[Other Topic] How is a station suppose to ID?

Discussion in 'Local Radio Discussion' started by Iceberg, Jan 17, 2016.

  1. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    This is one of them that Radio, Brian1430 or Trip probably know.

    When you have a AM station and a FM translator of said AM station....how are you suppose to ID?
    AM 1st?
    FM 1st?
    Depends on the station in particular?
    Doesnt matter?

    Only reason I ask is I was listening to "Sasquatch 106.5" out of Duluth via 560AM. They have a FM translator on 106.5 W293CT which is how they brand (Sasquatch 106.5). When I heard the ID they said

    "Sasquatch 106.5 is W293CT Duluth/Superior. Also heard on WEBC 560 AM Duluth" (then did some local towns nearby and then said "The Squatch Rocks")

    I was under the assumption that the "actual" station (WEBC 560AM) is suppose to be mentioned 1st?

    I know the local AM/FM combo KCHK when its same programming ID as
    "You're listening to KCHK 1350AM and 95.5 FM New Prague"
     
  2. radio

    radio "On the Air" in MI
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    Don't think it really matters, as long as all are ID'd. Now, the "sticky" part is, translators can ID with you never even HEARING it by what is called FSK or "frequency shift keying"..that only engineers and the FCC can hear. Surprises me that since this is built in to most translator transmitters (Crown brand for instance) that it isn't being done in the case you cite. And, in the old days, it would have been "WEBC, Duluth" for the AM side, nothing in between call letters and town. Translators don't even have to do every hour, (though it's easier to over-ID than do the minimal requirements) and, they can also do it via morse code which WE do (because it's cool and...) because the public gets confused when call letters and numbers are combined as they are with translators. Most of our listeners assume the morse code of "W224BZ, Ionia" is actually part of the newscast since it precedes news 24/7.

    I would have done, Sasquatch is "caught" on WEBC, Duluth and FM 106-5, Duluth- Superior"......followed by morse code for the translator and a sasquatch-like growl. The code and the growl would go together like someone using electronic tracking to find the beast! THAT would be fun.
     
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  3. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    I was listening to the "mothership" (560AM)

    I do like your ID listing though ;) very creative.

    Like I say I figured the actual station had to be first (and not the translator). I know there is another station/translator combo and they ID "correctly"
    KZIO 104.3 Two Harbors K231BI 94.1 Duluth/Superior.....94X
    (while Two Harbors is just up the road, Duluth reception is very spotty for stations NOT on the antenna farm (which is "up on the hill")
     
  4. Rolling Joe

    Rolling Joe SatelliteGuys Pro

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    Fun and creative! I thought stations were required to provide the frequency as well as the call letters and city of license in an ID? Which would make it "Sasquatch is "caught" on 560 WEBC, Duluth and FM 106-5, Duluth- Superior".
     
  5. radio

    radio "On the Air" in MI
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    Frequency is not required, but allowed.
     
  6. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    I knew frequency is not required because most in Minneapolis don't

    Then there are the stations with the "longggggggg ID" due to the satellite stations. One of the stations in Duluth (KQ95) has 4 satellite stations across the Northland so their ID is as such

    "KQ95 is
    KQDS 94.9 FM Duluth-Superior
    KBAJ 105.5 FM Deer River/Grand Rapids
    KAOD 106.7 FM Babbitt/Ely
    WXXZ 95.3 FM Grand Marais/Ashland
    WWWI 95.9 Pillager/BrainerdBaxter
    The KQ network originates at KQDS"

    (funny how they say FM after each frequency EXCEPT the last one)
     
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  7. Mister B

    Mister B SatelliteGuys Pro
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    I just heard "you're listening to KCKK AM Littleton Colorado, K229BS Lakewood Colorado". Obviously I am on AM down here in Texas.
     
  8. ejb1980

    ejb1980 SatelliteGuys Pro

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    Interesting topic, as I was thinking about it myself the other day, two things:
    1. Vermont Public Radio has questionable IDs. Aren't HD stations supposed to ID as such? None of their channels do. All full power VPR News channels are HD and most of the full power VPR Classical stations are also HD. The VPR News channels carry VPR Classical on the -2 of their signals and vice versa. Shouldn't each be ID'd? Granted that would take forever (it takes long enough as it is with the DJ verbally saying each ID each hour for their many signals.)
    2. Translator IDs. To complicate #1, there are seemingly endless translators for each of the signals all over the place. They will add in some "94.7 in Bolton" every now and then, but never a W234BD.

    Basically, what you hear now is "WOXR Schuyler Falls - Burlington." But shouldn't it be "WOXR HD1 Schuyler Falls, WVPS HD2 Burlington, W234BD Bolton" to be official? That would literally take 5 minutes, though, to list all of those for all of their signals, even rotating the translators every 3 hours.
     
  9. ejb1980

    ejb1980 SatelliteGuys Pro

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    This long spiel is my favorite: (linked for pretty, vasty under-estimated coverage maps). Note the lack of FM on the last one here, too.
    http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/about/coverage.html
     
  10. Mister B

    Mister B SatelliteGuys Pro
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    I listen to the news in the morning on KRLD (1080) from Dallas. At the top the hour they say "KRLD AM HD, FM HD 2 Dallas". Sometime back this got me to wondering where they are on FM in HD if I should go to Dallas. Of course I looked it up on radiostationworld.com but the casual listener in the Dallas area probably would not know where to find it. On the other hand, when you can listen to the news on a 50,000 watt day and night AM station, who needs to find it piggybacked on some local FM for those few who even have a HD capable radio.
     
  11. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    FM analog translator

    IHerat whatever does that in Minneapolis. They have their 50kw talker (1130 AM) on the HD2 of the sports FM station...just so they can feed a analog translator for folks in downtown Mpls in buildings.

    But usually they give the HD frequency too (at least they do here) so its
    KSTP 1500 St Paul/Minneapolis also on KSTP 94.5 FM HD2
     
  12. Tampa8

    Tampa8 I'll Stand Up and Say So
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    WFLA (970 AM) when listening on the FM translator identifies as 96.7 WFLA.

    But while on the subject, there are two other radio stations that identify as WFLA, and they do not simulcast the actual Tampa WFLA, though they may at times have some of the same National talk programming, like Rush. 540 AM WFLA is in the Orlando area (And strong in the Tampa area) and there is 102.5 WFLA. Their legal call sign is WFLF but I do not hear them use it on AM the times I have listened, I can't get the FM from Tampa, haven't been to Orlando for a few years. When I first visited Florida 540 AM was WGTO the first channel I heard on my first visit to Florida from my rental car from Orlando airport because it was also the only Florida station I could DX from Connecticut many many years ago with my beverage antenna.

    http://www.970wfla.com/
    http://radio-locator.com/info/W244BE-FX
    http://www.iheart.com/live/fm-1025-am-540-wfla-589/
    http://www.1025wfla.com/
     
  13. radio

    radio "On the Air" in MI
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    Okay, I'll try to help. Much "action here. Nice to see!
    Translators: Need NOT ID every hour. I can't cut and paste from the FCC, their page for that site is down,(the main site is up) but...I happen to have a translator, and a copy of the rules about 4 rooms away. We're required to post the rules in our TX room or studios for translators, so here ya go...Here's a couple of the rules, paraphrased to save typing...there's more deatil on the

    "By arranging for the primary station which is being rebroadcast to ID the translator by call sign and location. THREE such ID's shall be made during each day, once between 7 and 9 AM, once between 12:55 and 1:05 PM, and once between 4PM and 6PM." this could be why you don't hear it frequently on some of the stations mentioned in this thread.

    "By transmitting the call sign in international morse code at least once each hour. Transmitters of FM broadcast translator stations of more than one watt power output must be equipped with an automatic keying device that will transmit the call sign at least once each hour unless there is a frim agreement with the translator's primary station as described above."

    IF there is also a KCKK-FM, from my experience, they are borderline "arguable" okay, though technically, NO AM is legally titled "XXXX-AM". When an FM shares call letters, the FM side should add the "FM" designation, because that's just how it's been done for years since FM was added. By the way, mention of the state is not required, but allowed. only COL "City of License" is of interest to the FCC in legal IDs. I suppose one could argue that in areas bordering multiple states, or in places with identical town names, (e.g. Sault Ste. Marie, MI vs. Canada or Sheboygan, WI vs. Cheboygan, MI) it could be necessary should the signals be close enough to be heard in the same locations.

    Given that translators don't HAVE to legally ID in an audible fashion and can use the FSK method, (see a few posts up) you're down to whether or not the HD identifies itself. This type of rule is one of the ways the big boys have created "stations" out of translators, without confusing listeners. They send HD into translators, and the HD's ID on the main station's carrier if memory serves. (this area I'm gray in, but the HD's near me do that)...so, in that case, the actual translator with the HD translated on it may never be ID'd, thus sounding like a "real" station when it is not. I doubt if any public stations would make errors in their ID'ing.

    For simple translators of AM into FM, or FM into FM, the audible legal ID is still the easiest, best way to guarantee compliance. I do think, however we're probably one of the few, maybe the only one using morse code. It just sounds cool, and guarantees being heard every hour, since we ARE the "parent" station to our own co-located FM. It also doesn't confuse the public into saying, "Just what the heck IS that W224BZ he talkes about, anyway?" I only do that when we're running behind in live programming, and want to skip the recorded legal ID.

    I'm unclear about multiple station ID's from one originating location as (I think I understood the question) was outlined above. There WAS a time when it was not permitted, and every station along the "chain" had to do it's own, by breaking in to the network, be it a station to station network, or a satellite fed station. I'd guess this rule has been "relaxed."

    Does this help anyone? Hope so. NIce to see the interest on this board!
    You can always read up on "legal ID's" on fcc.gov for better explanations, I only know what I've been taught as an operator, and the HD side I only know what I HEAR.
     
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  14. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    very cool info!
    (yeah I'm a geek)
     
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  15. raoul5788

    raoul5788 Studebaker driver
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    There is a station in Maine, I think it's 97.7 in Ellsworth
    , that ids as 97 dot 7. Anyone seen that before?
     
  16. radio

    radio "On the Air" in MI
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    That would be their "slogan" but not a legal ID. They probably slip in a very fast " Wxxx, town" between commercials near the top of the hour.
    Listen and I bet you'll hear it. Unfortunately, some stations don't take the "pride" in their name (call letters) that they should, in my opinion, they bury it like it's not important at all. Legal ID's are required once per hour for non translator stations "as close as possible to the top of the hour" during normal programming.
     
  17. Mister B

    Mister B SatelliteGuys Pro
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    Yes, I remember when all radio stations were known by their call letters and dial position. I suppose it was in the late 80's or 90's that I started hearing "Jack FM" or "Fox Oldies". If they do not like their call letters, I do not believe it is very difficult for a station to change it's call letters, some have done it many times. 570 in Las Cruces, NM was KGRT for 40 years then KSNM, they went back to KGRT and now are KMWL.
     
  18. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    so true
    93X does a very fast ID as "KXXR Minneapolis/St Paul......(then it slows down)....93X"
     
  19. Iceberg

    Iceberg Topic Starter The No Pain Train
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    Interesting.... I am at the lake house and both times I heard an ID it was just the AM callsign.

    Sasquatch 106.5 is WEBC 560 Duluth superior cloquet hermantown Bob and Tom in the morning and great classic rock all day long. Check us out online at squatch rocks dot com

    No mention of the FM translator..... at least not to the human ear ;)
     
  20. radio

    radio "On the Air" in MI
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    If you heard no ID for the translator, it's probably the "FSK" which is inaudible to us, (frequency shift keying, I believe it is called) or...they are only doing it audibly the bare minimum times on the parent station feeding the translator... which is, strangely enough, not hourly but "x" amount of times per day during times specified by the FCC each day. The FCC puts the rules of ID'ing translators this way: ".. by arranging with the primary station whose signal is being rebroadcast to identify the translator by call sign and location. The identification must occur 3 times daily: once between 7 AM and 9 AM, once between 12:55 PM and 1:05 PM, and once between 4 PM and 6 PM. Stations that do not begin operating before 9 AM must provide the identification at the beginning of the broadcast day. " Of course, there's also the way we do, which is the morse code version, audibly...which I think is geek-ily cool.

    It's interesting to hear how different companies treat their FM translators...as part of the main station, as it's own with ID buried, or as a partner in programming. All depends on the owners' view of it, I guess

    We still push the AM station because it will always be the mother ship, then we call attention to the FM within the legal ID by dial location only....with the true LEGAL part is the morse code which follows our rotating ID's each hour. This also gives me the option to have many more "themed" AM station Legal ID's pushing localism, events, music, news, whatever, then an automatic play of the morse code as a separate wavefile. I DO, however have one ID where we embedded the morse code into an old, existing SUNG ID, but I don't use it much.
     
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