I had no idea that older 4K models only upscaled from 1080p to 4K...

[harshness]

Are you buying into the thinking in the industry that they really can stop piracy? I sure don't. Pirates and hackers will keep right on doing it no matter what the mfgs do.

Until such time as keys are published, HDCP 2.2 will be relatively successful in avoiding copies being made through HDMI.

And yeah, I noticed that the UHD BluRay players come with 2 HDMI ports, it would seem to be a very necessary thing to take full advantage of what they offer while being able to keep using some older gear. But that is a solution with limits, those limits being just how many HDMI ports do you have available in your system and how flexible is setting up the AVR. Some are better than others at that.

In the case of a UHD Blu-ray player, you could be using what was the Blu-ray input to the AVR and that is a net no-change in HDMI inputs required. The UHD TV has to be run to directly and most UHD TVs have plenty of inputs. My presumption is that the audio output will be HDCP 1.x and if that's not the case, my argument is badly broken.

If you have always run optical or coaxial, you may have a braindead AVR that is due for replacement.

The only problem I see going forward is if some of the UHD Blu-ray players can't handle CDs.

 

[navychop]

The I guess I'd better start saving up for another Oppo.

 

[lparsons21]

Until such time as keys are published, HDCP 2.2 will be relatively successful in avoiding copies being made through HDMI.In the case of a UHD Blu-ray player, you could be using what was the Blu-ray input to the AVR and that is a net no-change in HDMI inputs required. The UHD TV has to be run to directly and most UHD TVs have plenty of inputs. My presumption is that the audio output will be HDCP 1.x and if that's not the case, my argument is badly broken.

If you have always run optical or coaxial, you may have a braindead AVR that is due for replacement.

The only problem I see going forward is if some of the UHD Blu-ray players can't handle CDs.

You are free to believe that 2.2 won't be broken fairly soon, hell it may already be and few know it.

Since I have no plans for a UHD BluRay I haven't really looked into them. Assuming we are correct, connecting one output to the TV directly and the other to the AVR and then setting input source definitions properly should work. Not having read up much, it would seem that one output would have to be for audio only in order to keep the hdmi/hdcp chain from seeing something not compatible.

Unfortunately I've not read of anyone that actually is using both outputs discussing the issues.

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[lparsons21]

quote didn't work right in tapatalk.

I only recently started using optical. And that for 2 reasons.
1. To get DD from Netflix on the Hopper 3. For whatever reason, the H3 won't do DD from Netflix with HDMI.
2. To get 4K source on the TV and still have at least DD for audio. Other than the UDH BluRay machines, I don't know of any offering multiple HDMI outputs.

So no, my AVR isn't brain dead, it just isn't 4K compatible.

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[lparsons21]

The I guess I'd better start saving up for another Oppo.

Yes, the old 'vacuum the wallet' trick!!

But until a whole lot of source material comes out with HDR there isn't much of a reason to buy into UHD BluRays yet. And that might take a little while longer as they get an actual single standard.

Of course if you like twiddling with new tech, and the money doesn't drop out, feel free!

For me, I'm stopped at current equipment. IMO, not enough benefit to getting the latest and greatest. Combination of what I prefer to watch, how far away from the screen I sit, and my eyes being as old as the rest of me makes it much less imperative!

And as I said earlier, my Harman Kardon AVR-3700 is the last AVR they will produce as they are out of that business.


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[primestar31]

I personally don't see any reason to upgrade from this... LOL

View attachment 117318

Maybe when they get as good as the holodeck on the Enterprise I'll change my mind...

Those sets were around $1,100.00 back then, which would be the equivalent of paying around $8,000.00 today. I think we get a lot more for our money with todays sets and prices.

 

[TheForce]

Not having read up much, it would seem that one output would have to be for audio only in order to keep the hdmi/hdcp chain from seeing something not compatible.

Unfortunately I've not read of anyone that actually is using both outputs discussing the issues.

Currently, in the US market we only have one option for a UHD disk player. It is by Samsung. It has two HDMI outputs but one is for video and audio and the second is for audio only.

Your options are to connect the TV that has audio and video ( TV with speakers ) to the first hdmi that outputs both video and audio. However, if you like using an AVR for added sound and source control, you would connect your UHD player to the HDMI input to on the TV that supports 4K/ HDCP 2.2. Use the second HDMI cable from the player to your AVR. This also works for those with 4K projectors that have two HDMI inputs. The Samsung UHD player supports all optical disk formats that are current. It also has a compliment of IP TV apps for 4K content as well.

In Europe there is another player by Panasonic that uses the same connections. This Panasonic player is expected to hit US markets in August.

Currently, all UHD disk players only support HDR10. None support Dolby Vision.

There are a couple 4K AVR's now that have been firmware upgraded to support HDCP2.2 and therefore will allow your Samsung player to connect audio and video to the AVR and output HDCP 2.2 4K to your TV or Projector.



There are other compatibility issues with UHD as well. With the introduction of expanded color gamut and HDR, the player needs to be outputting the same formats as the display or the colors will all be messed up.
for example: The Samsung outputs HDR10 and 4:4:4 RGB. However my Projector wants to see 4:2:0 which means the colors are all messed up when viewing wide color gamut of BT2020. Fortunately, the colors can be recalibrated to see an acceptable picture. Not all TV's can be user recalibrated. Sony is attempting to update the firmware to fix this. The Panasonic player is supposed to output 4:2:0 wide color HDR10 so that player is claimed to be perfect out of the box when connected to the Sony projector that supports 4:2:0.


I have the Samsung player and had no problems connecting it to my projector for video to the input that supports HDCP2.2 and the audio to my AVR by the second HDMI audio only output. Just know that for 4K to work from these players, your Player and your video display must support HDCP2.2. The hdmi audio, does not require HDCP2.2. If your TV is not HDCP compliant, then you'll need to play the 2K disk and set the player to output 1080p only.

 

[Bruce]

There are a couple 4K AVR's now that have been firmware upgraded to support HDCP2.2 and therefore will allow your Samsung player to connect audio and video to the AVR and output HDCP 2.2 4K to your TV or Projector.

Onkyos have been able to handle HDCP 2.2 since the 2015 models right out of the box.

 

[mdram]

Onkyos have been able to handle HDCP 2.2 since the 2015 models right out of the box.

but not every model had every hdmo port with hdcp 2.2
many 2015 models of most manufacturers did hdcp2.2 hdmi 2, some on all ports some on 1 port, some on other numbers

 

[lparsons21]

but not every model had every hdmo port with hdcp 2.2
many 2015 models of most manufacturers did hdcp2.2 hdmi 2, some on all ports some on 1 port, some on other numbers

That's true even on some 4K TVs.

But I am not aware of any AVRs that have all HDMI ports 2.0/2.2 compatible. All the ones I've seen have varying numbers as you note.

Denon and Panasonic have 4K AVRs now also as do most of the mfgs though some not across the whole line.

Don - thanks for the info on the 2 ports and confirming they are as you describe. As to HDR, that's not an issue for me and won't be for quite some time as I'm in a holding pattern on any new purchases. My TV is only a few months old so changing it out isn't going to happen.

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[mdram]

That's true even on some 4K TVs.

But I am not aware of any AVRs that have all HDMI ports 2.0/2.2 compatible. All the ones I've seen have varying numbers as you note.

Denon and Panasonic have 4K AVRs now also as do most of the mfgs though some not across the whole line.

Don - thanks for the info on the 2 ports and confirming they are as you describe. As to HDR, that's not an issue for me and won't be for quite some time as I'm in a holding pattern on any new purchases. My TV is only a few months old so changing it out isn't going to happen.

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iirc any 2015 denon starting at the 710 have all 2.0/2.2 ports

 

[lparsons21]

iirc any 2015 denon starting at the 710 have all 2.0/2.2 ports

Thanks for that info. I never looked at the 2015 Denon thread on AVS since I didn't have 4K and my Denon was a 2014 model. Of course the 2014 model was described as 'future proof' when I bought it. So I guess that the definition of 'future proof' is now 1 year.

There was some discussion in the 2016 Denon threads over there and I swear I remember some comments being made that only 3 or 4 of the ports were 2.0/2.2 compatible on them.

In the end for me it really doesn't matter as I made a conscious choice to get a refurbed Harman Kardon 3700 AVR that isn't 2.0/2.2 compatible at all. Since I can get the video right just by bypassing the AVR with video and get the audio right with optical, I figure I like the sweet Harman Kardon sound much better than any other AVR line.


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[mdram]

yeah i went with a 2014 refurb denon, to cut costs, figured once 4k was more main stream i would upgrade to something that was compatible

 

[TheForce]

I like the sweet Harman Kardon sound much better than any other AVR line.

What? The only devices that should add color ( aka distortion) to your sound are speakers and microphones and tube amps. You have no control over the microphones and tube amps are all but obsolete today. Preamps and amps should strive to have no affect on the "color" of the sound. Is it possible your hearing aids need updating?

I buy my AVR plus SW amps based on features and power since all modern AVR amps pretty neutral. I think you are just comfortable with the interface on the HK equipment. I'm that way with Denon and prior to Denon I had McIntosh and SAE and Sony but that was years ago. I'm on my 3rd generation of Denon now and it is doing fine. I don't see me upgrading to just have a 4K HDCP2.2 HDMI compliant AVR. I have a macro programmable remote that easily switches stuff between the dual HDMI for UHD player and the other devices.

If Samsung doesn't get compatible format to my projector, I will probably upgrade to a new UHD player next year. For now, I'll stick to the Samsung and continue to hope for a firmware that works to make it compatible with my projector. I have the new one just out but haven't installed it yet.

Here's a nice subjective chart one should consider when deciding to go 4K. It only addresses resolution, not HDR or color gamut. It is worthy to note that when it comes to HDR, your display really needs to be very bright to effectively benefit from HDR10 and I doubt my projector has the minimum brightness to display the range required.

Notice that as far as resolution goes, if you bought a 55" OLED, it may do OK with the color range and the brightness for HDR, but to see any benefit to the resolution you will need to sit about 5 ft from the screen or closer.

I have a 105" diagonal 16x9 screen and I sit 8 ft from the screen in my front row seat.

 

[harshness]

The hdmi audio, does not require HDCP2.2.

I'm betting it does require HDCP 1.x.

If your TV is not HDCP compliant, then you'll need to play the 2K disk and set the player to output 1080p only.

If your TV doesn't support HDCP at all, I have doubts the player will work at all. HDCP can't be characterized as 2.2 or not. I reason that there has to be that middle step.

 

[lparsons21]

What? The only devices that should add color ( aka distortion) to your sound are speakers and microphones and tube amps. You have no control over the microphones and tube amps are all but obsolete today. Preamps and amps should strive to have no affect on the "color" of the sound. Is it possible your hearing aids need updating?

I buy my AVR plus SW amps based on features and power since all modern AVR amps pretty neutral. I think you are just comfortable with the interface on the HK equipment. I'm that way with Denon and prior to Denon I had McIntosh and SAE and Sony but that was years ago. I'm on my 3rd generation of Denon now and it is doing fine. I don't see me upgrading to just have a 4K HDCP2.2 HDMI compliant AVR. I have a macro programmable remote that easily switches stuff between the dual HDMI for UHD player and the other devices.

FWIW, hook up your Denon to your speakers and listen. Then IF you had one, hook up a Harman Kardon and listen. You will notice a fuller, richer sound from the HK. Call it distortion, coloring or whatever, it just sounds better. But when HK was still in the biz, you don't keep up as well with the new things. They were very conservative about what they introduced to new models.

Hey you could get their last flagship, the 3700, for $350 refurbed with a new warranty just to test...

while it doesn't have 2.0/2.2 compatibility, it has 8 HDMI ports, 2 optical, 1 digital coax and it has 7 channel pre-amp outputs. Power output on it is just like the rest, Bullsh!t numbers done in Bullsh!t ways! They claim 125wpc 2-channels driven. They used to be nearly the last holdout to rate theirs with all channels driven. My much older HK AVR247 is rated at 50wpc all 7 channels driven 20-20Khz. Blows most things out of the water.

And no, it isn't the interface that is attractive! The setup is complete and detailed but slow to operate, PITA IMO. In daily operation you don't actually see anything from it except the volume onscreen. And the front panel is VERY unobtrusive. It shows what you are watching and what audio is going on.

I may end up getting an Emotiva 7-channel power amp to get more power. The new BasX A-700(?) is rated at 80wpc all 7 channels driven.


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[harshness]

What? The only devices that should add color ( aka distortion) to your sound are speakers and microphones and tube amps.

If you believe the review/comparison of the Panasonic UHD Blu-ray, apparently the Samsung UBD-K8500 colors the audio noticeably.

Solid state should not be confused with 100% accurate audio rendition. It has some of the same limitations that tube amps do and brings a couple of its own.

 

[TheForce]

I'm betting it does require HDCP 1.x.If your TV doesn't support HDCP at all, I have doubts the player will work at all. HDCP can't be characterized as 2.2 or not. I reason that there has to be that middle step.

If you bought early adopter 4K TV then it may not have the required UHD spec of HDMI2.0 / HDCP2.2. It that is the case when you play a UHD 4K disk it will not play. The problem with buying early adopter, is that you have to expect you may need to buy soon again. My rule, never buy tomorrow's technology promise today and expect it to work tomorrow. Also, nothing is "future proof." That statement is a lie. People who bought the first 4K TV's are stuck with a TV that does not display 4K UHD. And that is the difference... UHD. Unfortunately, you will not be able to display the UHD disks, however all is not lost. The 4K only TV's can play 4K content from other sources such as Netflix, Amazon, etc. Other early adopter 4K TV's were also not native 4K. Even the JVC RS600 isn't a native 4K panel. Many are only upscaled only to 3840 pixels. That's fine for UHD disks because they are rendered for 3840. But any full 4K content would need to be e-scaled. The Sony uses a full 4K panel.

The problem I have today, is there is no single best solution for what the spec offers. You have to pick your features and then be ready for obsolescence. Otherwise wait for the industry to settle and that might take 2-3 years.

Call it distortion, coloring or whatever, it just sounds better.

Well that is your opinion. I can find audiophiles who will claim McIntosh tube amps sound better. I respect your opinion but please don't try to fool yourself that everyone will agree. We all have enough variations in the sound when it comes to the speakers and the room. FWIW- my AVR is a Denon 4311ci and it does just fine with two 2KW SW Carver amps. I last upgraded when I needed HDMI for 3D video compliance and 7.1 audio. If I upgrade one day, it's because I want Dolby Atmos.

 

[lparsons21]

Well that is your opinion. I can find audiophiles who will claim McIntosh tube amps sound better. I respect your opinion but please don't try to fool yourself that everyone will agree. We all have enough variations in the sound when it comes to the speakers and the room. FWIW- my AVR is a Denon 4311ci and it does just fine with two 2KW SW Carver amps. I last upgraded when I needed HDMI for 3D video compliance and 7.1 audio. If I upgrade one day, it's because I want Dolby Atmos.

Yep, we all have our opinions. The Denon line is good stuff overall. I have a 2113ci and a S900W sitting in the closet. I was pleased with both of them but was missing the 'sweetness' of HK. It is a shame that HK felt they could no longer compete profitably in the AVR market.

Of course there are plenty that like many other brands too. Strong followings for Yamaha and Sony AVRs though I find both of those brands to be much too bright and harsh to my ears.

I don't foresee me implementing Atmos and frankly don't see me getting new speakers. My use is literally all based around what I watch and listen to for the TV. And of course, I'm getting older so the ears aren't going to improve and they've already been abused by many years working the flight deck of aircraft carriers.


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[harshness]

It is a shame that HK felt they could no longer compete profitably in the AVR market.

The reviews they were getting on the later models were the writing on the walls. It has been a downhill slide for Harman Kardon since Sidney Harman went into acquisition mode and started buying up anything and everything. Acquisitions include:

AKG (pro mics, headphones), AMX (CCTV routers), BSS (audio routers), Crown (pro audio amps), dbx (pro audio mixers and processors), DigiTech (audio effect processors), Infinity (home loudspeakers, mobile amps and speakers), JBL (home loudspeakers, headphones, mobile amps and speakers), JBL Professional (pro sound systems), Lexicon (home audiophile amps and pre-amps), Mark Levinson (home audiophile amps and pre-amps), Martin (pro lighting), Revel (home loudspeakers), Studer (video switchers) and Soundcraft (audio mixers).