Native Resolutiom Pass Through (Revisited #3)

[BCH]

The subject line says it all. I originally posted questions regarding this option back in 2006. Shown below is the original follow-up sent to technical support after the Charlie Chat. When no software was released a second attempt to converse with technical support was made and the results went absolutely no where. Is this an option any of you would like to have in order to allow your television to do the upscaling rather than the Dish Receiver?

From 8/16/2006

Native Resolution Pass Through

I sent the following question via email to Monday's Tech Chat. I received a response today.

Question:

During the last tech chat Dan Minnick indicated that native resolution
pass through should be implemented by this summer. Is the implementation of this update on schedule?

Reply:

Thank you for your e-mail. The Tech Forum is correct, we are on schedule for native resolution pass through.

We hope we have properly addressed your concerns. If you have further questions you can respond to this e-mail or access our online technical support at the following link: http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departme...al/index.shtml.

Thanks,

Rebekah S.
Technical E-mail Support
Dish Network

 

[SaltiDawg]

.. I originally posted questions regarding this option back in 2006. ...
From 8/16/2006

Native Resolution Pass Through

I sent the following question via email to Monday's Tech Chat. I received a response today.



Reply:

Thank you for your e-mail. The Tech Forum is correct, we are on schedule for native resolution pass through. ...

Was that exchange re any of the current receivers? Could not the then-existent receivers gone obsolete?

I have a top-quality TV but really have no problem with the quality of the image out of the VIP receivers.

 

[Jim S.]

Since the bit-rate and sometimes even the resolution are decimated compared to the original source material, I don't see what difference having native resolution pass-through makes.

 

[navychop]

Shall we add "on schedule" to "soon?"

JK. It's good to see this, as it has been so requested. But I'll leave the scaling to my Dish receivers.

 

[DishSubLA]

If the box upscaler is of good quality, one would have a very difficult time seeing any difference between the box upscaler (Dish) and good TV brand and model doing the up scaling. In fact, the Dish upscaler is of such good quality, that the Dish box upscaling is likely superior to a great many number of lesser brands and models of HDTV's. Further, a good HT receiver is going to have a far superior upscaler (with a Farujda or Anchor Bay chip, no less) providing a lot corrections for non-native resolutions.

Aside from the technical argument, there is "real world" experience to consider. Native resolution was of greater importance back when a lot of scalers were cruddy (like in some older DVD players). However, the Dish scaler seems of high quality. My TiVo has a Native Resolution option, but the TiVo scaler which I have set at 1080i for all coming out of the box, can provide NO REAL WORLD difference I can observe in either Native or 720p or1080i. However, there is ONE BIG DIFFERENCE: the Native Output for 480i or p is INFERIOR, which means the TiVo upscaler is doing a BETTER job than my TV.

This is probably why Dish hasn't moved on this, not to mention the screen going bonkers for a few seconds and changing channel resolutions driving the may kind old folk and non-techies NUTS and calling Dish to complain.

Other than the rule of native resolution is best to send to the TV, what is your REAL WORLD observation that is troubling you regarding this issue? I, for one, don't have an issue with Dish's scalers--the "K" series )and 922, I'm told) especially does a great job scaling. Today, native resolution is, as a rule, preferred--qualified today by an "if possible", but isn't the big deal it was YEARS ago nor is cause for consternation as it was a long, long, time ago. In fact, the best TV experience is letting your home receiver upscale, which means it is NOT sending a native or pass-through experience.

 

[Hall]

That's hilarious.... "on schedule" since 2006 !!! I seem to recall this from the Charlie Chat too and it would have applied to the 622 at that time, therefore it can certainly be implemented on the 722 and 722k and likely the 922.

As for whether or not it's needed or if the scaler in the receiver is good or not, that's irrelevant. Sure, it might be better than some TV's scalers but in other cases, the TV's is going to be better. Option, option, option... With this option, the user can determine which scaler to use.

 

[3HaloODST]

These days, receiver/external scalers tend to be as good or better than built-in scalers on most TVs. I like that DISH receivers can be set to a specific resolution. However, I wouldn't object to the option of resolution pass-thru, but as Jim S. states, resolutions are manipulated to non-standard resolutions in which the receiver can do as good or better than a TV at handling.

Even computers are moving on to doing their own scaling rather than letting the monitor/TV do it. For example, over the last three years, I have had four video cards. First was the 8800GT. When on DOS prompts and BIOS etc, resolution would be 640x480 or lower, while in Windows it would be native resolution. When I upgraded that to a GTX 260, even DOS prompts were native resolution as the scaler in the video card would scale automatically. Since then, I've had a GTX 460 and a GTX 560 Ti, which all use their own scalers rather than letting my monitors/TVs do the work. Personally I think it's better that way.

 

[DishSubLA]

Or how about the promise at the "Tailgate Party" Charlie Chat when Ergan promised the 222 and 222K would soon be getting an update so they too, like the 211K, could record as a DVR? That was quite a while ago and Jim was trying to talk over Charlie saying, "NO. no, now we don't, no, no." It was hilarious. I never expected it to arrive.

 

[DishSubLA]

That's hilarious.... "on schedule" since 2006 !!! I seem to recall this from the Charlie Chat too and it would have applied to the 622 at that time, therefore it can certainly be implemented on the 722 and 722k and likely the 922.

As for whether or not it's needed or if the scaler in the receiver is good or not, that's irrelevant. Sure, it might be better than some TV's scalers but in other cases, the TV's is going to be better. Option, option, option... With this option, the user can determine which scaler to use.

I agree and would welcome the option; I just don't see at as even on a tertiarry list of things for Dish to get moving on, unlike the XiP 813--let's hussle on that one.

IMHO, Dish probably thinks the few seconds or momentary loss of video that occurs when resolutions are changed due to changing the channel, is likely to cause folks to call the CRT's and waste time and be perceived as an inferior experience to those not in the know.

Dish just took away the feature to display OTA ONLY at 2-99 and leave the sat LIL's at the 4 digits. Now, this is a somewhat buried feature, yet they felt the need to remove it and the full guide with no picture, in an obvious attempt to remove anything that they thought could be perceived as an "inferior experience" or more "complicated" and less "user friendly" as one poster put it in another thread.

Now, TiVo offers the Native more as an acknowledgement that those "from my cold dying hands!" few remaining TiVo lovers are MEGA-power users who often hack (in the good sense) TiVo units and upgrade the HDD and do all sorts of techie weinny things that it appeals to their customers. Meanwhile Dish is the "meat and potatoes" crowd--for the most part--of kindly old folks and Joe Blow and Joe Sixpack (the same person?) and the kids who all just want to watch their TV and couldn't tell the difference from HD and SD (I exaggerate for entertainment purposes). My brother REALLY can't see the difference from SD to HD except that it is just "a little, tiny, bit clearer" and will never appreciate Native Pass Through. That is the DBS and cable crowd. "I want my TV and a what scaler what nativ or 1080i--I can't see know difference."

With that reality, I am not surprised if we never see Native Pass Through on the current boxes, and the HD formats/resolutions Dish uses are part of the standard HD formats and the TV's should be able to scale them if they were natively passed through.

 

[DishSubLA]

These days, receiver/external scalers tend to be as good or better than built-in scalers on most TVs. I like that DISH receivers can be set to a specific resolution. However, I wouldn't object to the option of resolution pass-thru, but as Jim S. states, resolutions are manipulated to non-standard resolutions in which the receiver can do as good or better than a TV at handling.

Even computers are moving on to doing their own scaling rather than letting the monitor/TV do it. For example, over the last three years, I have had four video cards. First was the 8800GT. When on DOS prompts and BIOS etc, resolution would be 640x480 or lower, while in Windows it would be native resolution. When I upgraded that to a GTX 260, even DOS prompts were native resolution as the scaler in the video card would scale automatically. Since then, I've had a GTX 460 and a GTX 560 Ti, which all use their own scalers rather than letting my monitors/TVs do the work. Personally I think it's better that way.

You make a good point as manufactures presume many of their HDTV's are going to be connected to an HT receiver with a Faroudja or Anchor Bay or other good quality chip fixing all and then sending to the TV. That is one reason they seem to feel very happy to continue to design on appearance and f#@k the tinny speakers on the HDTV's. And as for the smaller HDTV not being connected to an HT receiver: we all expect and accept lower standards on the bedroom, the kids rooms, the exercise room, etc., so blowing money on outstanding scalers for those TV's is just not economical. In the old analog days, I believe that SONY was the only TV manufacturer still spending $$ putting in excellent analog RF demods, while all the other TV brands had poop awful analog RF demods--they weren't spending the money there any longer--because people by then were watching TV through the cable or sat box and using the S-video or composite video input, NOT the RF tuner.

Today, it is the peripheral devices that have improved their upscaling quality and, while one may be able to see the difference using test patterns, in most cases, one simply can't see the difference in REAL WORLD TV viewing.

In time, I expect even the best HDTV makers to spend LESS on the built-in scalers and save money by expecting the HT receiver to do the better job. In the old days it really was "your HDTV has a better scaler," but that is not necessarily the case any longer. I have no doubt the Sony, and Samsung may have superior scalers (not compared to a really good HT receiver, however), but are we to expect the best scaling to come from what is on board a Vizio HDTV? I would take my chances with a Dish scaler over Vizio's.

 

[whatchel1]

Sorry I don't give a rat's A about having native pass thru. I have a better scaler in my Yamaha RX-V1900 than they most likely have in my 722K. My Panny 42" plasma may or may not have a better one. But they all have better scalers than most of the TV's I see walking out of Wally World. Let's face it that is where the majority of people are going to be getting their TV's (or some place like it). So I tend to think that if the unit was switching tween resolutions there would be a black transition and there would be calls to E*. Going what's wrong with your Sh**.
The above was personal opinion and no one related to this site or TV manufacture paid me to say it. Now if some one wanted to pay I'd talk to them.:haha:haha
The previous was a joke and nothing but one: except the part of I really don't care.
To bad we don't have a smiley for ROFL.

 

[SaltiDawg]

...
The above was personal opinion and no one related to this site or TV manufacture paid me to say it. Now if some one wanted to pay I'd talk to them.:haha:haha
The previous was a joke and nothing but one: except the part of I really don't care.
To bad we don't have a smiley for ROFL.

I''' bet it seemed much more funny at 2:25AM. lol

 

[Hall]

IMHO, Dish probably thinks the few seconds or momentary loss of video that occurs when resolutions are changed due to changing the channel, is likely to cause folks to call the CRT's and waste time and be perceived as an inferior experience to those not in the know.

Simple -- do NOT make native-resolution-pass-thru the default. Leave it on a set resolution. People who understand the option may select it and will also understand the re-syncing req'd when changing channels.

 

[KAB]

Simple -- do NOT make native-resolution-pass-thru the default. Leave it on a set resolution. People who understand the option may select it and will also understand the re-syncing req'd when changing channels.

But that still will not stop "the unenlightened" from choosing it, then complaining about it. When in doubt, don't give the option.

 

[BCH]

I brought this up again simply as an option for those individuals who, for what ever reason, wanted something other than the dish receiver to handling the scaling. There appears to be some concern, or should I say speculation, that a number of individuals will select the native resolution option and end up complaining to tech support because channel changes would not be as smooth as before. While that may happen it appears not to be of much concern to Direct TV, since their HD receivers had the native resolution option prior to it being mentioned to Dan Minnick in 2006. If you look on page 64 of the HR24 manual you will see the native resolution option still exists. Again, my question was originally raised, both in 2006 and today, simply as an option for the viewer. It would be interesting to determine why Direct TV has decided to include this option.

 

[dfergie]

I keep my Directv receivers on native, I like having that option...

 

[whatchel1]

I''' bet it seemed much more funny at 2:25AM. lol

1:25 for me Time Warp. Yep it late tonight just got back from some IT stuff & winding down b4 bed.

 

[whatchel1]

I keep my Directv receivers on native, I like having that option...

So is there a delay tween switching channels that are of diff resolutions?

 

[3HaloODST]

So is there a delay tween switching channels that are of diff resolutions?

I'm sure that would depend on the TV.

 

[king3pj]

I keep my Directv receivers on native, I like having that option...

I had Directv a few years ago and always kept my receiver on native also. There might be a slight delay while the resolution changes but I didn't think it was that noticeable. There is already a delay when switching channels on satellite compared to cable.The only reason I would really know it was switching resolutions is because there would be some lines flashing across the screen during the slight delay.

I would like the option to be able to turn native resolution on too. I don't want my choices limited because someone else doesn't know what they are doing. I would think people that didn't know anything about this stuff would just stay out of the options to begin with.

Next they should take away the option for SAP because someone who only speaks English might turn it on. I like having options.