HD Picture Quality

S

--sexy-warlock--

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 8, 2009
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It's far from ok, but at 10 feet there is nothing to complain about with the IQ. At 6.5-7 feet that I sit it leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm stating the facts, not trying to make Dish look better than the crap they mostly pass to us.
 
Jim S.

Jim S.

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes
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And at 1 foot, the best BD will indeed have noise and compression artifacts on any television set. You're just complaining to be an annoying voice. :up

ATSC specifies up to 1920x1080 pixels, and unlike NTSC where the chroma resolution was compromised to make the signal fit the same bandwidth as a monochrome signal, every one of those pixels is allowed to have a unique color at any given time. Obviously, compression must still be introduced to make the data stream fit a manageable bandwidth. But to address your statement specifically: I've seen very few Blu-Ray discs that don't look dramatically better than good NTSC. On the other hand, I've seen quite a few Dish HD channels that look only slightly better, if any better at all, than good NTSC. (Remember, much if not all of Dish SD is much worse than good NTSC.)
 
highdefjeff

highdefjeff

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Oct 20, 2006
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St. Louis
FTP is File Transfer Protocol. We don't receive sat via WAN, LAN or Fiber and it doesn't use FTP to do it either. It might relate to the downloads we can get from E* over the net but not coming down thru sat.

Here's another link. MPEG and Multimedia Communications

Please see section 8. MPEG-4, or multimedia communications, which says:

"Even though the MPEG-4 project predates the Internet frenzy, the motivations at the basis of the project bear a high degree of similarity with some of the topics that make headlines today.
Physical network independence. In spite of the word "net" Internet has nothing to do with "network", at least not in the traditional sense of physical-layer telecommunications infrastructure. As soon as a communication link is digitised you can start using the Internet Protocol (IP) and on top of it TCP or UDP and on top of these protocols the suite of Internet Protocols, such as SMTP for mail, HTTP for the Web, FTP for file transfer etc."

What is received by your STB is digitized data that is downloaded and processed using MPEG.

And you might want to read the August 2009 issue of Broadcast Engineering Magazine. The cover article is titled "File-Based Workflows".

Here's one more link. http://www.isoc.org/inet97/proceedings/F5/F5_1.HTM#s14
 
highdefjeff

highdefjeff

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 20, 2006
615
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St. Louis
That is something that you will not see as proof. Anyone that has tuned in a sat system, or even a simple OTA antenna knows this.

What you might get is another 5 or 6 paragraph technical explanation of why he must be right, and it may or may not be related to the question you asked.

How about a couple of short quotes from the August 2009 issue of Broadcast Engineering. This article is titled "Monitoring Technology"

"In the analog monitoring model, simply watching video and audio on a monitor qualified as a sufficient monitoring strategy."

"With DTV, however, that clear understanding of cause and effect has vanished."

"...a single issue in the stream may result in a variety of behaviors."

"In the digital realm, any given symptom can come about through any number of sources. Tiling, packet loss, continuity errors, program clock reference (PCR) issues, problems with the timeline and buffer issues are among the many symptoms that might arise, and none of these form one particular problem."

Which is why it is difficult to give specific pictures, though you are all discussing the differences. The article also says:

"It is the nature of DTV that there is virtually always something technically wrong with the transport stream."

And from the article titled "Achieving high availability for video programming" it states:

"The performance of these devices (mentioned earlier in the article - including set top boxes (STB)) is cumulative, i.e., one devices impairments add to the impairments from other devices in the long winding path to the subscriber."

Further the article reads:

"...even a single lost packet or lost second can cause a user perceptible video and/or audio impairment. An errored second is any second that includes one or more lost program packets."

Which is why you need your signal meter to read a high as possible which will reduce errors to as low as possible.

Anybody getting this?
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 30, 2006
9,099
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Great High Plains
BS

Here's another link. MPEG and Multimedia Communications

Please see section 8. MPEG-4, or multimedia communications, which says:

"Even though the MPEG-4 project predates the Internet frenzy, the motivations at the basis of the project bear a high degree of similarity with some of the topics that make headlines today.
Physical network independence. In spite of the word "net" Internet has nothing to do with "network", at least not in the traditional sense of physical-layer telecommunications infrastructure. As soon as a communication link is digitised you can start using the Internet Protocol (IP) and on top of it TCP or UDP and on top of these protocols the suite of Internet Protocols, such as SMTP for mail, HTTP for the Web, FTP for file transfer etc."

What is received by your STB is digitized data that is downloaded and processed using MPEG.

And you might want to read the August 2009 issue of Broadcast Engineering Magazine. The cover article is titled "File-Based Workflows".

Here's one more link. Satellite Communications in the Global Internet: Issues, Pitfalls, and Potential

Your whole statement is irrelevant period. The key thing is E* doesn't use File Transfer Protocol via sat. They stream full time. The only possible time that they may use FTP is over broadband. That's it in a nutshell.
 
P

peano

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Aug 6, 2004
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Anybody getting this?

Nope. You don't seem to understand that except when the signal is on the edge of being lost, there will be no change in PQ. You can't see it and you can't provide screenshot proof.

I tried a 20" dish, a 26" dish and a 30" dish for HD channels on 61.5. Signal strengths went up to the mid 80s on the new meter. The picture was identical with every dish size and no matter what the signal strength. Tests were done on a 50" Kuro Pioneer.

You are wrong. Give it up.
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

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Sep 30, 2006
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Great High Plains
He doesn't

Nope. You don't seem to understand that except when the signal is on the edge of being lost, there will be no change in PQ. You can't see it and you can't provide screenshot proof.

I tried a 20" dish, a 26" dish and a 30" dish for HD channels on 61.5. Signal strengths went up to the mid 80s on the new meter. The picture was identical with every dish size and no matter what the signal strength. Tests were done on a 50" Kuro Pioneer.

You are wrong. Give it up.

He doesn't get a lot of it. Like his throwing in the FTP stuff. E* isn't sending packets down via TCP/IP at all. He seems to think you can apply 1 type of digital signal to any other and make it stick. Sorry the pasta ain't cooked an it isn't gonna stick. :D
 
M

Mr Tony

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Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
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and even though I gave LEGIT examples of proof that as long as you have enough signal the picture is the same he resorts to flaming me.

For fun last night I brought up PBS HD that is available. Had a 70 quality on the Coolsat 8000 (FTA receiver). Moved the dish off a little bit and the signal went down to 36 but the picture stayed the same (pretty damn crisp) :)

by the way....the Bucky/Cal Poly game that Big10 is showing right now looks frickin awesome on the original signal...a sweet 34 signal quality yet the picture is STUNNING!!!
 
TheKrell

TheKrell

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I'm afraid to stick my nose in here but...
I tried a 20" dish, a 26" dish and a 30" dish for HD channels on 61.5. Signal strengths went up to the mid 80s on the new meter. The picture was identical with every dish size and no matter what the signal strength.
I like this test but it really doesn't address the PQ and (no) error compensation question. What you need to do is go down in size below 18", or else figure out an attenuator of some sort for a larger dish. What you are trying to do is sit at or just over the knee where not all errors can be corrected. If there is literally no error compensation whatsoever, then you would see the picture go from perfect to the signal lost pop-up.

N.B. error correction ? error compensation
 
bthamilton

bthamilton

Member
Nov 9, 2009
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0
San Diego, Ca
At 10 feet I never see any compression artifacts on Dish unless they are showing a program that itself has a bad transfer. Maybe you need a better set?

And at 1 foot, the best BD will indeed have noise and compression artifacts on any television set. You're just complaining to be an annoying voice. :up

I have a $3,500.00 t.v. and just got rid of Cox Cable and lost all of my DVR'd movies and programs thinking that Dish was going to give me comparable HD quality and it doesn't. It didn't even cross my mind that the HD compression would be terrible compared to Cox. I actually thought that Dish would have better HD quality...and I was wrong. Don't tell me I'm complaining just to be annoying. I'm tied into a 2 year contract with what appears to be inferior picture quality.

I've never seen any compression artifacts on any Blu-ray. I suppose I've seen noise that is a result of the film transfer, but that is a completely different matter than compression.
 
whatchel1

whatchel1

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1st I've ever heard that Cox had anything better but I guess it could be so. Too bad that you feel this way since you will have to stay for another 2 yrs.
 
S

--sexy-warlock--

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 8, 2009
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Chattanooga
I have a $3,500.00 t.v. and just got rid of Cox Cable and lost all of my DVR'd movies and programs thinking that Dish was going to give me comparable HD quality and it doesn't. It didn't even cross my mind that the HD compression would be terrible compared to Cox. I actually thought that Dish would have better HD quality...and I was wrong. Don't tell me I'm complaining just to be annoying. I'm tied into a 2 year contract with what appears to be inferior picture quality.

I've never seen any compression artifacts on any Blu-ray. I suppose I've seen noise that is a result of the film transfer, but that is a completely different matter than compression.

At a normal distance of 4-xx feet you won't see any noise or compression artifacts on most all BD roms. But at 1 foot, even on Inglorious Basterds there are slight compression artifacts.

On Dish Network, at the distance I sit, I see a lot of noise, and compression artifacts on nearly all channels (the premium movie channels, and my locals are near perfect, and they have no compression artifacts that can be picked out at the seating distance) But at 10 feet, there is no visible artifacting on my Dish setup except for the RSN channels occasionally.. But it's not as bad as you are stating unless there is something wrong with your set up. You need to get it checked out because your complaining is out of the norm for what I see. :up

BTW, how close are you sitting and what is the size of your TV? I am working with a 50"
 
P

peano

SatelliteGuys Pro
Aug 6, 2004
849
0
I'm afraid to stick my nose in here but...
I like this test but it really doesn't address the PQ and (no) error compensation question. What you need to do is go down in size below 18", or else figure out an attenuator of some sort for a larger dish. What you are trying to do is sit at or just over the knee where not all errors can be corrected. If there is literally no error compensation whatsoever, then you would see the picture go from perfect to the signal lost pop-up.

N.B. error correction ? error compensation

It addresses and contradicts the claims of highdefjeff that PQ improves as signal strength increases even past the point of a solid lock.

I think we all know PQ will suffer with macro blocking and tiling just before it drops out. BUT, once the signal is above that threshold, I can have 30 signal strength or 100 signal strength and the PQ will be identical.
 
S

sam_gordon

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May 21, 2009
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Jeff- I'm sure it got "lost" in the shuffle (I'd hate to think you're avoiding questions that show you're wrong), so can you address the question I asked you?
Conversely, as the SNR decreases, the BER will increase, at which point the communications channel typically reduces the data rate (making each bit a little longer) in an attempt to reduce the number of errors in the transmission.

You bolded it, so you apparently think it's key. We have transmitters and receivers. The transmitter at Dish sends a signal to the receiver on the satellite, the satellite then transmits that signal to your receiver at home. Disagree so far?

Now, when the signal is encapsulated for transmission, there's certain parameters used (FEC & Data rate among them). The receiver then uses those parameters to see the signal. Now, according to you (what YOU highlighted in bold), the data rate changes with a lower signal to noise ratio. Now, as this transmission is going across the country, to millions(?) of receivers, can you explain how ONE receiver with a bad signal will somehow indicate to the transmitter the data rate needs to be changed? Keep in mind ALL the other receivers across the country would then have to change THEIR data rates to match what is transmitted.
 
P

primetimeguy

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 4, 2006
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St. Paul, MN
BTW, how close are you sitting and what is the size of your TV? I am working with a 50"

10ft on a 50" you may not see everything. I'm at 10ft on a 57" and many people sit 10ft from 60" or 65" sets.

That being said, comparing Blu-Ray to Dish or even OTA isn't fair as standards for the two allow Blu-Ray to have more than twice the bitrate as OTA. Blu-Ray will always look much better.

All we can really ask is they pass on what they are getting, without further reduction, which they are not. Then we can start blaming the stations and not Dish.
 
redelephants

redelephants

Thread Starter
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Nov 17, 2009
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Panhandle Florida
It's far from ok, but at 10 feet there is nothing to complain about with the IQ. At 6.5-7 feet that I sit it leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm stating the facts, not trying to make Dish look better than the crap they mostly pass to us.

That is with your setup. Obviously there are people here that see no issues, where there are some including myself that see problems. To say that at 10 feet there is nothing to complain about might be correct for yourself, however at 10 feet for other people, including myself, is a noticeable problem with what appears to be comp artifacts. Now the true question that is left unanswered is whether these comp artifacts are from bad installation, bad receiver, overcompression, or bad cabling. It is obvious to me that if everyone is not seeing the problems but some are, then to me it probally isn't overcompression? Perhaps some other issues with the actual installation. I am beginning to wonder if some of these issues are a result of a bad/leaky ground. Most of the time installers utilize the existing cabling within the house on their installs, perhaps this can cause some interference issues. With SAT power travels back through the cabling to power the LNBs where with cable, not so. I don't know but stating there is nothing wrong with DISH is a load of crap. At the end of the day these issues might not have anything to do with the broadcast signal, but perhaps a faulty installation. And that my friends is Dishnetwork's responsibility.
 
S

--sexy-warlock--

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 8, 2009
489
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Chattanooga
That is what I was saying. If you are seeing a picture that is worth complaining about at a full 10 feet, then you should get it checked out because, on my end, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the picture at that distance.
 

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