New Direct TV & Tivo DVR Delayed Again

[cfb]

I think my point is borne out by the "upgraded to rvu compliant client software". Either the manufacturers wont care about upgrades for older hardware, or the customer will have to upgrade to a new piece of equipment.

The encryption is still irrelevant. It doesnt protect anyone from anything since pretty much any content is readily available from numerous sources. Its still putting a burden on the consumer. I had to replace two perfectly good laptops with new ones because the old ones wouldnt run the release version of directv2pc, even though the machines had all the hardware needed to play the video they werent hdcp compliant. As if there were a blooming cottage industry of people prying open their laptops to try and intercede on the playback from the video card to the screen so the content could be captured...

Same thing will happen with this. I have about ten pieces of hardware from pc's to xbox 360's to playstation 3's, all of which can play 1080p high def video but for one technical hangup or another, mostly revolving around content protection, they cant do that unless I jump through a hoop. Note that I can still do everything I want, I just have to make a nominal effort.

Silly. Once again Directv will have industry leading content protection that works with nothing else in the home unless its upgraded or replaced.

 

[ChrisK114]

Chris,
How do we know that the delays are on D*'s side and not Tivo's side ?

This is true. It was the combination of D12 and this at the time. Things are looking up now. I was having a bad day.

 

[stonecold]

I think my point is borne out by the "upgraded to rvu compliant client software". Either the manufacturers wont care about upgrades for older hardware, or the customer will have to upgrade to a new piece of equipment.

The encryption is still irrelevant. It doesnt protect anyone from anything since pretty much any content is readily available from numerous sources. Its still putting a burden on the consumer. I had to replace two perfectly good laptops with new ones because the old ones wouldnt run the release version of directv2pc, even though the machines had all the hardware needed to play the video they werent hdcp compliant. As if there were a blooming cottage industry of people prying open their laptops to try and intercede on the playback from the video card to the screen so the content could be captured...

Same thing will happen with this. I have about ten pieces of hardware from pc's to xbox 360's to playstation 3's, all of which can play 1080p high def video but for one technical hangup or another, mostly revolving around content protection, they cant do that unless I jump through a hoop. Note that I can still do everything I want, I just have to make a nominal effort.

Silly. Once again Directv will have industry leading content protection that works with nothing else in the home unless its upgraded or replaced.

Problem is that you comparing it to directv2pc which will be oboslete when rvu boxes start comming out. Directv2pc requires alot of umph to work. RVU protocol takes care of it. I heard that both ps3 and xbox were going to have rvu updates eventually new samsung tv coming out soon will have it build in along ith lg. with RVU everything is beging handled at the server end.

Directv2pc as we know it today is basically dead. expect to see better versions of it in the next year or so.

 

[cfb]

I disagree. It takes very little "oomph" to run directv2pc. Pretty much any dual core cpu system can decode mpeg2 and mpeg4. It was the requirement for hdcp and the stringent digital audio requirements that caused the problems.

So I dont think the problems are going to continue to be placing the onus for having compliant hardware on the customer and the associated costs. Fer crying out loud there have been plenty of standards around that will do the job and those still arent being adopted years later. The latest one that really only offers an encryption layer to make the content providers happy sure wont be adopted any faster.

Wrapping back around to the original tivo topic, it makes no sense to force an encrypted protocol on tivo as part of the deal unless the point is to make tivo back out because there were too many requirements. Tivo has gotten by for years sending content to and from pc's without these extra layers and nobody has sued them because they were the primary tool being used to rip off content. While interoperability with directv's other receivers and dvr's would be nice, I wonder how many households would have a mix of tivo's and directv dvr's.

 

[stonecold]

I disagree. It takes very little "oomph" to run directv2pc. Pretty much any dual core cpu system can decode mpeg2 and mpeg4. It was the requirement for hdcp and the stringent digital audio requirements that caused the problems.

So I dont think the problems are going to continue to be placing the onus for having compliant hardware on the customer and the associated costs. Fer crying out loud there have been plenty of standards around that will do the job and those still arent being adopted years later. The latest one that really only offers an encryption layer to make the content providers happy sure wont be adopted any faster.

Wrapping back around to the original tivo topic, it makes no sense to force an encrypted protocol on tivo as part of the deal unless the point is to make tivo back out because there were too many requirements. Tivo has gotten by for years sending content to and from pc's without these extra layers and nobody has sued them because they were the primary tool being used to rip off content. While interoperability with directv's other receivers and dvr's would be nice, I wonder how many households would have a mix of tivo's and directv dvr's.

Lets put it this way the new system using rvu I was able to play with and I grabed a old 1.6 ghz pentium M laptop and it an amazingly well it was like having a hr box infront of me.
Directv2PC cant even run on that system .


All I am saying is expect a change in how things are done. I dont expect the tivo unit to show up soon I am hearing christmas season for this year but it might just end up like the windows mpc tuner.

 

[cfb]

Thats a pretty old laptop, and chances are that someone with a laptop that old wont have a network capable of streaming HD content. Its unusual to find someone with a brand spanking new wireless N or wired 100Mb/s network with a 6 year old laptop.

Thats the big problem with streaming and why MRV gave a lot of us fits in the early cycles of the testing. Wont work on wireless G and wont work with older powerline, except in ideal circumstances. I had to upgrade my network to make it work right.

Tivo's current mrv/pc implementation is a transfer operation where you can start watching during the transfer. Not only will that work on almost any PC, it'll work on almost any network. And you can move shows off a dvr with a dying hard drive to another one, so you dont lose any. So pressing tivo to move from their current model to directvs model might sound fine on paper, but I still think it creates a lot of problems without solving many.

BTW, that pentium-m laptop would run directv2pc just fine if it had anything better than the intel integrated 950 graphics in it. I run directv2pc on a single core atom net-top box with an ION graphics chip in it. Takes a little while to get into the menu and pick a show but the video playback is surprisingly good once you get it started.

SD/MPEG2 content should play fine on an old laptop with the integrated 950 since that will accelerate the decoding in hardware. And with a highly efficient h.264 software decoder like Coreavc, it might even manage at least 720p HD content.

 

[stonecold]

Thats a pretty old laptop, and chances are that someone with a laptop that old wont have a network capable of streaming HD content. Its unusual to find someone with a brand spanking new wireless N or wired 100Mb/s network with a 6 year old laptop.

Thats the big problem with streaming and why MRV gave a lot of us fits in the early cycles of the testing. Wont work on wireless G and wont work with older powerline, except in ideal circumstances. I had to upgrade my network to make it work right.

Tivo's current mrv/pc implementation is a transfer operation where you can start watching during the transfer. Not only will that work on almost any PC, it'll work on almost any network. And you can move shows off a dvr with a dying hard drive to another one, so you dont lose any. So pressing tivo to move from their current model to directvs model might sound fine on paper, but I still think it creates a lot of problems without solving many.

BTW, that pentium-m laptop would run directv2pc just fine if it had anything better than the intel integrated 950 graphics in it. I run directv2pc on a single core atom net-top box with an ION graphics chip in it. Takes a little while to get into the menu and pick a show but the video playback is surprisingly good once you get it started.

SD/MPEG2 content should play fine on an old laptop with the integrated 950 since that will accelerate the decoding in hardware. And with a highly efficient h.264 software decoder like Coreavc, it might even manage at least 720p HD content.

No, it has an 845 intergrated graphics.

From what I got to play around with it wont have alot of the issues that directv2pc/mrv has as it capable of a sling like network condition aware streaming , the stbs and tvs in the perfered dtv will have deca adpaters built in or connected to TV s . al lthe new RVU based HD end points are deca built in so mrv etc is amaginzly fast .... if I did not tell you it was a rvu end point running off a rvu home house unit you would of sworn it was full fledge hr23.

I know it hard but I am just saying wait and see on this. RVU setups will blow away what tivo doing.

 

[cfb]

Oh I understand completely what its going to do, I dont need to see it.

The same problem remains. I dont get any of this goodness unless I buy the upgrade to SWM and DECA, or replace everything I own with deca-integrated equipment. And if my laptops are on a slow network I get degraded results.

I know you believe in this stuff and in a fresh new install with all the latest stuff, it'll be just great. Look swell on a commercial too.

Just wont work in most existing households without a customer paying for upgrades.

Rounding back around, if I cant just watch my shows where I want to watch them with minimal hassle, great setups wont matter to me. Tivo's implementation allows anyone with pretty much any modern computer and any network north of two orange juice cans and a piece of string to move shows around and watch them anywhere.

Further, I doubt anyone will buy the new directv tivo (if it ever appears) except for existing or former tivo users, who are most likely just fine with it working the way it works now.

I'm quickly coming to the opinion that directv doesnt and probably never did want a new tivo product. It was just something to keep the directv tivo users hanging around until some newer and better offerings came available from the directv dvr product line.

 

[Joe The Dragon]

Look at tivo premier . it is not what everyone hoped for it was late to come out and this is really a tivo issue. Some things i know dtv wants and tivo is not on board wiht like rvu-dlna compatibility. I bought the premier and then returned it 3 days later not work the money .

also the lack of tur2way in it was a let down for cable users as well.

 

[stonecold]

Oh I understand completely what its going to do, I dont need to see it.

The same problem remains. I dont get any of this goodness unless I buy the upgrade to SWM and DECA, or replace everything I own with deca-integrated equipment. And if my laptops are on a slow network I get degraded results.

I know you believe in this stuff and in a fresh new install with all the latest stuff, it'll be just great. Look swell on a commercial too.

Just wont work in most existing households without a customer paying for upgrades.

Rounding back around, if I cant just watch my shows where I want to watch them with minimal hassle, great setups wont matter to me. Tivo's implementation allows anyone with pretty much any modern computer and any network north of two orange juice cans and a piece of string to move shows around and watch them anywhere.

Further, I doubt anyone will buy the new directv tivo (if it ever appears) except for existing or former tivo users, who are most likely just fine with it working the way it works now.

I'm quickly coming to the opinion that directv doesnt and probably never did want a new tivo product. It was just something to keep the directv tivo users hanging around until some newer and better offerings came available from the directv dvr product line.

Well sometimes you just have to upgrade unfornately.

I am sure people did not like having to cash in there hr10-250 for a hr20/21/22 but technology moves on.
This is not dish where they often have to bring out new hardware constantly to support newere features.

But from your statements the new boxes could make you breakfast in bed and you find something to complain about.

 

[cfb]

It seems you're getting defensive and not trying to figure out the key message is that I'm trying to convey. Directv forcing tivo to embrace a content protection strategy thinly disguised as some sort of benefit does two things: delays the product introduction and forces the customer to pay extra money to get something they could have without spending a dime.

I'm complaining about directv launching new technology that most people cant make use of, when there are ways to deliver the same results without the customer having to open up their wallet and replace half the stuff in their house.

I'm also not talking about asking people to replace 10 year old hardware with something new. I had to replace a couple of 2-2.5 year old laptops to use directv2pc when the original alpha version ran just fine on them because it didnt demand hdcp and would do the decodes via cpu instead of gpu. I had to replace some perfectly good powerline and wireless G equipment with hard wires to get MRV to work.

In both cases content protection and doing something one way vs another even though both of those things made the products incompatible with a broad swath of existing customer equipment.

It tells me that directv doesnt ask the question "is this going to place a financial burden on our customers to implement and if so, is there a way to do it that would avoid that" when they make decisions. Thats unfortunate. It also tells me that directv was so pissed about people stealing their content years ago that they're going to carry that concern forward for a long time and its going to be job 1 with every service they offer. I think what they dont realize is that they havent really implemented a bullet proof encryption/content protection system, its just that the people who could break it can get anything they want from 20 other sources with zero hassle...so why bother with directv?

I have a funny feeling that as the industry moves to require everyone to have $3000 in new hardware to watch tv at home and meet all the encryption/content protection requirements, that a lot of people will just shake their heads, hook a laptop or set top box to their tv, and pay hulu $10 a month to watch whatever they want.

Its a crappy economy. A lot of people are unemployed and it'll take years for most families to recover from this once the economy gets started again. Everyone is looking for ways to get more for less money.

Bottom line here is that a $100 set top box or almost any recently made computer will decode at least 720p and most will do 1080p via hdmi to any recent model tv and all of it will work with the network people already own.

 

[stonecold]

It seems you're getting defensive and not trying to figure out the key message is that I'm trying to convey. Directv forcing tivo to embrace a content protection strategy thinly disguised as some sort of benefit does two things: delays the product introduction and forces the customer to pay extra money to get something they could have without spending a dime.

I'm complaining about directv launching new technology that most people cant make use of, when there are ways to deliver the same results without the customer having to open up their wallet and replace half the stuff in their house.

I'm also not talking about asking people to replace 10 year old hardware with something new. I had to replace a couple of 2-2.5 year old laptops to use directv2pc when the original alpha version ran just fine on them because it didnt demand hdcp and would do the decodes via cpu instead of gpu. I had to replace some perfectly good powerline and wireless G equipment with hard wires to get MRV to work.

In both cases content protection and doing something one way vs another even though both of those things made the products incompatible with a broad swath of existing customer equipment.

It tells me that directv doesnt ask the question "is this going to place a financial burden on our customers to implement and if so, is there a way to do it that would avoid that" when they make decisions. Thats unfortunate. It also tells me that directv was so pissed about people stealing their content years ago that they're going to carry that concern forward for a long time and its going to be job 1 with every service they offer. I think what they dont realize is that they havent really implemented a bullet proof encryption/content protection system, its just that the people who could break it can get anything they want from 20 other sources with zero hassle...so why bother with directv?

I have a funny feeling that as the industry moves to require everyone to have $3000 in new hardware to watch tv at home and meet all the encryption/content protection requirements, that a lot of people will just shake their heads, hook a laptop or set top box to their tv, and pay hulu $10 a month to watch whatever they want.

Its a crappy economy. A lot of people are unemployed and it'll take years for most families to recover from this once the economy gets started again. Everyone is looking for ways to get more for less money.

Bottom line here is that a $100 set top box or almost any recently made computer will decode at least 720p and most will do 1080p via hdmi to any recent model tv and all of it will work with the network people already own.

apparently you did not understand what I was saying.

Bottom line dont expect a tivo, they are not doing what we are askign and we are paying them. If you were my employee and I said you job is to jump up and down then your job is to jump up and down and not to ask me why.

lot of the problems that you faced with hdcp and directv2pc are eventually go away as the company is becoming less anal about it they had to be.

Everyone going to be converted over to mpeg 4 hardware and swim over the course of 3 years anyway.

People who want the mrv and etv first are going to pay to play just like any other early adopter. This tech is here to eventually convert a whole user base. you looking at it like well right now this and right now that ... Sorry right now doesnt matter as the the tivo box and the rvu based recivers are not even out yet. you can scream about right now this and that when there out. you comparing apples to oranges and saying that oranges suck because they are red and green in color and dont grow in florida.

 

[cfb]

Looks like we went off the rails with this discussion.

I honestly cant see directv sending someone to millions of homes to switch them out to a swm, without the customers having to pay for it. Of course, they might upgrade the receivers and lnbs but I'm sure there'll be a long contract extension applied.

As far as having to pay to 'early adopt' pc playback and mrv, I guess it'd be early adoption if directv had these capabilities years ago like everyone else did.

From the sound of things, Directv is going to keep marching to their own beat. I'm quite sure that the company will lose a big chunk of their customers to people just watching what they want to watch over the internet for a much lower subscription fee and the network/computers they already own.

Also sounds like the directv/tivo relationship is more of a master-slave situation than a partnership. At this point I have zero expectation of a directv tivo product ever appearing and doubt it'd be worth getting when its released. The last round of directv/tivo products were so badly hobbled and limited they werent worth much anyhow, and it seems the same situation is just going to repeat itself.

 

[stonecold]

It does matter when we started pc playback or mrv or who had it before us. Thought I never seen a product from dish as far as pc playback or fios , or comcast who are in my area.

You have directv and you decided to spend teh money and do all this before the product is even considered production . That makes you an early adopter, sorry you spent money but no one put a gun to your head.

swim will happen with mpg4 transition . Tech are supposed to be swapping out for swm when possible. As we started with the mpeg4 local markets and eventually as we convert more locals from mpeg2 to mpeg you will see more swm comming out. for customer who have to have swm right away soon the company will exten the mrv deal past the 4 test markets and for 99 dollars you get swim and deca equipment. which is quite a deal as I seen customers already get new swim compatable recievers for that 99 dollars .

I hate to tote the company line but the company being more then fair to our customers and also there no master slave issue with tivo tyhey are getting paid slaves dont get paid. So anything tivo will eventually be in breach of contract.

 

[cfb]

Cant take constructive criticism and its the customers fault if they're unhappy. Got it. Seems to be the directv way these days.

Wrapping back around to the original matter, why is a feature that nobody will be able to use for at least a year or two holding up the release of a product that was supposed to have shipped months ago?

 

[stonecold]

Cant take constructive criticism and its the customers fault if they're unhappy. Got it. Seems to be the directv way these days.

Wrapping back around to the original matter, why is a feature that nobody will be able to use for at least a year or two holding up the release of a product that was supposed to have shipped months ago?

It RVU is not holding it back but tivo from what I am hearing putting out anything. They were gearing up for a big semi private beta push and then just came to a screaming halt. RVU can always be added later but tivo making it a issue along with other things.


No its only your for one reason your the complaining about spending money on mrv and this and that when no one force you too. you wanted to play with it and you decided to spend the money on extra equipment on a service that still in beta and for the longest time alpha.

No one force you to use a BETA product I am sorry you feel upset over the money yo uspent but it just not the companies fault.

 

[slacker9876]

Sheeh, is there really no update on this? Is a new D* TiVo officially vaporware at this point?

 

[stonecold]

it say Q4 2010 in our system.

 

[uncrules]

With how good the HR24 is, I don't think the new Tivo is needed. I guess the only people who will be interested are the Tivo diehards.

 

[marquitos306]

E* can have Tivo it doesn't matter to me D* got it right with the new HR23.