Installing Dish - installer rules make it impossible!

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larrystotler

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 5, 2004
591
0
Winchester, VA
Please keep in mind that installation rules exist for a reason. There is a lot of debate as to what is right and proper, but the main thing is to get someone who will listen to what you envision, and will be honest with you about whether it will work or not. When I was in sales, it was the same thing. People came in "Knowing" exactly what they wanted, and I had to feel them out to sell them what they really needed. Educating the consumer is a part of most jobs where you deal with the public. You may find an installer that will lag it right into your chimney with tapcon self tappers. But that doesn't mean it was the best and safest way to do the job.
 
N

nsafreak

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 7, 2004
528
13
Denver,Co
Good luck with the chimney mount hope it works out for you. I think the prime reason that a DNSC installer won't do a chimney mount is because of the liability factor. Sure the likelyhood of something happening is about the same as a direct lightning strike but they take that into account.

On a side note I had my install done by a DNSC tech and it went quite well. Very nice & clean install I think I posted some pics on this forum of it.
 
C

CDH

Thread Starter
Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Jul 28, 2004
498
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Greenville, SC
larrystotler said:
Please keep in mind that installation rules exist for a reason. There is a lot of debate as to what is right and proper, but the main thing is to get someone who will listen to what you envision, and will be honest with you about whether it will work or not. When I was in sales, it was the same thing. People came in "Knowing" exactly what they wanted, and I had to feel them out to sell them what they really needed. Educating the consumer is a part of most jobs where you deal with the public. You may find an installer that will lag it right into your chimney with tapcon self tappers. But that doesn't mean it was the best and safest way to do the job.

Thanks for your input. I'm sure that what you're saying is correct and I will be taking your advice to have an experienced installer look at the site to determine the best course of action.

However, the DNSC installer had many more issues than simply following a no-chimney policy. He had never seen a 942, had no idea about the TV2 output, had no idea how to integrate an OTA antenna, etc. He wanted to slap two roof-mounts into the plywood of my roof with the silicon gel mentioned above. He was very clear that he and his company would take no responsibility if the install was botched and caused leaking into the roof.

Also, as I'll be resurfacing my roof in the next couple of years I didn't want to have to remove and then reinstall dish mounts.

CDH.
 
S

satqas

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Feb 4, 2005
26
0
Chisholm, MN
CDH said:
It wasn't his fault that he didn't have the training or experience to do things properly. He was a nice guy trying to get by at a new job.

He couldn't do the install and told me he'd only make $10 for showing up on site. I paid him another $25 because I didn't like the idea of him not making any money for a Saturday morning of work. He didn't want to take it, but I told him that everyone's got to make a living somehow. I think he was grateful.

The next route will be a local retailer who seems to know what they're doing!

CDH.

If he only made $10 for showing up on site this was not a DNS installer. It may have been a sub-contractor.

After taking a couple of days reading the bashing of DNS installers I have to make my comments. There are good and bad installers in every genre, be it DNS, sub-contractors, or retailers. In the area I live if you want a good quality install then hope for a DNS installer, the majority of the retailers and subs here do crap work.

On the other hand if you live in the State adjacent to mine you want a retailer to do your install.

The best suggestion I can make to anyone out there is to do some research before you set something up, talk to neighbors, friends and coworkers and see who in your area does good work.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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Sep 7, 2003
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CDH said:
Thanks for your input. I'm sure that what you're saying is correct and I will be taking your advice to have an experienced installer look at the site to determine the best course of action.

However, the DNSC installer had many more issues than simply following a no-chimney policy. He had never seen a 942, had no idea about the TV2 output, had no idea how to integrate an OTA antenna, etc. He wanted to slap two roof-mounts into the plywood of my roof with the silicon gel mentioned above. He was very clear that he and his company would take no responsibility if the install was botched and caused leaking into the roof.

Also, as I'll be resurfacing my roof in the next couple of years I didn't want to have to remove and then reinstall dish mounts.

CDH.

Being in the came geographical area as you are, I know the subcontracted install outfit that you had to deal with. They are not DNSC, but a large contractor for installs. In your case, I would have not recommended that such installers mount on the roof either. I have a degree in structual and mechanical engineering and 35 years of experience with house and building structures. I am a master electrician and have been involved with OTA antennas since the Golden Age of Television ,when everything was OTA. Silicone sealant is not a good sealing method for asphalt based fiberglass matted roofing material.

THis is a correct roof install method;

DBS ROOF INSTALL TECHNIQUE

I install a lot of roof mounts on pitched asphalt shingle roofs. I never never use silicone or roofing cement or coatings. And, I never use those lag screws that require predrilling.

I use #14(1/4"dia) fully threaded hardened hex head drive sheet metal screws. I drive two three inch long ones into the rafters and four 1-1/2" long ones into the corners of the feet. It is not difficult to find the rafters, since hitting the roof surface with the back of your fist will result in a solid sound. Even if you miss, six fully threaded screws will provide a very good hold that will require a hurricane or a tornado to blow off. In that case, the home owner's insurance will apply, since it will be considered an "Act of God."

The above provides for one solid mount. The screws driven through the shingles, without predrilling, provides a near perfect seal, since the heat generated in driving them melts the asphalt, which rehardens around the screw. This is also basically how roofing nails work. Just for insurance and for those customers who inspect the install, I cover the heads with a pliable modeling clay like duct seal. A one pound brick costs no more that $2 at Home Depot. This is also perfect for sealing cable wall entries.
The best level that I have used is the Israeli made Post-Rite sold at Sears for $5.99. It is a post level with two bubbles spaced 90 degrees apart on a vertical hinge. The magnets don't work that well, but the elastic strap holds it firmly on the "J" pole. It's worth having, if you do a lot of installs. Forget the bubble level that fits on the inside of the mast. It requires you to get up and increase your center of gravity to look at it from the top, which can be dangerous on a steeply pitched roof. With the Post-Rite, you can do everything while sitting on the roof's surface and still have access to see the levels, without moving your position above and back down to the mounting.
The center of the dish mounting foot is usually marked with an embossed line down the center. Except for a very old mounting foot, one of the center holes is round, and the other is a slotted arc. The first step is to screw in the long 2-1/2" to 3" long screw into the round hole, just driven down enough so that you can pivot the foot on this one screw. Swing the pole up and down and pivot the foot until both bubbles on the Post-Rite are centered. Drive in the second lomg screw. Then, drive in the short corner screws until snug. Using the bolts and nuts that hold the pole to the foot, tighten them for a final adjustment, if plumb had shifted a little due to the roof shingles having been compressed from driving in the screws. Use small balls of duct seal the size of a small marble and work them over the screw heads.
Set the skew or tilt and elevation correctly on the dish correctly for the locality. Place the dish back on the pole and tighten the vertical clamp bolts just tight enough to take up all of the wobble. Swing the dish horizontally until you get the highest signal levelon the meter. Tighten the vertical sleeve mounting bolts. Check the TV to verify signals for each satellite position.

Removal of Dish Mount

Backing out the screws leaves holes of less that 1/4" that are almost undetectable to the casual observer on the ground. The mounting foot is not "glued" to the shingles and comes off without tearing them. Whoever thought gluing the mounting foot to the shingles provides security is a fool. If the wind blows the dish off in a hurricane, a lot of shingles comes off. If held only with screws, a dish blown off results in less damage. The duct seal is great for sealing the holes left from the removed screws. Filled holes can be very discrete.

If you are removing a previously "glued" mounting foot, the way to do this with the least damage is with a thin stainless steel wire, such as aircraft safety wire or a piece of piano wire wrapped between two sticks like a garotte. Saw away the silicone with the wire, and the mounting foot comes off pretty clean. I're even used this method to take off mirror tiles stuck to dry wall, without damaging the surface.

If you are replacing shingles, the dry wall knife is your best friend. It allows you to lift the heat activated glue down tabs of asphalt shingles without breaking them off.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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Sep 7, 2003
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CDH said:
Also, as I'll be resurfacing my roof in the next couple of years I didn't want to have to remove and then reinstall dish mounts.CDH.

For someone really experienced in the business, this should not be a real problem.

First, reroofing changes topography of the roof surface. Simply, remounting the dish's mast into the same holes will not result in mast being plumb as it was before. The most important aspect or a reinstall, after reroofing, is that the mast has to be replumbed. If the installer has not changed any of the elevation and skew settings on the dish, it is a simple matter of replacing the dish on the mast, bringing up the signal meter screen on the television and swinging the dish from side to side until the signal level is highest.

Finding the original holes during reroofing is also easy. Just have the roofers put a coule of pieces of coat hanger wire into the two holes that fasten the mast to the rafters. If the protrude through the roofing about 1/4 inch, you'd just pull them out with pliers and place the screws.
 
Liquidforce88

Liquidforce88

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 3, 2005
3,738
39
The Land Of OZ
Mike500,

Your method sounds great, but I do not belive it would meet DNSC wind sheer requirements. We are required to use SIX 5/16 x 2.5" lag screews. As you decribded we must hit the center two lags into a roof rafter, then the other four on the corners are driven in. We do not use a silicone sealent for our roof installs. We use pinch pad or what some people call Bosen Tape. This stuff never hardens like silicone does, and it does not "glue" the dish to the roof, although it does stick preety good. I have not seen one Dish come off a house that was mounted properly in this way.

I to am a subcontractor for Dish. I still have to meet DNSC requirements and we have to take pictures to prove our work. It does not matter if the installer is DNSC, retail, or a subcontractor. If they are a good installer they are a good installer, if they are a hack they are a hack. It does not matter who they work for, that will make them a good installer.
 
seandudley

seandudley

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 30, 2004
473
0
Loudon, Tennessee
larrystotler said:
The reason you do NOT drill into a chimney is because you can cause the bricks to crack and the crack can get into the liner and cause it to crack and then pressure can build up and cause the chimney to EXPLODE. Granted, the odds of it happening are probably about the same as a direct lightning strike, but that is the reason. If installed to a chimney, you should ONLY use a strap mount

Depends on the chemney. The outside of my chemney, which they attached to, is made of hardy-board (a concrete type siding that looks like wood) which is the same thing the rest of my house is made out of.
 
T

Tom_T.

SatelliteGuys Family
May 6, 2005
40
0
My dish mount was bolted thru the shingles and into the roof 4 years ago. I get up in the attic every now & then to store stuff or take something down. Anyway, on my last visit up there, there no leaks yet around the mount.
 
mudder1310

mudder1310

SatelliteGuys Pro
Nov 14, 2004
208
0
Beaverton, Or
I wonder why the tech wouldn't take your voom dish off and use the existing mast and wire for the new 61.5 dish? I'm not sure I'd have lagged or used tapcons to mount directly to your chimney but we're issued straps with bases specifically for chimney mounts.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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Sep 7, 2003
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Dave nye said:
Mike500,

Your method sounds great, but I do not belive it would meet DNSC wind sheer requirements. We are required to use SIX 5/16 x 2.5" lag screews. As you decribded we must hit the center two lags into a roof rafter, then the other four on the corners are driven in. We do not use a silicone sealent for our roof installs. We use pinch pad or what some people call Bosen Tape. This stuff never hardens like silicone does, and it does not "glue" the dish to the roof, although it does stick preety good. I have not seen one Dish come off a house that was mounted properly in this way.

I to am a subcontractor for Dish. I still have to meet DNSC requirements and we have to take pictures to prove our work. It does not matter if the installer is DNSC, retail, or a subcontractor. If they are a good installer they are a good installer, if they are a hack they are a hack. It does not matter who they work for, that will make them a good installer.


Dave,

The original Dish install manual specifies that the center 3" bolts to be 1/4" lag screws, although the corner screws are 2 incx x 5/16. Lag screws are weak Grade 2-3 SAE rated at about 90-100,000 PSI tensile strength. The ones I use are rated to 125-150,000 PSI. As far as ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standards are concerned, lag screws are used to screw wood to wood. The 1/4" hardened Grade 5 plus screws far exceed the strength of the 5/16" lag screws. They specify 5/16" instead of 1/4" lag screws, because the 1/4" ones break easy. They are not even threaded their entire length, with a smooth shank like a wood screw. The four corner stabilizing screws will not "bite" into the plywood or osb deck, if the smooth shank lands in that area.

Lag screws placed into 1/4" predrilled holes are more likely to leak, and will break off, when driven with an impact driver. If a lag screw is broken off, another one driven into the side right by it will make a leak more likely possible.

When I am able to reach the underside of the roof deck, I use washered Tinnerman Brand Palnuts to bolt the ends of the screws to the deck.
 
C

cali_installer

SatelliteGuys Family
May 8, 2005
70
0
Los Angeles
im looking at the dis network installer bashing i am a dnsc tech and the reason has nothing to do with corp. why most are having bad installs each local manager or general managel set his own rules and guide lines for how they want and install to take place in mu local area they prefer us no to mount the dishes on the roof ans would prefer it to be mounted to the vent pipes of homes or wall's basically any place other then the roof -that goes for the dish 500 as well as the superdish whick we use bluse tapcon screws to ount it into stucco wall( figure how long will that hold) each office's main concern is damages in los angeles where im at our bigest problem is roof damage so we tend to frown on roof installs which is still 70% of where our dishes are mounted other offices dont want dishes mounted in high locations due to the fact of ladder injuries which is our biggest problem when you have installers who wert properly trained to use ladders why mount a dish in a location where u will need a 28' ladder to get to it.and also remember that you are dealing with a company who still uses al. ladders with the electrical shock hazzard so dont blame us its our managers and there lack of proper management training-
 
J

James Long

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 24, 2003
1,580
0
Michiana: South of the Border
Hey, as long as the installer knows righty tighty lefty loosy on the bolts and does a clean job I could care less if they could spell or not. I might even let them stink a little if the job was super well done. :D

JL
 
L

larrystotler

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 5, 2004
591
0
Winchester, VA
DNSC techs are overworked and underpaid and expected to do all the sh*t work. That's why I don't work for DNSC.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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Sep 7, 2003
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larrystotler said:
DNSC techs are overworked and underpaid and expected to do all the sh*t work. That's why I don't work for DNSC.

The number of installs that they are required to do in one day requires them to cut corners. I tried doing fulfillment installs for several companies but refused to do more than two in one day. I just could not leave a job knowing that it was not installed correctly. Money was not as important to me as my reputation. It was a matter of ethics.

The industry is set up, like it is in many corporate jobs. You have to check your ethics in at the door, before you report to work with these outfits. They take advantage of your need to feed your family. These companies hook many young installers in with dreams of owning their own business and huge profits. I see them all the time, when I am subcontracted for sepecialty work by the same organizations. I arrive in a nondescript 7 year old van that was paid for several years ago. They have brand new trucks with new ladder racks and tool racks indiside. I am almost sure that their rigs are financed. Basically, they are trapped into doing as many installs that they are assigned. This absolutely compromises their ability to deliver a quality install. They are paid the same for a quality install as for a marginal one. All the company cares is that the customer doesn't complain and that the install works during the warranty period.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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Sep 7, 2003
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cali_installer said:
"I" would prefer it to be mounted to the vent pipes of homes or wall's basically any place other then the roof ...

On new homes and many older homes, vent pipes are made of plastic or thin copper. The two bolt clamp on pole adapter was never meant for vent pipes, except, maybe, those made of cast iron. Cast iron has not been used for any home since the 1960's. And, even these wire not always strapped tightly to the framing.

I've seen a few of these with Phase III dishes on plastic pipe. I drive buy these regularly and I keep looking to see the day that the dish is left on the ground, having fallen off the roof, when the plastic pipe is broken.
 
Mike500

Mike500

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CDH said:
I'm glad to know that there are people out there like yourself who take that sort of care. If I run into problems with the retailer that I've contacted then I'll be in touch via PM to see if there is a way to get you to come and do my install!

I'm willing to pay - within reason - to get it done right.

CDH.

Sorry, I hadn't responded to you post. I must have overlooked it, seeing that others have posted after it.

Yes, you're welcome to send me a PM.

My charges are the same or even less than what dealers charge for a hack job. All I get is Thank you; Thank you; Thank you, when I leave the job, and many word of mouth referrals. I find that I have no need to advertise. They even ask me why I don't want more business. I tell tham that quality will suffer, if I had too many jobs to do.
 
L

larrystotler

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 5, 2004
591
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Winchester, VA
I used to work for a retailer that was always trying to tell me how to do my installs or trying to pay me less if there was already a dish or anything else that would make my job easier. Needless to say, I don't do any work for that jerk anymore. I refuse to even service my own customers of his due to his attitude, and I really hated making that decision. I have many happy subs who are glad I took the time to listen to their wants when it comes to dish placement and wiring. Most people can be made to understand that I know what I am doing, and what they thought would work will not and could end up being a danger to their residence. I have done as many as 8 installs in one day. Now, I make the same if I do 2 installs. And less travel. Large contracting companies do force installers to cut corners as noted above. The retailer I work for now is much better. We do both E* and D* installs, and they don't question my work or try to tell me how to do an install. If I come back with a no-shot, it's a no shot. And I will shoot down a job if I cannot ground it. DNSC anod other companies will tell you to just get it done, and that is wrong. Cable companies are famous for running wires around a house. I absolutely refuse to do that, and if the customer doesn't like it, I offer to leave and they can have someone else do it the wrong way for them.
 
C

CDH

Thread Starter
Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Jul 28, 2004
498
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Greenville, SC
Mike500 said:
Sorry, I hadn't responded to you post. I must have overlooked it, seeing that others have posted after it.

Yes, you're welcome to send me a PM.

My charges are the same or even less than what dealers charge for a hack job. All I get is Thank you; Thank you; Thank you, when I leave the job, and many word of mouth referrals. I find that I have no need to advertise. They even ask me why I don't want more business. I tell tham that quality will suffer, if I had too many jobs to do.

Hello Mike500. It turns out that the retailer's installer was very competant and did (in my inexpert opinion) a great job. I am up and running with a 942, picking up all OTA.

Thanks though!

CDH.
 

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