Just thought I would throw that out!

I guess the hopeful attitude of some Dishers can be compared in some regards to that of Voomers nowadays. We are clinging on to the hope that a company that once seemed to be on the cutting edge of satellite service, value, and technology will somehow bounce back, especially after the acquisition of Voom assets.
 
short sighted whiners

Ah, another set of labels. To avoid accusing me of being on the corporate payroll (the previous whiner label) the latest whiners get on here, stand on their golden soapbox and spew their angry rhetoric for all to hear. So, now I'm lumped in as an 'apologist'. Well, read my other posts, which admittedly are few. You'll quickly see that as an 'apologist' I readily identified the areas in which I was let down by equipment.

So to truly take on the role of apologist...so sorry you can't get your equipment hooked up correctly. Perhaps you don't meet spec on your wiring, perhaps you do have a faulty box, perhaps you can't read directions. Whatever the reason, your let down. Considering how unlucky you've been with your system(s), I'd have to guess that you've got something wrong on your side. Oh, but you whiners couldn't take the heat for trying to force the system through your underrated cables or whatever it is your doing wrong. Those who have had few problems generally speaking have no need to find this site and post. Only engineering geeks like myself would bother. So, you whiners get on her and waah waah about how bad it all is, which obviously leads some to come to the conclusion that you must be right and must have a point. Fact is, given the customer base out there, those without problems must exceed those with them.

So here we are, you have your forum to whine, go with it. Am I a statistical outlier? Off the top of my head, I don't know how many receivers I've owned, I've made several upgrades and expansions over the years. Suffice it to say, every one has worked and with minimal problems....but then again, I don't mind reading the directions and making sure my equipment meets spec.

In closing, if you don't like it, leave. Make your vote with the dollars you spend. No apology, no defending. This is how the free market works, captialism in motion. Ain't America grand?
 
rad said:
DirecTV is an american corporation. And I also believe that good old Rupert has become an american citizen. Plus, have you ever seen Aussie $'s, they're kind of neat. They're made of plastic and hold up a lot better then the US green backs.

QUOTE]

We have plastic money too...called "Credit Cards." :D
 
So you can't read?

1) Equipment was properly connected (by Dish actually - then verified) absolutely perfect way above standard wiring, directions followed to the T, and still didn't work. Problems are consistent with widely reported issues around software defects in the product - specifically speaking about the 921.

2) If you want to talk engineering and/or specs, BRING IT ON!!!

3) I at least DID vote with my wallet. I DID leave Dish. Maybe you ought to read the posts????

So you seem quite willing to throw around generalities but avoid specifics. How about we address some very specific points of concern, huh?

a) Is the 921 receiver - released 13 months ago and now discontinued - a high quality reliable product that merits the price tag that Dish has charge customers? Yes or No. Does it or does it not have a (well deserved) reputation for unreliability?

b) Has data compression increased degrading PQ? Yes or No.

c) Have hold times to get a CSR increased exponentially in the past 18 months? Yes or No.

d) Have those same CSRs been effective at resolving problems, and have they been thorough as to documentation and follow through? Yes or No.

There is no soapbox here, bud. There is clear, factual, data supported information that is intended to help some other poor soul from making the same mistakes I made. You seem to have a problem with that. I've got specific data supporting each and every one of the issues I set forth. You've got none. You know, I didn't have all that many problems prior to getting the 921. OK, I had 508's that died, and I really didn't like the way Dish supported them. I really HATE the way Dish unethically imposed the VOD fee and deliberately marketed it in such a way that people would think it's really a "service". But, the 921 fiasco and Charlie backpedaling on adding HD content is just the final straw.

Maybe you are OK paying more to get less, and are willing to accept less than reliable product. That's super. You're one of the people who cause quality standards to degrade. Thanks a lot.

smroycro said:
Ah, another set of labels. To avoid accusing me of being on the corporate payroll (the previous whiner label) the latest whiners get on here, stand on their golden soapbox and spew their angry rhetoric for all to hear. So, now I'm lumped in as an 'apologist'. Well, read my other posts, which admittedly are few. You'll quickly see that as an 'apologist' I readily identified the areas in which I was let down by equipment.

So to truly take on the role of apologist...so sorry you can't get your equipment hooked up correctly. Perhaps you don't meet spec on your wiring, perhaps you do have a faulty box, perhaps you can't read directions. Whatever the reason, your let down. Considering how unlucky you've been with your system(s), I'd have to guess that you've got something wrong on your side. Oh, but you whiners couldn't take the heat for trying to force the system through your underrated cables or whatever it is your doing wrong. Those who have had few problems generally speaking have no need to find this site and post. Only engineering geeks like myself would bother. So, you whiners get on her and waah waah about how bad it all is, which obviously leads some to come to the conclusion that you must be right and must have a point. Fact is, given the customer base out there, those without problems must exceed those with them.

So here we are, you have your forum to whine, go with it. Am I a statistical outlier? Off the top of my head, I don't know how many receivers I've owned, I've made several upgrades and expansions over the years. Suffice it to say, every one has worked and with minimal problems....but then again, I don't mind reading the directions and making sure my equipment meets spec.

In closing, if you don't like it, leave. Make your vote with the dollars you spend. No apology, no defending. This is how the free market works, captialism in motion. Ain't America grand?
 
Oh, and maybe you should read...

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=46780
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=47270
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=26082
etc, etc, etc.

smroycro said:
So to truly take on the role of apologist...so sorry you can't get your equipment hooked up correctly. Perhaps you don't meet spec on your wiring, perhaps you do have a faulty box, perhaps you can't read directions. Whatever the reason, your let down. Considering how unlucky you've been with your system(s), I'd have to guess that you've got something wrong on your side.
 
people can read back to catch up

You know that it is completely unnecessary for you to 'quote' the entire text of what can easily be read by scrolling up the page. I'd better be careful about what I say, you may make a list and then post several threads that support your point of view....and mysteriously enough support mine too (doh!).

Before I climb back onto my soapbox, I have a question for you: Why do you blow things so far out of proportion (your ridiculous impossible to prove assertion that hold times increased exponentially)? I mean seriously, you need to get a grip, only state things that you can back up. If you can't back it up, do it like I do it....at least I offer some (of many) options and I don't have to resort to posting links to threads to do it!

Ok, I'll play by your rules for a little bit...in order, by the numbers:

1. Agreed, there are widely reported errors with the 921. Without posting a link to a thread (just scroll back and read) this forum is rarely posted to by people who have had no problems. There is NO NEED for them to do so, THEREFORE they are a SEVERELY underrepresented statistical group. Let me give an example you can follow. If I lived by a construction site and something fell from the sky (really from some clumsy worker up above), I could post a thread at a website saying the sky is falling. Others who live near or pass by constructions sites could experience very similar things and also post that the sky is falling. Another wise person could post to the site and say, hey guys, try to take into account the rest of us who have not been experiencing the sky falling (the majority of people) and therefore were not racing like mad to post our story (or nonstory as the case may be). Now I could get up in arms, and show people 100 posts telling of this horrible thing, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of people don't see the sky falling. Now it doesn't make me wrong about what I experienced, it just doesn't mean it applies to everyone, only a small subset. Chew on that for a while and let it digest before you hit reply, ok?

2. I just did bring it...

3. I read your post. I saw you left. I was making a general statement to you and other readers...vote with your wallet. My apology for not specifying that I knew you had already cast your vote....so to everyone but wmhjr...please vote with your wallet. happy?

4. oh wait, now we are going with a b c....geez!

a. I do believe the 921 was well worth the money I paid for it. It has worked great for me and I'm plenty happy. It has capabilities (beyond HD) that my other receivers could not do, I enjoy it.

b. I can only venture a guess on this one as I have NO DATA to back it up with...then again, you have NO DATA to back your assertion up. Sorry I couldn't limit it to a simple yes or no, can you forgive me?

c. *snicker* NO DATA yet, you say exponential increase, care to back that up. sorry, no yes or no on this one either.

d. NO DATA blah blah blah (you know what my follow up is...)

I'm really not a bud guy...more of a miller guy....anyway, I shouldn't stray...I will not dispute your 'facts' that people have posted here sharing the problems they have had. I recognize and acknowledge that what they have experienced is very real. Please please please use your highly skilled and technical mind to possibly acknowledge that people with no problems have no reason to search for a tech forum and seek solutions. People with problems post to try to find answers (or to share their woeful story). I know that you mean well, and your desire is to protect the consumer from the sad experience you have had. I'm here to give the rest of the story, the part where the porridge was just right, the bed was just right and no stinkin' bear chased me out of a house.

I don't really know what to say about the VOD fee thing because it isn't a part of my life AEP = no VOD fee. Now I guess I could find a little room to howl about the additional receiver fee. No, I leave that for you.

I pay more and get more. You've apparently had nothing but bad experiences. I empathize with you. I acknowledge the problems you experienced. I (and I firmly believe many more) have had nowhere near the problems you have had. As such, I felt like sharing. You have taken exception to that. You are entitled to it. I don't see the ending relationship you've derived; I have had great experiences, I pay for the service I get, I enjoy the service I get. If it were less than satisfactory, I would leave.

*sigh* Now what are you going to rant back about?
 
I do have the data.

1) Because I am a member of our franchise authority, I collected wait time and call abend data comparing cable and Dish starting three years ago. This was for cable board use in order to at least try to validate support capability of the cable company - not Dish. However, in doing so I collected and continued to collect the data. So, I can explictly reference exact wait times to the minute for the past three years. Sounds sad, but it was for a legit purpose. So sorry but the numbers are very real. We are talking about average hold times of <2 minutes in 2001, and >17 minutes in Jan 2005. Interestingly, the hold times remained fairly constant until late 2003 when they sharply increased (and have remained on an upward trend). Also, you incorrectly assume statistical significance with a lack of data. The comments about "SEVERELY underrepresented" are without foundation, actually only an assumption by you. And, you know how to start spelling assumption, right? Further, as for the 921 - COME ON!!! I mean, I've clearly acknowledged both here and elsewhere that some people get lucky and have no issues. AND, that if it worked correctly as intended it would be a REALLY great device. The problem is that for no apparent reason external to the design and release of the 921, it at least appears to be the most trouble prone receiver that Dish has released. Way too many people having problems with lockups, reboots, loss of sound, etc. And when they swap them out with replacement units, they still get similar behavior. And, that's with brand new RG6, no wiring issues, etc. So long as the user has it connected properly, the rest is up to Charlie. To be honest, I was initially sorry that I wasn't one of the "lucky" ones (such as yourself) who seem to have no problems with the 921. But, after continuing to read, after Dish discontinued it, etc, I think I actually am better off. The problems do seem to be around OTA - no surprise there. But, there are problems. They have not been fixed. Even Dish has admitted that there are problems they have not yet resolved. For you to assume that everyone having a problem caused it by inferior wiring or cabling is preposterous.

2) I saw absolutely no specs or technical explanations, so whatever you "brought".... Engineering IS my business. Your analogy about a construction site has no relevance.

3) As for compression, there are tens of sites out there which provide clear data about data compression comparing Dish, Direct and Broadcast which give explicit numbers showing the increase in compression. They are chronological, showing changes in Bitrate. Since you don't like URLs embedded, I'll leave that to you. Suffice it to say, however, that they have dropped. Also - I'll admit that in each case the compression calculation is "approximate" and only shows averages as compared to peak values.

4) The VOD thing you didn't seem to care about, because "you" are AEP. Fine. So, you think it's OK for Charlie to charge it to everyone else? The truth is that it is not. That E* definitely misleads the entire public about what it is, and tries to say "it's just like TiVo". It's not. There's no service involved.

So the summary here - not the rant - is that you threw out some comments asserting that people were too hard on Charlie. Then, when you got some differences of opinion backed up by facts, you resorted to getting personal. You seem to be far more concerned about "you" and keep your blinders on as far as any other problems. I personally, would prefer to see Dish start to return to the company it used to be so that some reasonable competition can be made. At this point in my area, (note that I'm only talking about my area right now) I'm seeing a huge turnover where Dish is losing subs. I can see this because every month I have to review printouts of new and existing cable move/add/changes and reasons categorized by program. One of the largest growth sectors at the moment is the "Dump Dish" program giving $25/month for 16 months for all those moving to cable from Sat (which, BTW I did not take advantage of - I wanted to directly compare Dish and Cable for a while - which I did). Of those, Dish is a 2 to 1 leader. This, with a cable provider still currently operating under bankruptcy. You fail to understand that the issue is NOT that some people are having great success with the 921, for example. The issue is that too many people are, and that the company has already abandoned the product.

No snickering or sighing here.
 
Finally!

Finally you elect to answer in facts rather than unsupported statements. You have to admit that unless you cite your source, your statements are unsupported....

I have no reason to question the legitmacy of the data you collected about wait times. I don't need to see the proof, but I think you can appreciate the fact that there is a peson out there who will not simply accept another persons assertions without question. The manner in which you presented your information simply begged for it to be questioned. In fact, it smacked strongly of somebody who needed validation that the decision that was made to leave E* was the right one.

Are you so stubborn that you won't even entertain the thought that content 921 owners are an underrepresented group at this posting site? One last time, then I won't be saying it to you anymore. People without problems have no compelling reason to post. If Windows ALWAYS worked the way it should, you think people would be going to the knowledge database to look up faults? The answer you already know...they wouldn't. So if you can see that relationship, can you see the one I presented? And the point about me making an assumption??? I believe it has merit. If you disagree, so be it.

I never assumed that the problems people had were with inferior wiring or cabling. I simply suggested it as possible sources for the problems you and others were experiencing. At no point did I state that this was the problem everyone else faced. That would be a simply ludicrous thing to say...which is why I didn't say it. Fact is, I said it to you as a smart alec thing to say. You truly were insulted by it, believe it or not....I'm sorry. I don't mind playing point counterpoint with you, so long as we aren't insulting eachother's moms....I see this as a left of issue, right of issue thing. Take that for what it is worth.

I simply bring the other side of the argument. I don't have the time or desire to dig into the detailed technical specs or drudge up the data. Please don't suggest I don't have the background or capability to do so, I won't waste my time trying to prove to you I have the background and knowledge. I will simply say that I have been working for years in two niche oriented software related fields....both that dealt with data trasmission, I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say, I merely questioned your unsupported statements. You answered them without exact numbers across the board (I didn't say you didn't provide any numbers just not numbers across the board, please don't feel compelled to do a data dump), but with enough information to show you had a source. bravo. The analogy was just that, an analogy. Of course they don't have any relevance, that isn't their intention. If you couldn't see the parallels (even in such a ridiculous story) I have to feel it is because your a little stubborn.

Once again...as perhaps in your view the only 'lucky' guy out there...I haven't had problems with my systems regarding data compression. The content that is delivered to my set has only done one thing consistently over time: Grow. More channels, more variety, more options, and yes, a little more money billed to me for these services. For what I receive, I think the price is fair. If I ever felt like I was getting ripped off, like you, I would go.

Before I comment on the VOD thing, please elaborate...How is DVR/PVR not like TIVO? You say it is not a service? People can record stuff, play it back when they like, pause etc etc etc. Sounds like TIVO to me. Please provide more about what you mean.

Please...you say I got personal? FYI, your the one who blamed me for making E* service degrade and so bad for other people. You going to say that is a fact? Or is it perhaps personal? I can see what I've done...been a smart alec while bringing up opposing points. Is that having blinders on? Have I said your dead wrong, have I suggested that there aren't really problems out there. I never put forth claims that people didn't experience the troubles they had, so I fail to see how I have blinders.

I'm afraid that the only way you or I will ever know what the failure rate is for the 921 and any other receiver is to ask Charlie for it. I got a funny feeling he won't share. Does this make him a bad evil businessman? No, it makes him a businessman. I'm sure if we called Dell, they wouldn't share their failure rates either. (Please note, this is an assumption, not an analogy and yes I know it has no relevance) Just using examples, I believe I'm entitled to it.

I do believe you when you state that E* is a 2 to 1 leader in the dump dish program. Given that you are in the business, I'm sure you know what this is called...churn. So, I'm sure there is a lot of churn out there right now. Quite possibly more than E* has ever seen. I'm willing to be there are a wide variety of reasons for it. Hopefully for Charlie's sake if they are service related, he'll make the necessary changes before he needs to file the company for bankruptcy. Change is good. It is what keeps businesses on the leading edge. I hope this is a wake up call for Charlie, being more competitive in the marketplace is good for everyone....but most especially the consumer. Another example here, get ready...US automakers went through the same thing in the late 80s through 90s. Foreign autos simply outclassed American. People voted with their dollars. Change took place. It was hard, it was expensive, in the end, consumers had a better product, oddly enough from all sources.

Your assumption about me failing to understand what the issue is...is wrong. I did say there were problems out there. Maybe I do have a little faith in E* and Charlie to fix problems. It really isn't too late. Too late for you, yes indeed it is. Frankly, it isn't too late for me, no problems...no fixes needed....no need to leave for a cable service I'm not interested in. What you term as abandoning the product...I suppose is accurate from your viewpoint. So they are switching focus to the 942. This is what happens every time a new item comes out. Long before there were two tuner receivers, long before the first DVR came out, long before the first HD receiver came out. When new stuff comes out, the focus changes. You realize they don't market the first receivers that came out, right? There is a reason for that....they aren't new, they aren't the focus. Sorry if E* didn't keep the 921 in the leading edge long enough, they made a marketing decision. In the end, it may have been a HUGE mistake on their part. We will see as time goes by.

OK, fair is fair, no snickering or sighing here either....oh, no Doh! as well
 
Thanks for the reasonable response.

Though I do take issue with the

smroycro said:
Finally you elect to answer in facts rather than unsupported statements. You have to admit that unless you cite your source, your statements are unsupported....

I also don't agre with several other comments you've made. However...

I do agree that there are probably more people out there having no major issues with the 921 than people having issues. People seem to be in three major groups (I've mentioned before). The first are those people having no issues - many of whom are not using OTA. The second are those having issues including requirements for reboots, etc - but are willing to live with it. The third are those who are having issues and are unwilling or unable to live with it. If you take a look on the forums you'll clearly see those different people, often with comments like "yes, I have to reboot it a couple times a week but I still love it" or "well, it's just like a PC - you have to reboot your PC all the time, right?" (unbelievably ridiculous analogy - I know Bill Gates would LOVE to have the control over PCs that run his SW that Charlie does over his receivers!). My point is that the product is 13-14 months old and STILL has these reliability issues for so many people - issues that cannot be explained by anything other than either defective product or defective design. Then, it's been replace before being fixed. All other variables have been removed. To be honest, the problems all seem to stem from OTA. It's truly unfortunate that Charlie doesn't compete in terms of HD network support. If only OTA were not a necessity rather than a luxury, the problems with the 921 wouldn't be so critical. So, Charlie fell down twice.

The VOD issue is a huge issue - make no mistake. You seem to believe that the Dish DVR functions are the same as TiVo. Absolutely not in any respect. There are fundamental differences.

1) First of all, you can opt to pay for lifetime support of TiVo rather than a higher cost monthly charge. Can't do that with Dish.

2) Next, TiVo is actually a "service". The TiVo hardware only functions completely when the TiVo "service" provides content and features. Examples include things like "season pass", selecting whether or not to record repeat broadcasts, the fact that when the program time changes, TiVo changes the scheduled recording time to insure that the right program is recorded at the right time, the fact that TiVo makes suggestions based on viewing habits, the fact that TiVo allows you to remotely schedule recordings from any internet capable PC if you're not at home, the ability to watch content from one TiVo on another TiVo using a home network, etc, etc, etc.

3) The Dish DVR is a great utility. It has a limited feature set built into the DVR itself, and gets absolutely no content or features as a "service" from Dish. The "point and shoot" recording off the program guide is simply a fancy VCR which only really marks the time and channel that your "selection" happens to reside at. That's why when programming changes, your selection will not. You will get whatever airs at the "old" time that your program "used to" air at. There is no NBR, no season pass, no ability to record only first runs (OK, maybe the 522 is an exception here but it doesn't work properly), no suggestions based on viewing habits, no remote scheduling, no home network, etc. To be clear, with the minor exception of a few things on the 522, there are no feature changes of any import between the original 501 and the newest DVRs.

4) Dish loudly proclaimed a few years ago when the released the 501 that a main selling point was that unlike TiVo there was no monthly charge. However, even though they provided absolutely no additional value, all units newer than a 508 have to pay a $4.98 VOD "Service" charge. For nothing. Unless you have AEP. Then, they deliberately mislead people in describing what it's for. I've had 4 different CSRs tell me that you need to pay the VOD fee in order for the pause, replay and record functions to work - and that they are enabled through the "service" provided by TiVo. Both technically and logically that is a lie - period. When you finally escalate the issue a bit higher, they finally acknowledge that they're charging you because "they can". I would have no issue with the charge, assuming they would provide at least "some" of the value TiVo provides. I would prefer not to have the charge OR the extra features. But, I don't want the charge WITHOUT the features. To be blunt - every single "service" that Dish is trying to charge for is built into the receivers that we already bought and paid for!

So, an analogy. Let's assume that you buy a car from Acme cars with a built in electronic compass (not a GPS for simplicity). The compass requires no interaction with Acme or anyone else - it's all built in. Then, Acme comes to you and says that you need to pay $4.98 for the use of the electronic compass (though they have no involvement in it working). If you don't pay, they disable the entire car so it can't be driven at all. That is a perfect analogy. Dish disables the entire receiver if you don't pay the VOD. TiVo just disables the "service" if you don't pay.

Frankly, the 921 issues really ticked me off. Charlie failing miserably to step up to the plate about HD really ticked me off. But, the VOD fee convinced me that Dish is no longer an ethical company. Even though - like you - I was AEP, I found no reason to trust a company that would behave with such a lack of ethics. For me personally, I can find absolutely no excuse for the behavior, and when I started looking deeper I began to see further cracks in the Dish foundation. Things like no real HD, the 921 issues, the decline in customer service, no clear road map.... That's when I decided that maybe Dish really was at best no better than cable and perhaps worse. When cable came along and offered me more services with better quality at a lower price and not investment or contracts, it became a very easy decision. Cable is less consistent across the country, so that decision is different depending on where you live. However, cable is making huge strides while E* "seems to be" falling behind further each day. The single solitary advantage cable has today is that rural areas with no cable coverage can get Dish (obviously terrain permitting). But, as cable continues to expand, that last frontier will be broached.

Finally, you are hopefully getting the idea that I don't just make crap up. Each position that I take will be backed up by cold hard facts. Justifying those facts for each point would take ridiculously long. In fact, I can say the same thing about your original post. You took the position that there was basically nothing wrong in E* land, and that anybody feeling differently were just whining. You didn't provide any substance as to why that was the case. You did make direct reference to since somebody "had so many problems" a logical insinuation was that the problem was with that persons home, wiring or cabling. In contrast, when I had both I even had a separate post which directly compared both services (Adelphia Cable and Dishnet) providing advantages and disadvantages to both so that all could see. It was factual and unbiased. And, data driven. The problem is that thus far all the data continues to point to a decline in value from E* and an increase in value from their competition. Not to say that E* doesn't provide value, but rather that the value continues to dimish over time.
 
wmhjr said:
First of all, you can opt to pay for lifetime support of TiVo rather than a higher cost monthly charge.

Not to disagree with your post, but you CANNOT do lifetime on D-Tivo's - ONLY the standalone units. (& since you are comparing E* to D* DVR's, you should keep the discussion apples to apples) You USED to be able to do this before D* took over the D-Tivo service & when it was $10/month - I DID pay the lifetime fee back then & am now grandfathered for life on my D* account, regardless of my prog package. Also unlike the standalone units, the "lifetime" is applied to my account, NOT my DVR(s) so I can swap units freely w/out worry about loosing my lifetime status.

Other than that, like the rest of what you said. :) :)
 
I was actually just comparing Dish to TiVo

Including the cable TiVo units and actually much less so to the D* units. But, that's a good point - and one that I wasn't aware of.

Thanks!

dishrich said:
Not to disagree with your post, but you CANNOT do lifetime on D-Tivo's - ONLY the standalone units. (& since you are comparing E* to D* DVR's, you should keep the discussion apples to apples) You USED to be able to do this before D* took over the D-Tivo service & when it was $10/month - I DID pay the lifetime fee back then & am now grandfathered for life on my D* account, regardless of my prog package. Also unlike the standalone units, the "lifetime" is applied to my account, NOT my DVR(s) so I can swap units freely w/out worry about loosing my lifetime status.

Other than that, like the rest of what you said. :) :)
 
I own two Dish 6000's and one 508 plus another basic receiver that I've had deactivated for some time (3900?). I seldom complain about my 6000's, though there are still some bugs in them because I've become used to them and trained my wife in the workarounds.
I'm disappointed that I don't have certain HD channels yet such as ESPN2, Starz HD, And cinemax HD. I have two set-top OTA antennas that work pretty well for my local HD stations but I'd still prefer to have them over the satellite.
If somebody shows up with a reasonably priced (sub $300) HD DVR that works pretty well and has all of the channels I listed above, I'll switch. I don't really care if it is a cable company, satellite company or phone company. I've thought about the 921 but according to what I've read, I wouldn't be all that happy with it so I didn't buy. Right now, I'm just in waiting mode. Whoever shows up with what I want, gets my business. Directv, Dish, SBC, Cablevision are not really all that loyal to me. It's just business.
 
wmhjr, I strongly agree with your position on "VOD" "service" expressed in post #31. Your list of TiVo services includes several that are actually features, such as NBR. Suggestions comes pretty darn close to being a service but in the end is another feature programmed into the box. What really allows it all to reportedly work so well is the more detailed and supposedly more accurate guide provided by your listings subscription service. A point in favor of DTiVo vs Dish is that the DVR fee is per account while Dish's is per receiver.

As for why AEP subscribers should care about the injustice of the DVR fee, there is a story I can't quite remember about a man who sees different groups around him being persecuted but each time says "That doesn't affect me." Then one day the persecutors target him and there is no one left to defend him.
 
Yup, some are features, some aren't.

An example of the service would be the remote scheduling capability, for example. TiVo has to host the infastructure and applications supporting web access and then propogate the requests to TiVos via the net. So, the TiVo unit has to have the hardware to support it, but it won't work without the service. If you check recent model TiVos, you'll often see a "basic" service level which comes with the unit at no charge, and then a higher level which has the monthly or lifetime charge. The basic level includes pretty much everything that the Dish DVR does for the most part. So, as you pointed out - with TiVo it's a marriage of service and hardware/software features built into the device. With Dish, it's only hardware/software. You really can't include the program guide, because everyone getting Dish service gets that at no cost.


BobaBird said:
wmhjr, I strongly agree with your position on "VOD" "service" expressed in post #31. Your list of TiVo services includes several that are actually features, such as NBR. Suggestions comes pretty darn close to being a service but in the end is another feature programmed into the box. What really allows it all to reportedly work so well is the more detailed and supposedly more accurate guide provided by your listings subscription service. A point in favor of DTiVo vs Dish is that the DVR fee is per account while Dish's is per receiver.

As for why AEP subscribers should care about the injustice of the DVR fee, there is a story I can't quite remember about a man who sees different groups around him being persecuted but each time says "That doesn't affect me." Then one day the persecutors target him and there is no one left to defend him.
 
being lazy here, so im only replying to the first post...didnt read any of the others.

But case in point:

If I am going to pay for something I expect it to work as advertised. The ads dont say:
100% digital quality, excellent customer service, and bugs every now and then in our software"

If you bought any thing else, and it had random problems (sometimes not even so random) wouldnt you take it back?
I expect when a company releases a product they should have 99% of the bugs worked out when they sell it to a consumer. If its not working right, dont sell it. Id expect problems if i were a beta tester, but this is "the best they have"
 
tivo

Thanks for the update on Tivo. I can see why a Tivo'er would like the lifetime option, as it would effectively pay for itself in two years. Guess if I was using that system, it would be the way I would go.

Aside from the fee side of things, I frankly didn't know much about Tivo or the level of service provided. I have to agree with you on this one. Tivo gives superior service for what they charge.

Rather than wax poetic on the VOD fee and how it is fair or unfair, the real question is: What do people do to let Charlie know that the fee for the 'service' is a ripoff? With the laundry list of services Tivo provides, it can clearly be seen that they indeed do provide a service. No further argument from me on that point.
 
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