HD Free For Life (reg $10)

[MikeD-C05]

I don't have the link, but there is a post in one of the many threads here with Dish's quarterly filings with the SEC that show that they make less that $5/month/per sub. So no, not an apologist, no insider information. Just public information. Dish's profit margins are below industry average, so it doesn't Jive with your greedy made up fee because they can characterization. The fees are there because they need to operate in the black to stay in business. I'm tired of arguing this. If you don't believe me, go read the quarterly filings and read it for yourself in black and white.

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I respect your opinion , I just don't agree with it. I will never think that the FEES that DISH makes up and charges is helping them to only make $5.00 per sub. The programming might only make them $5.00 per sub ,but the FEES are pure profit and are totally in their control. This is why they go up on them at will and go back on their grandfather promises for 2nd hoppers. Why else can they then offer me and others with a 2nd hopper a $5.00 credit for 18 months? Because they can, just like they can charge more and go up on their fees when it suits them.

 

[dare2be]

It's not opinion. It's fact.

 

[mike123abc]

While I don't like DISH's fees they are still better then what else is available to me.

We have 6 HDTV's in the house... for me to get a HD DVR for each TV in the house like I have now with my Hopper setups the cable company wants to charge me $17 per HD DVR. Thats $102 just for equipment fees. No thanks!

$102 dollars in fees would buy TiVos and TiVo minis pretty fast... Of course the up front costs would be high, 2 6 tuner TiVos and 4 Minis would be in order.

 

[GaryPen]

It's not opinion. It's fact.

What's fact? That Dish makes $5 per sub? And, that is only due to all of the ridiculous fees, or they'd actually lose money?

Ummmmmm. No.

 

[MikeD-C05]

It's not opinion. It's fact.

IN your opinion it's fact.

 

[MikeD-C05]

What's fact? That Dish makes $5 per sub? And, that is only due to all of the ridiculous fees, or they'd actually lose money?

Ummmmmm. No.

EXACTLY! You have to be either a DISH pom pom waiver or a very gullible person to believe that DISH is only making $5.00 off each sub , no matter how they spin it in their public released reports. Even then 14 million subs X $5.00 =70 million dollars. I've seen profit levels in the 350 million or greater in previous released reports. So all that extra money is from FEES ? Yeah , I don't feel sorry for DISH or DIRECTV or any cable provider if they are making that much off of FEES alone.

 

[dare2be]

Gawd, here we go again...who's waving the black pom-poms and throwing around ad hominems? The SEC filings are fact. Or does your opinion trump those? Maybe it's just your math fail that trumps it.

70M per MONTH x 12 = 840M/year

(sorry for the bad formatting)

Fiscal year is January-December. All values USD millions.	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012

Net Income

902.95M

635.55M

984.73M

1.52B

636.69M

Even with the one-time windfall profits from 2011, it averages out to $5.57 per month per sub.

OOPS.

 

[Tampa8]

Guys if DISH was doctoring an SEC filing that would be easily detected by now. The fees are not some form of slush fund above and beyond all other income DISH has. It's part of their total income, part of their business plan, and part of what makes up the $5 or so they make per sub. By that thinking, DIRECT TV is also somehow hiding fee revenue?

 

[dare2be]

What's fact? That Dish makes $5 per sub? And, that is only due to all of the ridiculous fees, or they'd actually lose money?

Ummmmmm. No.

See above....ummmmmmmmmm. yes.

 

[KazooGuy]

Not that I want to sound like an alarmist, however, just yesterday I found once again that I had to change my autopay status back ON. This happens almost every other month and there isn't a CSR that can explain to me why it happens. Also, just a month ago I found a receiver activated on my account that I no longer even owned! Check your bills routinely folks!

 

[MikeD-C05]

Gawd, here we go again...who's waving the black pom-poms and throwing around ad hominems? The SEC filings are fact. Or does your opinion trump those? Maybe it's just your math fail that trumps it.

70M per MONTH x 12 = 840M/year

(sorry for the bad formatting)

Fiscal year is January-December. All values USD millions.	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012

Net Income

902.95M

635.55M

984.73M

1.52B

636.69M

Even with the one-time windfall profits from 2011, it averages out to $5.57 per month per sub.

OOPS.

Very impressive in your numbers, but I will not believe the FEES are part of the $5.57 a month. Accountants can show anything they want on paper to reflect a profit of only $5.00 a sub if they choose to. Just like the heard at the legal department at DISH , I am sure they have a buttload of bean counters working over time to show what ever they need to help the company show profits and losses where they are the best for the company. Maybe if Charlie didn't have to force and respond to so many lawsuits he could make even more real profits. If the fees are so important to this $5.00 figure per sub then how can DISH ever afford to drop a fee, give out freebies or to give 18 months of $5.00 credits to 2nd hopper customers? I simply refuse to believe that they are nothing more than fees DISH creates and charges because they CAN . IF there profits are so contingent on fees alone, then they are doomed in this business. It is the very excessive FEES that are forcing people to cut the cord. The more they charge per sub , the more subs that churn or shave or cut the cord. They are literally cutting their own throats with these increases + the ever increasing programming hikes forced on all of us . Without growth in a company you stagnant and die. ADDING more FEES does not attract new subs. Charging more and more fees on the remaining subs who stay with you is not going to help grow your business. It is a recipe for the destruction of your business.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Guys if DISH was doctoring an SEC filing that would be easily detected by now. The fees are not some form of slush fund above and beyond all other income DISH has. It's part of their total income, part of their business plan, and part of what makes up the $5 or so they make per sub. By that thinking, DIRECT TV is also somehow hiding fee revenue?

Directv is guilty in making all subs pay a portion of the Nfl Sunday Ticket padded in each programming pack. Even Charlie has said as much in the past.This is why they are consistently higher than DISH on their programming packs.

 

[dangue]

Very impressive in your numbers, but I will not believe the FEES are part of the $5.57 a month. Accountants can show anything they want on paper to reflect a profit of only $5.00 a sub if they choose to. Just like the heard at the legal department at DISH , I am sure they have a buttload of bean counters working over time to show what ever they need to help the company show profits and losses where they are the best for the company. Maybe if Charlie didn't have to force and respond to so many lawsuits he could make even more real profits. If the fees are so important to this $5.00 figure per sub then how can DISH ever afford to drop a fee, give out freebies or to give 18 months of $5.00 credits to 2nd hopper customers? I simply refuse to believe that they are nothing more than fees DISH creates and charges because they CAN . IF there profits are so contingent on fees alone, then they are doomed in this business. It is the very excessive FEES that are forcing people to cut the cord. The more they charge per sub , the more subs that churn or shave or cut the cord. They are literally cutting their own throats with these increases + the ever increasing programming hikes forced on all of us . Without growth in a company you stagnant and die. ADDING more FEES does not attract new subs. Charging more and more fees on the remaining subs who stay with you is not going to help grow your business. It is a recipe for the destruction of your business.

Mike, I give up. Believe what you want since clear factual explanations do nothing to sway you. In fact, this thread is feeling a lot like PIT threads in that respect.

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[king3pj]

In some sense, he is right. I am an accountant. We have several clients who will buy equipment they don't need yet and basically do anything they can to shrink their profit. If they can shrink their profit they can shrink the amount of taxes they owe at the end of the year. If Dish is having a good year they can pour more money into R&D and try to come up with new technology. Showing $5 per customer in profit doesn't mean that's all they are making off each customer. It means that is all that is left over after executive bonuses and whatever investments they choose to make with their excess revenues. Operating income gives a better idea of how much money they make per subscriber before all the tax shelter moves are made.

Now a lot of that money they spend on R&D and things like that is necessary if they want to keep moving forward. Plus, a low net profit might be good for tax purposes but that doesn't mean that it's the best move for your shareholders. Corporations have to do a balancing act between keeping taxes down and keeping profits high enough to keep the shareholders happy. Shareholders want dividends and you need profit to pay those out.

Edit: Their operating income for the 12 month period ending September 2013 was $1.32 Billion. Now, I'm not saying that Dish is doing anything wrong here or that they are trying to hide excess income in those periods listed. If you look at the website I listed you will see that their operating income is lower than most of their competitors too. My point is that Mike is right in that companies have some wiggle room to change what their net income looks like. Saying they only make $5 per customer so they can't discount probably isn't accurate. For one thing, that average includes new customer promo pricing and other customers who are getting discounts.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Dish_Network_(DISH)/Data/Operating_Income

 

[dare2be]

In some sense, he is right. I am an accountant. We have several clients who will buy equipment they don't need yet and basically do anything they can to shrink their profit. If they can shrink their profit they can shrink the amount of taxes they owe at the end of the year. If Dish is having a good year they can pour more money into R&D and try to come up with new technology. Showing $5 per customer in profit doesn't mean that's all they are making off each customer. It means that is all that is left over after executive bonuses and whatever investments they choose to make with their excess revenues. Operating income gives a better idea of how much money they make per subscriber before all the tax shelter moves are made.

Now a lot of that money they spend on R&D and things like that is necessary if they want to keep moving forward. Plus, a low net profit might be good for tax purposes but that doesn't mean that it's the best move for your shareholders. Corporations have to do a balancing act between keeping taxes down and keeping profits high enough to keep the shareholders happy. Shareholders want dividends and you need profit to pay those out.

Edit: Their operating income for the 12 month period ending September 2013 was $1.32 Billion. Now, I'm not saying that Dish is doing anything wrong here or that they are trying to hide excess income in those periods listed. If you look at the website I listed you will see that their operating income is lower than most of their competitors too. My point is that Mike is right in that companies have some wiggle room to change what their net income looks like. Saying they only make $5 per customer so they can't discount probably isn't accurate. For one thing, that average includes new customer promo pricing and other customers who are getting discounts.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Dish_Network_(DISH)/Data/Operating_Income

So, most likely the real number is somewhere in the middle, between the 1.32B operating income and the reported net income, or between $7.85 and $5.57 per customer (less than an 8% margin). It still points to the fact that without their fees, they would be operating close to or in the red. Bringing up new customer promos and discounts is pointless, as that is still part of the cost of doing business. I for one would rather the fees reflect the different levels of hardware usage than have all that money absorbed into higher programming prices for all. Just as companies hide their true income for filing/SEC purposes, they also hide their true prices to consumers to make their product look more attractive to their customers. If one company didn't do it, the rest of their competition would destroy them.

 

[king3pj]

So, most likely the real number is somewhere in the middle, between the 1.32B operating income and the reported net income, or between $7.85 and $5.57 per customer (less than an 8% margin). It still points to the fact that without their fees, they would be operating close to or in the red. Bringing up new customer promos and discounts is pointless, as that is still part of the cost of doing business.

I agree, discounts are part of doing business. People were asking how they could discount if they were only making $5 per customer in net income. The reason I mentioned that is because that $5 per customer is an average that includes all the customers who are getting discounted pricing. The number would be higher than that for people who are paying full price now.

 

[Teehar]

Which begs another question.Just what would Dish's profit margin be,if not for all the lawsuits?I wonder if there would be someway to get a halfway accurate figure on it?Tivo,Voom/Amc,Espn/Disney,all of those have cost a lot of money.

 

[hurricane87]

I cancelled dish the other day (I think I'm going to come crawling back) and they sent me an e-mail saying they'll give me free hd for life (as well as many other things) if I come back. Sounds like they still offer this under the correct circumstances.

 

[dvrexpander]

A local TV station here is advertising a long ad during the news casts from a retailer for Dish, I complained cause they were still showing HD free for life on it and they responded back saying they had removed it and contacted them over it. I watched the station this evening and the ad ran but they removed that part of it lol

 

[navychop]

king3pj: A few of the boys from the AICPA will be paying you a visit. Best to go quietly......