HD Picture Quality

P

primetimeguy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 4, 2006
1,003
39
St. Paul, MN
That is what I was saying. If you are seeing a picture that is worth complaining about at a full 10 feet, then you should get it checked out because, on my end, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the picture at that distance.

On a 50" screen. Personally, I feel the biggest reason for the varying complaints is screen size, viewing distance and TV settings (sharpness especially).

If I sit 13ft from my 57" things look pretty darn good on Dish, but I don't want to sit that far away. I have a buddy with a projector and 110" screen. Watching Dish on that turned me away from going with a projector.
 
A

avp

Active SatelliteGuys Member
Oct 26, 2003
18
0
For the people who say they don't see it I envy you.
Those of us who do know what we are seeing, its a curse.
If you do Broadcast for a living then your eyes are conditioned to see the imperfections. They are there.
Not every ones eyes sees the same thing.
With digital compression it is just a fact of life.
You can argue this forever!
But never take the attitude "because I don't see it it does
not exist."
Maybe this topic would end if you could compare real studio monitors next to yours.
 
S

--sexy-warlock--

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 8, 2009
489
0
Chattanooga
I'm not saying the imperfections are not there. I am stating that at 10' on my 50" screen the imperfections are not perceivable on most all HD content from Dish. If the source is good, then it looks like viewing a BD from a couple of feet away.

I only sit 6.5 feet away, however, and it bugs the hell out of me how messy and fuzzy the IQ is with Dish. It leaves a lot to be desired.

In other words, read the thread before making an uninformed generalized statement .
 
aaronc

aaronc

SatelliteGuys Family
Oct 25, 2006
77
5
Dayton,OH
I sit 12' from my Panasonic 65" plasma, and the PQ for HD is terrible. I am scheduling a service call soon. I have good signal strength, & have also ran a new RG6 quad shield 3ghz sweep tested coax cable to my Vip622. If it's not a compression issue, it has to be my dvr or lnb problems. I may just get rid of Dish and go OTA.
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
Broadcast

For the people who say they don't see it I envy you.
Those of us who do know what we are seeing, its a curse.
If you do Broadcast for a living then your eyes are conditioned to see the imperfections. They are there.
Not every ones eyes sees the same thing.
With digital compression it is just a fact of life.
You can argue this forever!
But never take the attitude "because I don't see it it does
not exist."
Maybe this topic would end if you could compare real studio monitors next to yours.

I've just left a facility in which none of the monitors could do as well as what I have at home. So are you work for a location that has broadcast monitors at work that show the problems? I think you also have to think about the fact that if it's in house that you are seeing on these monitors it has had very little processing. This would also be an even tougher comparison than E* to Blu Ray.
 
mike123abc

mike123abc

Too many cables
Supporting Founder
Sep 25, 2003
24,276
3,188
Norman, OK
I have a $3,500.00 t.v. and just got rid of Cox Cable and lost all of my DVR'd movies and programs thinking that Dish was going to give me comparable HD quality and it doesn't. It didn't even cross my mind that the HD compression would be terrible compared to Cox. I actually thought that Dish would have better HD quality...and I was wrong. Don't tell me I'm complaining just to be annoying. I'm tied into a 2 year contract with what appears to be inferior picture quality.

I've never seen any compression artifacts on any Blu-ray. I suppose I've seen noise that is a result of the film transfer, but that is a completely different matter than compression.

Cable companies usually have far less compression on their HD channels. In fact many have no extra compress from the original source. This is why cable companies tend to have fewer HD channels than DBS. DBS plays games like recompressing the picture from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 and using statistical multiplexing to squeeze more channels in. Real time MPEG-4 conversion will degrade the picture, this is before cutting bit rates unrealistically low. Cable can simply pass through the MPEG-2 as is.

Essentially an "ideal" cable plant can carry 250 to 300 HD channels, each in full 19mbit bit rate without breaking a sweat. The problem that cable has though is that they dedicated so much of their bandwidth to analog channels. Each analog channel takes up more than 2 HD channels. This is why many cable companies are shrinking their analog portion.

Another problem that cable companies face is that the plant was not set up with much bandwidth. A new cable system could have 1GHZ (or more), but most have 750MHZ or 500MHZ setups. They have to upgrade everything along the way to carry the higher bandwidth (frequencies). Big city cable plants are being upgraded since they are the easiest. Most have fiber backbones, so they can roll out fixes to all the neighborhood boxes.
 
P

primetimeguy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 4, 2006
1,003
39
St. Paul, MN
Actually cable does the same thing by crammming to many channels into one QAM. Both Comcast and Chater in my area started this 2 years agoand was why I switched to Dish.
 
T

TigerpounceTN

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 22, 2009
505
2
Knoxville, TN
Cable will also go with MPEG4 in the future. It is much more efficient than MPEG2. There are also a growing number of channels, such as Food Network and HBO that distribute in MPEG4. Recompression is not just a satellite game.
 
J

JohnDillinger

Active SatelliteGuys Member
Dec 8, 2009
21
0
California
and even though I gave LEGIT examples of proof that as long as you have enough signal the picture is the same he resorts to flaming me.

For fun last night I brought up PBS HD that is available. Had a 70 quality on the Coolsat 8000 (FTA receiver). Moved the dish off a little bit and the signal went down to 36 but the picture stayed the same (pretty damn crisp) :)

by the way....the Bucky/Cal Poly game that Big10 is showing right now looks frickin awesome on the original signal...a sweet 34 signal quality yet the picture is STUNNING!!!

I don't know what the big deal is with regards to signal integrity and getting the best picture but I am getting 119-120's on my Signal and my HD is just about perfect!

However with some channels (with lower bit rates) I do see tiny blocks of pixelation with fast moving content...

3000 Miles to Graceland was on (in HD) last night, and the fast scenes weren't as sharp, and seemed to suffer from this pixelation...My Plasma has no detectable motion blur.
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
Say what

I don't know what the big deal is with regards to signal integrity and getting the best picture but I am getting 119-120's on my Signal and my HD is just about perfect!

However with some channels (with lower bit rates) I do see tiny blocks of pixelation with fast moving content...

3000 Miles to Graceland was on (in HD) last night, and the fast scenes weren't as sharp, and seemed to suffer from this pixelation...My Plasma has no detectable motion blur.

119 to 120 SS what the F are you using for a dish? Do you have amplifiers in line. I've never heard of anyone getting that high of a reading. I have a .9 meter dishes on 129 and the highest it runs is 85. At those levels I would be near worry of over loading the input.
 
M

Mr Tony

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
328
78
Mankato, MN
I don't know what the big deal is with regards to signal integrity and getting the best picture but I am getting 119-120's on my Signal and my HD is just about perfect!

I call BS as the meter wont go that high anymore. I had a 36" dish installed for a member here for 61.5 and I could max at 90 on the signal
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
Kinda thought so

I knida thought that he was full o it with that kind of signal readings. Although that would be a wet dream for higdefjeff. :D
 
J

JohnDillinger

Active SatelliteGuys Member
Dec 8, 2009
21
0
California
I call BS as the meter wont go that high anymore. I had a 36" dish installed for a member here for 61.5 and I could max at 90 on the signal


119 to 120 SS what the F are you using for a dish? Do you have amplifiers in line. I've never heard of anyone getting that high of a reading. I have a .9 meter dishes on 129 and the highest it runs is 85. At those levels I would be near worry of over loading the input.

I made an obvious noob mistake and thought the Satellites (119, 110, 129) were the signal strengths, oops:eek:

I'm looking at *g* and the signal is just a green bar?
I didn't mean to intentionally say that, I completely misread the numbers.

When I Press *details* I see a screen with orbital information, and numbers ranging from 69-73, is this it?

On another note, you people are so damn serious it's pretty F-in sad to see people get so pissed over something that is so trivial to begin with.


Iceberg: If the signal won't go higher than say 90....WTF is your problem dude?
It is obvious that if the signal won't go that high on a standard dish installation such as mine, then obviously the numbers I stated are/were wrong.

No need to call *BS*
It's as if you think I had some intent to mislead people or lie about my signal intentionally to uh, "look cool?" Right.:rolleyes:



And Whatchel, I'm really beginning to think that most of the membership here (including you) is/are a bunch of elitist pricks with nothing better to do than to *school* people just
because you may know more than some that are here to learn something and post/hang out.
ProTip: (If the preceding statement offends you? YOU ARE an elitist prick with nothing better to do than to show how tough you are over the internet!)


-Clearly you're tact abilities SUCK at best.
"Calling out" new members as trolls (so Farking 3rd grade mentality)
-Making fun of people's screen names (so farking petty)

Thank your god this forum doesn't have requisites like:
being tact, grammar, syntax and deductive reasoning....
 
Last edited:
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
Troll again huh

I made an obvious noob mistake and thought the Satellites (119, 110, 129) were the signal strengths, oops:eek:

I'm looking at *g* and the signal is just a green bar?
I didn't mean to intentionally say that, I completely misread the numbers.

When I Press *details* I see a screen with orbital information, and numbers ranging from 69-73, is this it?

On another note, you people are so damn serious it's pretty F-in sad to see people get so pissed over something that is so trivial to begin with.


Iceberg: If the signal won't go higher than say 90....WTF is your problem dude?
It is obvious that if the signal won't go that high on a standard dish installation such as mine, then obviously the numbers I stated are/were wrong.

No need to call *BS*
It's as if you think I had some intent to mislead people or lie about my signal intentionally to uh, "look cool?" Right.:rolleyes:



And Whatchel, I'm really beginning to think that most of the membership here (including you) is/are a bunch of elitist pricks with nothing better to do than to *school* people just
because you may know more than some that are here to learn something and post/hang out.
ProTip: (If the preceding statement offends you? YOU ARE an elitist prick with nothing better to do than to show how tough you are over the internet!)


-Clearly you're tact abilities SUCK at best.
"Calling out" new members as trolls (so Farking 3rd grade mentality)
-Making fun of people's screen names (so farking petty)

Thank your god this forum doesn't have requisites like:
being tact, grammar, syntax and deductive reasoning....

I laugh at your silly statements; nit nit. Elitist pig oink oink. Did the noob get his feelings hurt silly man :D:haha Stick around and you too can become elitist as well. You really are funny now that I know you weren't just a troll here to stir up trouble. Besides I apologized for that and you still have not gotten over it. Grow a pair and get over it. Some days you will get chided some days you will get praised hang around and have a bit of fun as we make mistakes too. School's out now children! :haha:haha:haha
 
highdefjeff

highdefjeff

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 20, 2006
615
1
St. Louis
You bolded it, so you apparently think it's key. We have transmitters and receivers. The transmitter at Dish sends a signal to the receiver on the satellite, the satellite then transmits that signal to your receiver at home. Disagree so far?

Now, when the signal is encapsulated for transmission, there's certain parameters used (FEC & Data rate among them). The receiver then uses those parameters to see the signal. Now, according to you (what YOU highlighted in bold), the data rate changes with a lower signal to noise ratio. Now, as this transmission is going across the country, to millions(?) of receivers, can you explain how ONE receiver with a bad signal will somehow indicate to the transmitter the data rate needs to be changed? Keep in mind ALL the other receivers across the country would then have to change THEIR data rates to match what is transmitted.

Dear Sam,

You ask me to explain "how ONE receiver with a bad signal will somehow indicate to the transmitter the data rate needs to be changed?"

I can’t because that's not how it works. The satellite doesn't vary from its "pre-set" parameters, just as you said.

The receiver doesn't tell the satellite to slow down the data rate. The data rate slows down in the reception processing due to low and compromised signal. The slow down occurs in your receiver according to the quality of your received signal.

But herein lies the understanding, and is the whole point. Let me try again to break it down using the same article you questioned.

First, a "communications channel" in wireless transmission is composed of three basic parts: the transmitter, the sent signal, and the receiver.

This article is talking about WIRELESS transmission. The SNR and BER that are discussed are being measured at the receiving end; at your receiver. (Remember the Rf front end?) And, as stated:

In general, the higher the SNR, the fewer the errors in the channel transmission; or simply stated, as the SNR increases, the BER decreases. Conversely, as the SNR decreases, the BER will increase, at which point the communications channel typically reduces the data rate…
Asset Tracking in Industrial Settings?A Review of Wireless Technologies Part 1: The Basics | Sensors Magazine

So, as SNR decreases, BER increases, and the rate of data transfer reduces, or slows. The rate of data transfer is also called the bit rate. As SNR goes down, so does the bit rate.

Errors that occur in the signal stream of a data communications channel reduce the rate of data transfer on the receiving end. On the transmitting end the sending rate doesn't change. It is the receiving rate that is variable in our case.



Low SNR causes reduced data rates. The rate of digital data transfer is called the bit rate. When the bit rate slows we call it lower bit rate. Faster bit rate is called higher bit rate.

The article follows up with an example of what happens to a channel with poor SNR.

For example, as a 5.8 GHz signal's SNR is degraded, the channel will tend to remain operational, albeit at a reduced data rate.

The channel will TEND to remain operational but it will operate at a lower bit rate (reduced data rate).And further the article says:


"Notice that as the SNR decreases, there is a graceful degradation, or roll-off, in channel performance." (Graceful degradation means that it is no longer "all-or-nothing" but instead there is continued operation as the quality degrades with the SNR. Prior to 2005 it WAS all-or-nothing. Since MPEG2 and especially MPEG4, things have changed and no one has bothered to tell us.)
And we understand the relationship of digital picture quality as it relates to bit rate, which is:

Higher bit rate = higher quality, and lower bit rate = lower quality

Since lower SNR causes lower bit rate in digital systems, and since
Lower bit rate causes lower picture quality, then
Lower SNR causes lower picture quality.

The fact that this (slow data) is happening at your receiver is why so many people are seeing different quality of the same content sent from Dish (or any provider). The biggest difference in picture quality, as reported by Dish customers, is caused by the difference in the attention to detail of the installation.

While there are some artifacts that are in the signal being sent, the signal is affected by atmospheric and other noise influences along the way. Once the signal arrives at the dish, system performance and picture quality are then affected by:


Signal strength at the dish (Signal power)
vs.
Noise generated by the quality of installation (Noise power)


The ratio of signal power to noise power is called the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

The best way to lessen noise sources is to keep the manageable ones (connections, wiring, grounding) to a minimum by carefully following instructions during installation.


The best way to overcome noise sources is to maximize signal reception at the dish.



In a digital system, the whole idea is to preserve signal integrity throughout the COMPLETE signal path to achieve the desired performance.
 
M

Mr Tony

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
328
78
Mankato, MN
I made an obvious noob mistake and thought the Satellites (119, 110, 129) were the signal strengths, oops:eek:
no problem

When I Press *details* I see a screen with orbital information, and numbers ranging from 69-73, is this it?
sounds about right

Iceberg: If the signal won't go higher than say 90....WTF is your problem dude?
It is obvious that if the signal won't go that high on a standard dish installation such as mine, then obviously the numbers I stated are/were wrong.
chill homefries. Just stating that no way the meter would go that high anymore. I dont have a problem...just stating a fact.

No need to call *BS*
It's as if you think I had some intent to mislead people or lie about my signal intentionally to uh, "look cool?" Right.:rolleyes:
ya never know. Always Wrong Jeff seems to say you need a higher signal for a cleaner picture which is BS ;)

And Whatchel, I'm really beginning to think that most of the membership here (including you) is/are a bunch of elitist pricks with nothing better to do than to *school* people just
because you may know more than some that are here to learn something and post/hang out.
ProTip: (If the preceding statement offends you? YOU ARE an elitist prick with nothing better to do than to show how tough you are over the internet!)
yep we're all elitists here :rolleyes:

-Clearly you're tact abilities SUCK at best.
"Calling out" new members as trolls (so Farking 3rd grade mentality)
-Making fun of people's screen names (so farking petty)

Thank your god this forum doesn't have requisites like:
being tact, grammar, syntax and deductive reasoning....

shows you obviously are trolling.....and flaming is not tolerated here. :)
 
M

Mr Tony

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
328
78
Mankato, MN
In a digital system, the whole idea is to preserve signal integrity throughout the COMPLETE signal path to achieve the desired performance.

wrong yet again

In a digital world its all or nothing. So if you have a 40 signal or a 90 signal the picture is the same. Right now I am flipping between 2 different sources of a Big10 basketball game
-one is Shaw Direct. Right now I am using a 1.2 meter dish for it and getting a ebno of +9.9....threshold is +3.0 on the SHaw Motorola receivers. The picture looks good but there is a degraded picture due to compression. Fuzziness and when you get near the TV you can see microblocking
-other is the source feed that Big 10 is beaming up. Watching it via the Coolsat 8000 HD FTA receiver. quality right now is a 29-31 which compared to other channels on the satellite they are transmitting from is pretty low. Other feeds are around 70-75 with some maxing the meter at 99. Threshold on the CS8K is around 25 or so...The picture is STUNNING. Why? No compression whatsoever. Even with the low signal the picture looks better than the Shaw Direct feed which has a larger than stock dish (way larger).

Now if we're talking analog then yes you would need a better signal to not have sparklies. I still see some sparklies on my analog C-Band channels and my dish is tuned properly. I just need a bigger dish for those ;)
 
M

Mr Tony

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
328
78
Mankato, MN
I knida thought that he was full o it with that kind of signal readings. Although that would be a wet dream for higdefjeff. :D

it still is. He thinks Dish is using the meter from 2005 when spotbeams pegged at 125 and most TP's were 110-112 or so ;)
 
MikeInAlaska

MikeInAlaska

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 31, 2009
189
4
Wasilla, AK
I get the same channels on multiple transponders. Some are very weak (but locked and steady), some are very, very strong. The pictures are identical. Until it snows. Then, the weak channel macroblocks and loses the signal completely.
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
48
Great High Plains
wrong again

Dear Sam,

You ask me to explain "how ONE receiver with a bad signal will somehow indicate to the transmitter the data rate needs to be changed?"

I can’t because that's not how it works. The satellite doesn't vary from its "pre-set" parameters, just as you said.

The receiver doesn't tell the satellite to slow down the data rate. The data rate slows down in the reception processing due to low and compromised signal. The slow down occurs in your receiver according to the quality of your received signal.

But herein lies the understanding, and is the whole point. Let me try again to break it down using the same article you questioned.

First, a "communications channel" in wireless transmission is composed of three basic parts: the transmitter, the sent signal, and the receiver.

This article is talking about WIRELESS transmission. The SNR and BER that are discussed are being measured at the receiving end; at your receiver. (Remember the Rf front end?) And, as stated:

In general, the higher the SNR, the fewer the errors in the channel transmission; or simply stated, as the SNR increases, the BER decreases. Conversely, as the SNR decreases, the BER will increase, at which point the communications channel typically reduces the data rate…
Asset Tracking in Industrial Settings?A Review of Wireless Technologies Part 1: The Basics | Sensors Magazine

So, as SNR decreases, BER increases, and the rate of data transfer reduces, or slows. The rate of data transfer is also called the bit rate. As SNR goes down, so does the bit rate.

Errors that occur in the signal stream of a data communications channel reduce the rate of data transfer on the receiving end. On the transmitting end the sending rate doesn't change. It is the receiving rate that is variable in our case.



Low SNR causes reduced data rates. The rate of digital data transfer is called the bit rate. When the bit rate slows we call it lower bit rate. Faster bit rate is called higher bit rate.

The article follows up with an example of what happens to a channel with poor SNR.

For example, as a 5.8 GHz signal's SNR is degraded, the channel will tend to remain operational, albeit at a reduced data rate.

The channel will TEND to remain operational but it will operate at a lower bit rate (reduced data rate).And further the article says:


"Notice that as the SNR decreases, there is a graceful degradation, or roll-off, in channel performance." (Graceful degradation means that it is no longer "all-or-nothing" but instead there is continued operation as the quality degrades with the SNR. Prior to 2005 it WAS all-or-nothing. Since MPEG2 and especially MPEG4, things have changed and no one has bothered to tell us.)
And we understand the relationship of digital picture quality as it relates to bit rate, which is:

Higher bit rate = higher quality, and lower bit rate = lower quality

Since lower SNR causes lower bit rate in digital systems, and since
Lower bit rate causes lower picture quality, then
Lower SNR causes lower picture quality.

The fact that this (slow data) is happening at your receiver is why so many people are seeing different quality of the same content sent from Dish (or any provider). The biggest difference in picture quality, as reported by Dish customers, is caused by the difference in the attention to detail of the installation.

While there are some artifacts that are in the signal being sent, the signal is affected by atmospheric and other noise influences along the way. Once the signal arrives at the dish, system performance and picture quality are then affected by:


Signal strength at the dish (Signal power)
vs.
Noise generated by the quality of installation (Noise power)


The ratio of signal power to noise power is called the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

The best way to lessen noise sources is to keep the manageable ones (connections, wiring, grounding) to a minimum by carefully following instructions during installation.


The best way to overcome noise sources is to maximize signal reception at the dish.



In a digital system, the whole idea is to preserve signal integrity throughout the COMPLETE signal path to achieve the desired performance.

There is just too much crap here to even bother trying to answer.
 

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