waited until I saw what I once THOUGHT was ghosting on CBS, quickly flipped to CBS HD and guess what....completely gone. So yup, just compression artifacts.

Since you also live near Chicago, you know we do get some pretty nasty thunderstorms (have actually seen lightning hit the school lightning rod across the street). So definately will be grounding everything ASAP!