How can sat radio work almost....

[PoitNarf]

Sirius only has 2 satellites North of the Equator at any one time. They fly in a figure 8 pattern.

They are moving and you are moving. It makes it even harder to lock on to a bird.

All one must do is go back 4-5 years and read the troubles Sirius had launching the system as the satellites were so hard to lock on to and you would understand this.

If you are moving - and the satellites are moving -2 moving targets - makes the signal harder to lock on to.

It's much easier to lock onto a signal that is stationary, regardless what the PR firms will have you believe.

The effort to avoid geosync problems creates its own problems as noted above and I can drive you to exact locations in multiple cities where the Sirius repeater signal stops and another kicks in - causing a line that drops the signal everytime you cross - something that should not happen if the system worked as you noted.

I know nothing of how hard it is to keep a signal lock on geostationary vs the eliptical orbits the Sirius sats have. I'd think since the Sirius sats broadcast their signal over such a huge area that this shouldn't be that much of an issue. I'm pretty sure the radio signals light speed transmission rates aren't bothered that much by the insignificant speed relationship between my car and the orbiting satellite. As long as I have line of sight to the sat and it is broadcasting towards me that should be enough shouldn't it? I really know nothing of the in depth technical details of all of this but I'm just thinking what might be common sense.

But let's say it is harder to maintain a signal lock. You're still going to get a signal more often from the Sirius sats than the XM sats due to them being higher in the sky. Doesn't receiving any signal at all matter more than any trouble it would be locking onto that signal?

And again, if what you say is true, why does XM have many times more repeaters than Sirius does if Sirius is harder to maintain a quality sat signal to?

The effort to avoid geosync problems creates its own problems as noted above and I can drive you to exact locations in multiple cities where the Sirius repeater signal stops and another kicks in - causing a line that drops the signal everytime you cross - something that should not happen if the system worked as you noted.

I'm just guessing here in the situation that you described that a location where you would have repeaters is likely to have objects in the area blocking the sat signal. So let's say I'm driving, I have a signal from a repeater and then it drops because I am now out of range of that repeater and then shortly after I am within range of the next repeater on my route. I'm assuming that since the repeaters are in this location it's a good chance I'll have poor to zero sat signal. So repeater signal and no sat signal, to no signal at all, then to a repeater and no sat signal seems to make sense in this scenario you describe.

BTW, this thread pretty much has absolutely nothing to do with Directv anymore. Perhaps one of the mods should move this to a sat radio section of the forum?

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I know nothing of how hard it is to keep a signal lock on geostationary vs the eliptical orbits the Sirius sats have. I'd think since the Sirius sats broadcast their signal over such a huge area that this shouldn't be that much of an issue. I'm pretty sure the radio signals light speed transmission rates aren't bothered that much by the insignificant speed relationship between my car and the orbiting satellite. As long as I have line of sight to the sat and it is broadcasting towards me that should be enough shouldn't it? I really know nothing of the in depth technical details of all of this but I'm just thinking what might be common sense.

But let's say it is harder to maintain a signal lock. You're still going to get a signal more often from the Sirius sats than the XM sats due to them being higher in the sky. Doesn't receiving any signal at all matter more than any trouble it would be locking onto that signal?

And again, if what you say is true, why does XM have many times more repeaters than Sirius does if Sirius is harder to maintain a quality sat signal to?

It's not hard to keep a signal with a moving object....hmmmm.

Do you drop more cellphone calls when you are driving or standing in one place?

The problem that you have is regardless of how high the signal is, there are still dead spots all over....whether a gas station canopy or a 4 story buildings on a narrow 2 lane street. With just 2 satellites over the CONUS USA at any point, you are bound to have a signal locking issue. That's the reason they use a buffer and time codes so they can switch to another bird or repeater if possible.

I knew this stuff like the back of hand 4-5 years ago when it was being built, but honestly haven't thought about it for years as it became accepted fact. If memory serves correct (and it might not) Sirius has higher power repeaters than XM.

In other words, Sirius decided to put in less higher power repeaters. XM put in more repeaters of a lower power.

Engineering types differ on what is best - just as they did for in theory when they made XM stationary and Sirius moving.

In theory, XM felt they would have better redudancy with lower power because you had more chances for a signal if you lost one source. Sirius went with higher power because it is now known and accepted in engineering circles the satellites are harder to lock in on.

Sirius was late to the subscriber game and very slow out of the box - because the chips to keep a lock on the moving satellite were much more complicated than they thought in the lab.

Go back and read the news reports and as well as the 10Qs and stock blogs from 5 years ago and you can read all about it.

 

[clayky]

It's not hard to keep a signal with a moving object....hmmmm.

Do you drop more cellphone calls when you are driving or standing in one place?

The problem that you have is regardless of how high the signal is, there are still dead spots all over....whether a gas station canopy or a 4 story buildings on a narrow 2 lane street. With just 2 satellites over the CONUS USA at any point, you are bound to have a signal locking issue. That's the reason they use a buffer and time codes so they can switch to another bird or repeater if possible.

I knew this stuff like the back of hand 4-5 years ago when it was being built, but honestly haven't thought about it for years as it became accepted fact. If memory serves correct (and it might not) Sirius has higher power repeaters than XM.

In other words, Sirius decided to put in less higher power repeaters. XM put in more repeaters of a lower power.

Engineering types differ on what is best - just as they did for in theory when they made XM stationary and Sirius moving.

In theory, XM felt they would have better redudancy with lower power because you had more chances for a signal if you lost one source. Sirius went with higher power because it is now known and accepted in engineering circles the satellites are harder to lock in on.

Sirius was late to the subscriber game and very slow out of the box - because the chips to keep a lock on the moving satellite were much more complicated than they thought in the lab.

Go back and read the news reports and as well as the 10Qs and stock blogs from 5 years ago and you can read all about it.

I've always been curious to know how it works and it seems after 21 posts no one can agree, all I know is I've had Sirius since October '04 and it works GREAT for me. An occasional drop out here and there if I drive under alot of trees at a particular time of day, but I just drove to Florida and back and don't recall one drop out. I can't say the same for either of the 2 TV satellite services.....

 

[digiblur]

No doubt there is a market for Satellite Radio. No one is debating that. How they work technically is very clear. Their engineers even admit that they system will not work without repeaters.

Please explain to me how I just completed a 5 hour drive on several interstates, tree covered country roads, etc., and I never had one drop out. During my 5 hour drive I never went through a repeater area.

 

[PoitNarf]

Please explain to me how I just completed a 5 hour drive on several interstates, tree covered country roads, etc., and I never had one drop out. During my 5 hour drive I never went through a repeater area.

Magic!

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Please explain to me how I just completed a 5 hour drive on several interstates, tree covered country roads, etc., and I never had one drop out. During my 5 hour drive I never went through a repeater area.

Satellite is great for Interstates and long trips.

It's not great in cities.

 

[digiblur]

Satellite is great for Interstates and long trips.

It's not great in cities.

You've really got a problem with your equipment. Mine works great in the city...no repeater....and never a drop out. Even in downtown near all the large buildings.

Explain to me how I can log over 800 miles month driving around town and never have a drop out unless I'm smack dab sitting under an overpass waiting on a red light?

Give it up.... satellite radio works, people love it, and it's hear to stay.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Yep, people love it and that why they expected to make a profit in 2004, nope, 2005, nope 2006...lol...now, who knows. Subscription rates are dropping WAY off and they are cutting their estimates.

For years they said they would break even at 4 Million subs...until they got to 4 Million subs....they still have not broken even at 8 Million subs.

Problem is their cost for is rising faster than they can get subs as the easy subs have already been gotten.

Again, don't put words in my mouth.

IT DOESNT WORK WITHOUT REPEATERS and 90+ of the population is listening to REPEATERS - not satellites.

And here's my money saving tip to you - call and cancel. First they will do whatever they can reducing the monthly fee dramatically for you. Even after that, I know of 3 people that cancelled over 9 months ago and the service has never been turned off - as they want to count the radios as subs to Wall Street - which its now coming out they do.

 

[damaged]

I'm kinda siding with HDTVFanAtic on this one, I do not pretend to have an intimate knowledge of these systems, so keep that in mind while reading.

My outlook on this is that repeaters are much cheaper, short term as well as long term compared to attempting to implement a system that does not use repeaters at all, if a repeater goes bad, you send a man up a tower to repplace it (if they overlap, so much the better), no dealing with expensive self-aiming dishes, and/or more (more powerful?) satellites to make up the coverage (which would raise the cost of sat radio systems, likely adversly affecting demand, and the bottom line).

Some may say this is a 'rip' or 'BS', but the service plays on the non-commercial aspect of satellite radio, not whether or not it's a direct satellite->radio system.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[digiblur]

Again, don't put words in my mouth.

IT DOESNT WORK WITHOUT REPEATERS and 90+ of the population is listening to REPEATERS - not satellites.

And here's my money saving tip to you - call and cancel. First they will do whatever they can reducing the monthly fee dramatically for you. Even after that, I know of 3 people that cancelled over 9 months ago and the service has never been turned off - as they want to count the radios as subs to Wall Street - which its now coming out they do.

Sorry, my radio works without repeaters, 99.99999% of the time. My radio has only seen one repeater in its lifetime when I was passing through Mobile, AL. There are NO repeaters in my stomping grounds but some how it works, maybe I'll just call it magic. Because it truly is magic to me how I can drive down an old country road with 100% tree coverage and never hear the music sputter. Must be those gremlins in my trunk playing the music.

I can't cancel...I'd have nothing to listen to in the car, I took the stupid ugly FM antenna off the car months ago.

This is getting stupid and I don't have time to listen to your lies on satellite radio when you don't even know how the system works or even how to install it for that matter. I've got some BTLS to listen to......enjoy the rest of this thread.

 

[damaged]

Oh, I'm not saying that you NEED the repeaters to get signal, but in areas where the LOS is bad (perhaps Manhatten-ish areas), repeaters are a good bandaid.

Again, I am not pretending I know about the systems well enough to be 100% firm.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I can't cancel...I'd have nothing to listen to in the car, I took the stupid ugly FM antenna off the car months ago.

Shows you are not reading what I posted (big surprise).

You won't get turned off - or at minimum will probably reduce your bill to $6 a month.

And on a day the entire market rallied with the Dow Jones Average up over 200 points and almost everyone closing green - XM closed at literally their lowest point in 2+ years.

Smart money has already seeing the trouble in this stock and getting out. No matter what, it's not a sign of confidence.

 

[Optical Serenity]

I don't know what I would do if XM didn't exist! I hate broadcast FM radio. The only time I use broadcast AM radio is for certain talk shows and local traffic. Even though I can get 24/7 traffic of the metro Atlanta area on XM.

 

[myquealer]

IT DOESNT WORK WITHOUT REPEATERS and 90+ of the population is listening to REPEATERS - not satellites.

That may be true for XM. I know they have a lot more repeaters than Sirius and the low position of their satellites makes them easily blocked from your car antenna.

Sirius on the other hand only has about 250 repeaters and they certainly do not cover 90% of the population. The Sirius repeaters tend to cover the downtown areas of major metropolitan areas where skyscrapers block the signal. Aside from those areas chances are very good you are getting your signal entirely from the satellites.

And here's my money saving tip to you - call and cancel. First they will do whatever they can reducing the monthly fee dramatically for you. Even after that, I know of 3 people that cancelled over 9 months ago and the service has never been turned off - as they want to count the radios as subs to Wall Street - which its now coming out they do.

Again, this may work for XM but Sirius will tend to cancel your account when you ask them to without making any special offers. Sirius seems to be happy with their subscriber growth without having to fake their numbers.

With SIrius when you cancel your subscription the satellites send a signal to deactivate your radio. If your radio is not on it will still work until the satellites send the signal again when your radio is on. I recently bought a Sirius radio from eBay which still worked. After leaving it on for about 4 hours it was deactivated by the satellites. Unless Sirius sends the deactivation signals at the same time every day and you know when this is and make sure to have your radio shut off at that time it is just a matter of time until your radio stops working. The more you listen, chances are the sooner it will stop working.

 

[PoitNarf]

Yeah, if the ~250 repeaters that Sirius has did cover 90% of the populated areas they'd be pretty freakin powerful I imagine.

 

[mdp1116]

Thats bs also, because when i was living in lenapah oklahoma 75 miles north of tulsa Way to far away from a repeater i acutally get a better signal off the sat than i do when im in the dfw area. One good thing about it is that you do not hear difference in the sound quality or atleast i dont.

Because truth be know, Satellite Radio is BS.

98% of the time you are listening to the local repeater that is ground based.

Driving CrossCountry you might actually be listening to the satellite.

 

[scooby2]

HDTVFanAtic, sounds like you have your antenna on the inside of your vehicle. I had XM from 2002 until May 2005 and have had Sirius since then. I rarely see a repeater as well as there are none between Lansing and Detroit. I did lose signal for the first time in at least a year because I was in a parking garage in East Lansing on Friday. There are no repeaters in East Lansing and the one in Lansing only covers a few miles.

Most problems you have mentioned are all XM related due to poor management. XM was down due to FCC issues and is down for the year due to the "insider trading" by their ceo, the class action lawsuits, and not meeting their numbers.

Sirius as of yet has not had to restate their numbers

 

[mdp1116]

not to bash xm but my dad had it in his truck and i totally hated it, the channels did not seem to be programmed right, on my sirius you have hits 1 which is top 40, alt nation which is top altern. it doesnt seem that xm has those types of channels like are like that. i know there is lucy, and those 40ish channels but they dont seem to be programmed with the right kind of music.

HDTVFanAtic, sounds like you have your antenna on the inside of your vehicle. I had XM from 2002 until May 2005 and have had Sirius since then. I rarely see a repeater as well as there are none between Lansing and Detroit. I did lose signal for the first time in at least a year because I was in a parking garage in East Lansing on Friday. There are no repeaters in East Lansing and the one in Lansing only covers a few miles.

Most problems you have mentioned are all XM related due to poor management. XM was down due to FCC issues and is down for the year due to the "insider trading" by their ceo, the class action lawsuits, and not meeting their numbers.

Sirius as of yet has not had to restate their numbers

 

[johnml]

I live in southeast Florida and always drive around with my Sirius antenna inside my car on the dashboard and maybe lose the signal about 5% of the time.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

HDTVFanAtic, sounds like you have your antenna on the inside of your vehicle. I had XM from 2002 until May 2005 and have had Sirius since then. I rarely see a repeater as well as there are none between Lansing and Detroit. I did lose signal for the first time in at least a year because I was in a parking garage in East Lansing on Friday. There are no repeaters in East Lansing and the one in Lansing only covers a few miles.

Most problems you have mentioned are all XM related due to poor management. XM was down due to FCC issues and is down for the year due to the "insider trading" by their ceo, the class action lawsuits, and not meeting their numbers.

Sirius as of yet has not had to restate their numbers

Never had an inside antenna.

Regardless, XM hit a 3 YEAR LOW. And my god, look at your laundry list of items...lol.

FCC issues forcing halt of receiver sales.

Insider Trading.

Class Action Lawsuits.

Not Meeting their subcription numbers.

Yep, you're right, no wonder its down, LOL. There isn't much left. Only way it could be worse would be if they were guilty of downright fraud like Enron (which I am not suggesting they are).

Oh, seems in the last 72 hours it's Blame The Ad Agency, so they are putting their $50 Million Ad Budget up for review and Mullen (the former agency that does the creative) will not be bidding for it.

The reason they are down to their 3 year low is simple.

They promised from 2000-2004 they would break even with 4 Million Subscribers @$9.99. They have now raised their rates 25%, double the 4 Millions subs and still swimming in red ink.

That's troublesome for anyone.