New way to distribute Hi def video now possible

[TheForce]

A new video format has been in consumer development for a number of months now but the complete links to make it all work are just now possible.

The standard consumer HD video format was HDV and many camcorders were made for this format. It is basically an mpeg 2 video with 25 mbs bit rate and used a 15:1 GOP which is the main drawback as compared to the big daddy of HDCAM at 1 GOP and 100 mbs.
Yet HDV was still good enough for most. Now enter the latest video format AVCHD It is an mpeg4 version and has upped the ante of picture resolution to 1080i x 1920 (compared to 1080i x 1440 for HDCAM and HDV.

The new AVCHD (Advanced Video Codec High Definition does not use tape. It records directly to a hard drive or memory stick. The latest Sony camcorder comes with a 120Gb hard drive capable of recording 14.5 hours including DD5.1 audio. The image quality is phenomenal. The direct comparison between large format cameras and small format cameras has narrowed considerably with this new mpeg 4 technology.

Until recently the draw back has been work flow to go from the video in camcorder to distribution. Today you have two major systems tyo complete the process of shoot, edit, duplicate and distribute. Pinnacle and Sony Vegas offers solutions now that make the process fairly easy.
1. Shoot the video
2. Transfer the video files from the camcorder to the computer hard drive
(two options here: cable connection or memory stick swap)
3. Edit the content on AVCHD capable software.
4. Burn the video to a standard DVD-R or equal.
This DVD will not play in a standard DVD player. It is MPEG 4. However, it will play in a Blu Ray DVD player including PlayStation 3.

So, now we can shoot, edit and distribute high definition content using currently available hardware and software. Note that presently, there is no solution to play the DVD's in HD DVD playback equipment. You will need a different work flow using an HD DVD burner as well.


Siome of you may be thinking - why not just burn the content to a BluRay - R disk in a Blu Ray burner. Yes, this is possible and also is the preferred way with HDV content as it is mpeg 2. However, the cost of blu Ray disks for distribution is out of sight. They typically run $20 each while the DVD-R can be bought for as little as $.22 each in bulk. BIg difference and that is why I say this work flow is finally something that we can like. It makes the back end of HD distribution affordable.


I am excited about this new format. I expect to take delivery on my first AVCHD camcorder this week. Sony HDR SR 12.

 

[VinceT3]

actually hd-dvd supported this ages ago.. can burn an hd movie to a dvd and play it back in any of the hd-dvd players out there.. I know people that use it with the A2 & A3's

 

[TheForce]

I don't think you understood. The HD DVD ability to read SD DVD's is not what I'm talking about. It's the ability to read a standard DVD-r with HD content and play it output to your monitor in 1080p x 1920. Only BluRay Players have this capability, that is to read the AVCHD files.
In other words, if you put a DVD-r with content from the AVC HD into a HD DVD player it would look for typical 480p content in mpeg 2 VOB files, the standard DVD file structure which what I'm talking about would not be. The disk would not be read or yield a read error.
At this time the main sources for AVCHD are Sony, Panasonic and Canon. The software to burn a DVD-r to high definition files to be read on a BD player is supplied with the camcorders.

 

[Jim S.]

I don't think you understood. The HD DVD ability to read SD DVD's is not what I'm talking about. It's the ability to read a standard DVD-r with HD content and play it output to your monitor in 1080p x 1920. Only BluRay Players have this capability, that is to read the AVCHD files.

I too was under the impression that HD-DVD players could play HD video from an SD DVD-R, but Blu-Ray players couldn't. This is a very good thing if they can, but I wonder why it's never been mentioned before? Is it all Blu-Ray players, or only certain ones?

 

[TheForce]

Yes, Jim it can but the result will be a down conversion and it has to be in mpeg 2 file structure.

Use the Sony software to create an "AVCHD DVD" disk. This is the full quality (1080 x 1920) HD file on a standard DVD-+R. Unfortunately for now, these disks will only play back on the Sony BDP Blu-Ray player or Sony PS3.

If your HD DVD player lists the codec "AVCHD" then it will play the disks made this way. If your HD DVD player lists H.264 playback compatibility, then it is highly likely it will play it too, but not guaranteed. I have the XBOX 360 HD player as well as a Toshiba A30. When I receive the camcorder I will give it a try, as well as try on the Samsung BD -1400.

Officially, my BD-1400 from Samsung lists AVC Hd as supported. while the HD DVD players I have don't list it nor do they list the H.264 generic version name either.

The Toshiba A30 states that it will downconvert to 480P any mpeg 2 video at higher resolution.

Again, repeating, people can indeed build a distribution DVD in either HD DVD or BluRay from their blank media and a HD burner with appropriate software. The downside to this is cost. Being able to burn the 1080 x1920 FULL HD video using the AVCHD codec to a standard DVD-+r is what's exciting mainly because of the hardware and media cost factors.

Now what remains to be seen is whether a tower duplicating system will be able to mass produce the format. Somehow, I think this is where the chain will break for now. I will be able to burn a full HD quality DVD in even my laptop but not in the self contained tower duplicator. That will be another test I'll be running.

 

[diogen]

It's the ability to read a standard DVD-r with HD content and play it output to your monitor in 1080p x 1920.

Authoring HD content on DVD media to be played on HD DVD players was available before first BD players came out, IIRC.

Only BluRay Players have this capability, that is to read the AVCHD files.

BD's advantage is its ability to play AVCHD as-is, without any editing/re-muxing, just like it was recorded in the AVCHD camcorder.

Yes, Jim it can but the result will be a down conversion and it has to be in mpeg 2 file structure.

MPEG-2 is the easiest to do. No resolution downconversion required.

BD uses transport streams, HD - program streams.
Aside from this there is no difference in codec support on HD/BD.

Diogen.

 

[TheForce]

Jim S. I forgot one of your questions-

No, the support for AVCHD is only on BD players that actually mention this in the advance codec support. I don't believe all of them do. I think it became common to support this when Sony introduced their first camcorder with AVCHD recording which was early 2007 or late 2006.
You will see it in your manual listing on format support features.

The one thing I am not clear on is the distinction between the Sony flavor of AVCHD and h.264 since both file structures for AVCHD are *.m2TS and this is the same file structure used by HDV. I suppose they did that for a reason but presently, to do an HD program with HDV you have to burn / author BD media. It is only this AVC mpeg 4 HD content that can be burned to a standard DVD-+R media and be played back in supporting Blue Ray players. I know mine supports it and that the PS3 also supports it.

Another experiment I want to run is using video shot with my HDV camcorder HVR Z1U and see if Sony Vegas v8b can work with editing the two formats seamlessly to produce a finished video that can be output to AVCHDand burned to DVD-r. I've been doing a lot of reading on this lately and haven't seen this being done, but I would guess Doug Spotted Eagle has some answers on this. I hope to see him next week to pick his brain on how all this can work. Obviously this is important to me as I will want to shoot with two HD camcorders.

Diogen and others who claim to successfully distribute authored HD content on DVD-R for HD DVD player playback, tell us how you do it. The experts (Toshiba) claim it is not possible. Plus I could also use such a process.

You are correct that BD can use the included software to burn the AVCHD from the camcorder hard drive to a playable DVD-R in the supported BD players but I thought I already stated that. This is an excellent and cheap way to archive raw HD camera footage for later editing.

 

[John Kotches]

Diogen and others who claim to successfully distribute authored HD content on DVD-R for HD DVD player playback, tell us how you do it. The experts (Toshiba) claim it is not possible. Plus I could also use such a process.

THere's a whole thread dedicated to it over at AVS Forum, started by Joe Clark who lives nearby. He likes to edit OTA HD by removing commercials then storing then long term on DVD media for playback on his HD-DVD players. He's been doing this for at least a year and a half, probably longer.

Doing the impossible.

As an FYI, Toshiba's support desk isn't what I would call experts on the topic.

 

[rockymtnhigh]

Don,

I have several standard DVDs that have HD content burned on them in HD DVD format that play in 1080 resolution with DD5.1 sound. dfergie has darn near mastered the process of doing the HD conversion. They play perfectly on my HD DVD player.


BTW, what is your new recorder costing?

 

[diogen]

Diogen and others who claim to successfully distribute authored HD content on DVD-R for HD DVD player playback, tell us how you do it.

There are two issues here: dealing with AVCHD and playing hidef content from DVD media.

AVCHD is a Sony & Panasonic's baby. Not surprisingly, it is very BD friendly.
Advanced Video Codec High Definition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Storing hidef content on DVD media is very old. Since satellite/cable started broadcasting in hidef this was doable, using an HTPC as a player.
WME (Windows Media Encoder) and x264 were most of the time the codecs of choice.

When HD DVD players appeared, a tutorial was developed how to make them play MPEG-2 hidef content authored at home and burned on regular DVD media. John linked to that how-to.

The problem with other than MPEG-2 format is the specs of the stream (AVC and VC-1) that are under NDA (e.g. vbv buffer size). But if you really want to do this, look at this post and go from there
"Codec Wars" : The attempt of an objective AVC/h.264 versus VC-1 benchmark - Page 13 - AVS Forum

The bottom line is: if you just want to play what you recorded on your AVCHD camcorder - a BD player is all you need.
If you want to author/edit/assemble a video in hidef originating from an AVCHD camcorder, it is as simple/hard to do for a HD player as it is for a BD.

Diogen.

 

[TheForce]

Once again, I think for the fourth time now. I am not claiming hidef video on a DVD-r is impossible. Heck I know it is as I have done it too. However it has to be compressed at a bit rate that allows it to play without choking the player's thru-put limitations.

The whole point here( this thread) is doing the AVCHD codec to a DVD-r that is playable on the BlueRay system players.

There are many unique fancy ways to do interesting things but whether it is mainstream for the average J6P to do is a whole other ball game.

The AVCHD process, while still difficult and time consuming, in the end can produce a low cost, HD 1080 x 1920 DVD that is playable on the hi def DVD players most will be owning, Blu Ray.

I looked at the thread referenced and it says very little about AVCHD authoring. It is about how to create HD DVD. Some discussion on burning the HD DVD author to DVD-R but the results are still what we would call dismal. Stuttering and crashing. The other approach is to create the mpeg 2 version recompress and burn, what I have done, but it down converts the video to 480p for playback. The A30 even states this, while the XBOX360 HD DVD just does it without warning.
As I've stated before, the HD DVD authjoring, like BluRay authoring is quite possible but not marketable due to cost.
Being able to put program length HD video at full resolution that can be played back by the common person simply buying a new BluRay player is what's exciting to me.



There is not a lot of call for HD DVDs today. I suspect that will change by 2009. I see the AVCHD codec and mpeg 4 the gateway to being able to produce and distribute HD content at an affordable price for the little guy. The debate on HD-DVD is moot now and has about as much commercial value for distributors as is the argument that a betamax player can do a still frame without a noise bar!

Presently the trick in authoring is the software. This is now possible with Sony Vegas 8. Everything for the AVCHD is built in including a new burn to disk feature. The downside is the time to render the AVCHD output at 1080 x 1920. I did a 13 minute clip I had on my system that was captured from my Z1U in HDV and it took 3 hours on my dual core 2 2.66 Ghz computer. Sony Vegas 8 will burn the DVD with basic chapter stops. I haven't investigated the DVDA 4.5 yet to see if actual menus can be created with the AVCHD. Like the thread on HD DVD authoring, there are other AVS threads I have read that describe convoluted software mix to build menu structures for the AVCHD process. I'm hoping to KISS and just use my present editing tools, aka DVDA.

For now, building a simple single program DVD with chapter stops in AVCHD burned to a single layer 4.7 Gb DVD-r playable on a BluRay player is quite easy to do, not just from the video clips on the memory stick or hard drive from the AVC camcorder but also to edit with HDV and even upconverted SD DV clips and graphics within one software, Sony Vegas 8.

 

[John Kotches]

Don:

You said these two things:

Once again, I think for the fourth time now. I am not claiming hidef video on a DVD-r is impossible. Heck I know it is as I have done it too. However it has to be compressed at a bit rate that allows it to play without choking the player's thru-put limitations.

Diogen and others who claim to successfully distribute authored HD content on DVD-R for HD DVD player playback, tell us how you do it. The experts (Toshiba) claim it is not possible. Plus I could also use such a process.

So which is it?

You aren't consistent in your words at all.

The rest of this I cut and pasted and I'll post when I get home tonight.

 

[diogen]

AVCHD is not and never will be playable on HD DVD players as-is.
AVCHD in camcorders is real time H.264 encoding at 12-18Mbps with 15GOP. x264 encodes at half this rate produce at least as good quality streams.

Authoring content is equally easy for both formats (see second link in previous post).
HD DVD is dead. No authoring tool improvements will be on that side. BD tools will definitely improve.
Home HD authoring is as small a niche in hidef optical as HTPC in hidef playback. Will never make a dent in BD acceptance, I believe.

Diogen.

 

[mike123abc]

I have Adobe's Creative suite. Encore is supposed to be able to author BDs (and DVDs). I have not had the time to test it out yet. I have done 1920x1080 editing in Adobe Premier, it has supported that for a few years.

 

[TheForce]

Yeah, Vegas was only supporting 1080 x 1440 until recently. I skipped v7 but I recall they added the AVC editing sometime mid stream V 7d I believe. I bought it but decided to keep it in the box until V 8.

I spent most of the day working on audio accessories for my new SR12. Finally got an impedance matching divider network to hook up my xlr audio to the stereo mini jack. It's working great now with a small volume control to get the audio perfect. I got this working for my wireless mics and now will need to
I may get some time to play with the post production side tomorrow.

Hey Diogen- I chuckled at your comment-

Authoring content is equally easy for both formats (see second link in previous post).

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I might have said it is equally difficult. But then I have to always consider the cost of these operations when doing it for a business.

I also expect to see the BD costs go way down over the next 3-4 years too so these methods to put the hidef quality on a standard DVD-r will become a thing of the past.

 

[diogen]

Hey Diogen- I chuckled at your comment-


I guess it's a matter of perspective. I might have said it is equally difficult.

True.
To be accurate, I did very little authoring but did a lot of encoding. Here is where it started for me
***The Comprehensive Windows Media 9 HDTV Encoding Guide*** - AVS Forum
It gets easier after you do the first 100 movies...

And then HD/BD trough a wrench in this hobby with secret parameter values. You can read more about it here
[HD-DVD Challenge] MPEG2, VC-1 and H264 with real uncompressed source movie - Doom9's Forum&

But if you really want to get there, you can...

Diogen.

 

[TheForce]

The people I work for are always seeking new markets. While it all begins as a basic long form advertisement, air time is the budget killer for most small businesses. The goal for me to to be able to get their programming in front of more eyes and ears than current cable markets. Video on demand accessed through a small businesses website is the ultimate goal. I have achieved this on a fairly impressive scale today with hassle free process, but it is still cable SD quality and for webcasting half that quality. I host an average of 40% of all my cable programs with the optional webcast service. My clients typically, just select the option at time of production as an add-on to their air time contracts. Its certainly no YouTube volume but it is a good revenue stream with little to no work at all except to cash the checks, bill credit cards once a month.
I see this as my ultimate goal after we begin to produce our content in HD. I believe we will be doing this in another 2 years as more and more people become HD mainstreet.
At that time I want to be ready with a slick process for producing a cost effective HiDef DVD as well as HD webcast. Today, I author about 8% of my programs to single loop play DVD's Half of those just have me make them a one off master they copy on their own. The others have me duplicate them at low enough cost that the client can give away to serious prospects for their business or service. Commercial TV programming on DVD give aways are very popular but cost effectiveness is imperative to work. The present BlueRay authoring, while now the standard, is still way too expensive to be used for this endgame distribution. Someday but the blank media and processing ease needs to be the same as SD DVD. TYhe AVC process I am talking about allows this content to be in distribution now. The only difference that remains is the rendering time to make the master. Experts are telling me that even with the fastest computers this time that is now 10-15 times SD mastering will only be half that. This is not a deal killer, but distribution with present day blank media cost for BD-r media is.

But if you really want to get there, you can...

Never doubted that! Kind of like saying Now I can make fire with a match. and someone else comes along and says, heck, we've been making fire with a spark from flint and steel long already!. For this to be mainstream, I'm looking for the match! It will do until the Bic lighter comes along.
Now that I have the match, I don't need to work with flint and steel.

 

[diogen]

The only difference that remains is the rendering time to make the master. Experts are telling me that even with the fastest computers this time that is now 10-15 times SD mastering will only be half that.

Being able to author the footage on a PC gives you quite a few options here (as opposed to hardware encoding).
According to Stacey Spears, modern HD/BD encoding is twice real-time (2h of encoding for 1h of footage) on computer farms in 1080p.
If you can use x264 for your encoding (the same person claims it to be better than any commercial H.264 encoder) on a beefy quad core PC,
you might lose another factor of two (unless you have really high quality footage and only the best will do). So 5h for 1h footage should be easily doable.
I think this should be negligible compared to the time authoring takes...

But I don't think a BD player will replace the DVD player in every potential customer office any time soon.

Diogen.

 

[TheForce]

You know what they are talking about with the term "Computer farms" don't you? I have that here with Vegas. One computer controls the process and then distributes the rendering on other computers. One Vegas license allows up to 3 installs for parallel processing in a "render farm" setup. Recall back in the early 90's I had 8 486 computers in a render farm system that could be controlled by 3D studio v4.

Anyway- I hear the 5 to one ration and believe that is OK. Heck, I have one project rendering now to some weird configuration for Comcast in mpeg 2 they gave me. We tested this last week so I can upload already encoded half hour shows to their media server direct, saving the cost and time of media delivery. This is my second go at installing media to Comcast server direct for cable airing. I'm apparently the first to do this. Had several hiccups along the way but I located a flaw in their information on I and b frame ratios that was just wrong. Once that was fixed they could air the files I was encoding. Anyway, that process from my timeline in Vegas takes about 4.5 hours to encode a half hour program on my Pentium 3.6 Ghz computer. This is only SD. I plan to invest in 1 or 2 faster computers later this year. Especially if this process works with Comcast, I may be doing it for our other Comcast markets like Richmond, Central Florida and South Carolina. By doing it this way, I can be in control of the initial start date for my programming. This is the final goal in digital media broadcast, IMO. Having content producers like myself be able to upload encoded media for broadcast. Of course YouTube and others have done this for web broadcasts but to my knowledge what we are now doing is pioneer stuff in TV. But FYI- the cable people will still review the content before they allow it to be scheduled to prevent inappropriate content from going out over their channel. You Tube doesn't do that until a complaint arrives. but they are unregulated.

I agree it will be a few years before the BD players are mainstream, but for clients who request the content in HD, It looks like I'll soon be able to say yes, this is the cost and not have them faint.

Of course that would assume I shot their program in HD. Presently I am still in SD cameras except for two now. If this little SR12 works out I may get started by buying 2 more and doing a small camcorder all digital (no tape) HD production kit shooting and editing in AVC. Sure beats buying 4 HDCAM rigs at $500,000 for the studio. The cost of adding two more SR12's with infrastructure is pocket change compared to even one of my big format cameras.

 

[theoak]

I don't think you understood. The HD DVD ability to read SD DVD's is not what I'm talking about. It's the ability to read a standard DVD-r with HD content and play it output to your monitor in 1080p x 1920. Only BluRay Players have this capability, that is to read the AVCHD files.
In other words, if you put a DVD-r with content from the AVC HD into a HD DVD player it would look for typical 480p content in mpeg 2 VOB files, the standard DVD file structure which what I'm talking about would not be. The disk would not be read or yield a read error.
At this time the main sources for AVCHD are Sony, Panasonic and Canon. The software to burn a DVD-r to high definition files to be read on a BD player is supplied with the camcorders.

XBOX 360 users have been buring AVCHD content to DVD and displaying that on their 1080P TVs for quite a while now.