Nimiq 5 launch and Activation Scheduled

[digiblur]

That was option number two then, going against the "single dish solution" argument.



That's some interesting info, thanks. I wonder if the price of Ka satellites has come down since DIRECTV bought theirs. I also wonder why Dish co-owns a Ka+Ku+C bird parked at 121W that they have never used the Ka-band functionality on. Echostar owns the Ku and Ka-band parts of Echostar 9, and while there are only two Ka-band transponders on-board, it seems like they should be used for something. If it's putting out power well, it would be a nice replacement for E12/R1 at 61.5W since it's rather weak in comparison to E11 at 110W.

You have to remember that Echostar or Dish does not own the C band side of the satellite at 121. And it's not detachable

 

[buckchow]

Recognize also that the deal with 77 W allows Dish to get into the Mexican market which should be expanding in future years. This provides Dish a growth opportunity in an area that does not have the cable competition like in the U.S.

Also something "Western Arc" Dish Network US customers should not be connected to in any way. Just for 77W, part of your monthly fees go into:
- Fees to Canada for using their space
- Maintaining a satellite and related resources for Dish Network Mexico
- "" for Dish Network Eastern Arc

After you've paid those fees that go into resources you don't or can't use, do you believe growth of the Mexican service will somehow result in Dish Network becoming a more affordable or higher-quality service in the US? People in the company may make money or lose money. As a Dish Network US subscriber, you will end up paying more no matter what. You shouldn't really want anything to do with the cost of running a TV service for Mexico from a Canadian orbital slot, especially when you aren't even allowed to subscribe to Mexican or Canadian satellite services if you wanted to.

 

[buckchow]

You have to remember that Echostar or Dish does not own the C band side of the satellite at 121. And it's not detachable

I did remember that . Didn't see any particular reason they couldn't some to an agreement on dropping a C+Ku band sat into that slot. Probably a few birds floating around that could handle the job, although I don't know for sure.

 

[kstuart]

If this is true, and Dish is unsuccessful in fighting the FCC over this policy, then they're going to need a bunch more capacity on the east coast. Unfortunately for them, they've gone and filled up their east coast resources with national channels. Considering their plans to add about 8-10 more national HD channels in the next few weeks, with more to come during the course of the year, the bandwidth shortage for EA is only expected to get worse. Either picture quality will go downhill or some channels will have to get bumped. You know which one of these it will be since SD quality on EA has been unsatisfactory from the beginning, more SD channels are being desperately squeezed onto transponders that already have 7 HD channels, and some transponders already have more than 7 HD channels on them.

If they want to make better use of 77W, they're going to need to use spotbeams. Echostar 8 has spotbeams and is parked at 77W, but those beams aren't being used for locals at this time. Your guess is as good as mine about why that might be.

You are reinventing the wheel and rehashing arguments that were settled months ago. Read some previous threads on Eastern Arcs. Meanwhile:

- The 2013 date is the result of Dish and DirecTV fighting the FCC, and successfully getting relief from the date being set as June 2009.

- Your math and your analysis of what is on Eastern Arc satellites is faulty. As explained, Dish is moving things off to 118.7 and moving E*6 to 61.5 will free up more transponders there for spot beam use. Also, a spot beam tranponder is used many times for different locations.

- The total number of currently available National HD channels that are not available on Dish Network represents a tiny fraction of Dish Network's bandwidth, and in fact, many of those channels are already on both arcs as "TMP" channels that are not available due to contract negotiations. Also, many of those new HD channels will replace the SD channels you are complaining about.

- E*8 spotbeams are not in use because they are designed for 110 and so do not fall on their designed targets.

 

[rocatman]

Also something "Western Arc" Dish Network US customers should not be connected to in any way. Just for 77W, part of your monthly fees go into:
- Fees to Canada for using their space
- Maintaining a satellite and related resources for Dish Network Mexico
- "" for Dish Network Eastern Arc

After you've paid those fees that go into resources you don't or can't use, do you believe growth of the Mexican service will somehow result in Dish Network becoming a more affordable or higher-quality service in the US? People in the company may make money or lose money. As a Dish Network US subscriber, you will end up paying more no matter what. You shouldn't really want anything to do with the cost of running a TV service for Mexico from a Canadian orbital slot, especially when you aren't even allowed to subscribe to Mexican or Canadian satellite services if you wanted to.

The validity of your argument is diminished when you get basic facts wrong. 77 W is not a Canadian slot, it is a Mexican slot. 72.7 W is a Canadian slot. You make statements about cost but can you provide financial numbers to show it is less expensive for Dish to lease space on Nimiq 5 than to build another satellite with that type of capacity at another slot. Dish leases at 72.7 W because they can not legally own a satellite at a Canadian slot such as 72.7 W or at a Mexican slot such as 77 W (at least over the long term). The Ka band satellites that DirecTV has were very expensive because they required very high power because Ka band is more susceptible to rain fade than DBS band. It is also quite obvious that a D1000 dish is less expensive to manufacture and to install than the large dish that DirecTV uses for its mixed Ka band/DBS service. Doesn't look like you have factored any of this into your financial arguments.

 

[HDRoberts]

Also, many of those new HD channels will replace the SD channels you are complaining about.

Excellent point on the EA. It is MPEG4 from the ground up. SD channels that are in HD don't have to be mirrored, as the receiver can just downconvert the HD version.

Seems like buckchow has been feed the DirecTV line too many times. Just because Dish is doing things differently doesn't make it wrong.

 

[buckchow]

You are reinventing the wheel and rehashing arguments that were settled months ago. Read some previous threads on Eastern Arcs.

I should probably do that. I'm sure some different aspects of EA have been discussed there and here.

Meanwhile:

- The 2013 date is the result of Dish and DirecTV fighting the FCC, and successfully getting relief from the date being set as June 2009.

That's almost generous of the FCC. They won't stop pretending satellites have infinite bandwidth, but that's almost generous of them all the same.

- Your math and your analysis of what is on Eastern Arc satellites is faulty. As explained, Dish is moving things off to 118.7 and moving E*6 to 61.5 will free up more transponders there for spot beam use.

I was using a combination of the charts on dishuser.org and live transport streams, both of which should be accurate. If I misread something somewhere, the numbers may be slightly off. If dishuser is inaccurate, then the numbers may be off by quite a bit.

As for opening up spot beams on 61.5W and 77W, 61.5W is being done by making internationals unavailable to EA subs, and on 77W is being done by launching a new satellite. One forces potential EA customers to sign up for WA, and the other is costly and takes time. EA has been live for months, and customers are paying for it, yet it is still only half built.

- The total number of currently available National HD channels that are not available on Dish Network represents a tiny fraction of Dish Network's bandwidth, and in fact, many of those channels are already on both arcs as "TMP" channels that are not available due to contract negotiations.

The TMP channels mostly appear to be placeholders these days since they have extremely low, identical bitrates. As an example, there are three of them on transponder 7 at 110W, each at 1.07Mbps. TMP channels normally carry a "Dish Network" logo screen when a service is not being uplinked.

Also, many of those new HD channels will replace the SD channels you are complaining about.

Are you talking about the new HD replacing the internationals, or the SD equivalents of the new HD channels being removed?

- E*8 spotbeams are not in use because they are designed for 110 and so do not fall on their designed targets.

Thanks. I'm still surprised by this info. I always thought the spotbeams could be re-aimed, or at the very least have the shape and/or size of the coverage areas modified once the satellite is in orbit.

 

[buckchow]

The validity of your argument is diminished when you get basic facts wrong. 77 W is not a Canadian slot, it is a Mexican slot. 72.7 W is a Canadian slot.

Sorry, I definitely forgot who owned that slot. I just knew it wasn't the US.

You make statements about cost but can you provide financial numbers to show it is less expensive for Dish to lease space on Nimiq 5 than to build another satellite with that type of capacity at another slot.

No, I suppose I can't. Aside from the fact that I doubt I could get a quote for a satellite from any manufacturer, I was basing my claims on historical evidence. With few exceptions, Dish Network has preferred to purchase and operate their own satellites. It appears that is changing. They have also historically been opposed to service duplication when it isn't necessary. That is also definitely changing too.

Both DIRECTV and Dish Network operate satellites at 110W and 119W, yet neither leases capacity from the other even though they technically could to some degree in order to save on resources. They probably don't want to pay one another, so they don't. The only good reason I can think of for Dish not wanting to become too invested in 72.7W is that they probably won't be allowed to operate or lease anything permanently from that position. Eventually, the Canadians will want to take back what is theirs. They also probably wouldn't have been allowed to launch a new satellite for 72.7W because the folks up north had already been planning to do that. I still want to believe that they would prefer to have their own satellite in charge at that spot (if for nothing else than to have their own spotbeams on it), but maybe that's not the case.

Dish leases at 72.7 W because they can not legally own a satellite at a Canadian slot such as 72.7 W or at a Mexican slot such as 77 W (at least over the long term).

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Both Dish and DIRECTV own satellites at 72.7W. They've been reclassified as Canadian satellites to satisfy regulatory bodies but they are being operated by Dish and DIRECTV, and if they return to US slots they are still the property of their original owners (unless they've been sold of course). I'm sure they have to pay just to be parked there, but I'm not sure how much. It's probably nothing compared to paying lease fees on somebody else's satellite though when you already have your own birds up there.

The Ka band satellites that DirecTV has were very expensive because they required very high power because Ka band is more susceptible to rain fade than DBS band. It is also quite obvious that a D1000 dish is less expensive to manufacture and to install than the large dish that DirecTV uses for its mixed Ka band/DBS service. Doesn't look like you have factored any of this into your financial arguments.

I haven't completely considered that, no. That's why I asked (wonderingly) if the price of Ka-band satellites has come down. They don't seem to be terribly popular, but that doesn't necessarily mean the price will be nearly as high as when DIRECTV's were built. As for the dishes and installs, customers either pay for those outright or have the price built into their service contract. That has been the case for many years, so that probably shouldn't be factored in at the same level as the satellites.

 

[mike123abc]

Ka is not popular because of the rain fade issues. As mentioned above DIRECTV had built super high power satellites and the ground dish is a bit large.

The number of subscribers to international channels and HD at the same time is probably a fairly small percentage. And of course there is a single dish solution for markets on 129 with the Dish 1000+. Moving the internationals to 118.7 really only hurts HD subs with LiL on 61.5 and 77 with a second dish required for locals. It is not a bad compromise to free up the TPs needed on 61.5.

More of 61.5 will probably have to go to spots (within the power limits of E12) to pickup secondary HD channels in markets already served. If 77 is a spot beam satellite they will have huge LiL capacity for EA (along the 129 type arrangement spots in the US and a Mexico beam).

Dish is going to be capacity constrained though until they get Nimiq 5 in operation and get the internationals off of 61.5

 

[nelson61]

Sorry, I definitely forgot who owned that slot. I just knew it wasn't the US.



No, I suppose I can't. Aside from the fact that I doubt I could get a quote for a satellite from any manufacturer, I was basing my claims on historical evidence. With few exceptions, Dish Network has preferred to purchase and operate their own satellites. It appears that is changing. They have also historically been opposed to service duplication when it isn't necessary. That is also definitely changing too.

Both DIRECTV and Dish Network operate satellites at 110W and 119W, yet neither leases capacity from the other even though they technically could to some degree in order to save on resources. They probably don't want to pay one another, so they don't. The only good reason I can think of for Dish not wanting to become too invested in 72.7W is that they probably won't be allowed to operate or lease anything permanently from that position. Eventually, the Canadians will want to take back what is theirs. They also probably wouldn't have been allowed to launch a new satellite for 72.7W because the folks up north had already been planning to do that. I still want to believe that they would prefer to have their own satellite in charge at that spot (if for nothing else than to have their own spotbeams on it), but maybe that's not the case.



I'm not sure that's entirely true. Both Dish and DIRECTV own satellites at 72.7W. They've been reclassified as Canadian satellites to satisfy regulatory bodies but they are being operated by Dish and DIRECTV, and if they return to US slots they are still the property of their original owners (unless they've been sold of course). I'm sure they have to pay just to be parked there, but I'm not sure how much. It's probably nothing compared to paying lease fees on somebody else's satellite though when you already have your own birds up there.



I haven't completely considered that, no. That's why I asked (wonderingly) if the price of Ka-band satellites has come down. They don't seem to be terribly popular, but that doesn't necessarily mean the price will be nearly as high as when DIRECTV's were built. As for the dishes and installs, customers either pay for those outright or have the price built into their service contract. That has been the case for many years, so that probably shouldn't be factored in at the same level as the satellites.

Deja Vu all over again. Directv just filed for permit to construct and launch a KA satellite to a new slot a 97W with Conus and Alaska service for HD. Directv 97W FCC Applicaton
http://licensing.fcc


I think it's all about controlling slots to supply needed capacity. Direct is going down a road they found works for them KU/KA. Dish is going down another road and sticking to mostly BSS KU and cutting deals with partners where ever possible to obtain more BSS KU space. Don't be suprised if you see them lease space from Spectrum 5.

 

[buckchow]

Deja Vu all over again. Directv just filed for permit to construct and launch a KA satellite to a new slot a 97W with Conus and Alaska service for HD. Directv 97W FCC Applicaton



I think it's all about controlling slots to supply needed capacity. Direct is going down a road they found works for them KU/KA. Dish is going down another road and sticking to mostly BSS KU and cutting deals with partners where ever possible to obtain more BSS KU space. Don't be suprised if you see them lease space from Spectrum 5.

Very interesting, thanks. DIRECTV basically has Ka-band sats rolling off the assembly line at this point, so it makes sense for them to be scooping up the very best remaining Ka-band orbital slots. I assume this is for their local HD expansion, especially since you mentioned Alaska.


I tried to find some Ka-band satellite costs and the estimates were about $300 million for each of DIRECTV 10 and 11. That cost is probably dropping since they keep making more of them.

Haven't found any figures for Dish's satellites, so I'd welcome any if anybody knows. However, I do have a few tidbits that go back to the original posting and linked document. I wished I'd noticed them before because this would have simplified the debate that we've had going on today:
- Initial lease payment = $50 Million USD
- Monthly Charges - medium-power mode = $175,000 USD Per Transponder Per Month ($31.5 Million per transponder over their 15-year contract, or $504 Million for 16 transponders)
- Monthly Charges - high-power mode = $350,000 USD Per Transponder Per Month ($63 Million per transponder over their 15-year contract, or $1.008 Billion for 16 transponders)
- Late Payment fee - 1.5% compounded monthly, or 19.56% per year

So, Dish can lease HALF of the Canadian satellite for the 15-year term for a minimum of $554 Million, and as much as $1.058 Billion (EXCLUDING taxes, Government-related fees, and any of the many other kinds of fees that can be billed to Echostar). If they are allowed to lease more than that, just watch those figures rise even higher.

I'm pretty sure this answers the question of why they had been purchasing and operating their own satellites prior to this. It also makes the cost of Ka-band satellites seem quite reasonable. Given the choice between 32 Ka-band transponders at a nice, central orbital location for about $300M and 16 Ku-band transponders for $500M-$1B at an orbital location that doesn't serve the whole country very well, I know which one I would prefer.

 

[buckchow]

Here's another tidbit that's news to me:

[FONT=geneva,arial,verdana][SIZE=-1]Andreas Georghiou, SES AMERICOM's Senior Vice President of Business Operations, said, "We have great expectations for the AMC-16 satellite, including 15-plus years of reliable performance. When AMC-16 becomes fully operational in the first quarter, it will enhance the services offered to millions of EchoStar's DISH Network subscribers."[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=geneva,arial,verdana][SIZE=-1]This quote is from a December 2004 press release. We are now over 4 years into the life of AMC-16. Echostar is leasing that satellite. It is located at 85.0W, which is a pretty good position for EA, and has 12 Ka-band spotbeams on it. It also isn't doing anything. They probably could have received permission to move this bird even closer to the EA slots to simplify things and never have to lease from the Canadians. Instead, it just floats up there, vacant and begging for a purpose.

The situation with the Ka-band payload on AMC-15 105W is the same. 12 Ka-band spotbeams that go unused. At least the Ku-band of that satellite has been used a little bit.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[digiblur]

Someone needs to do a little more research on things.

 

[MikeD-C05]

85 is sat that is supposed to be used for the echostar VIP service for cable companies . I saw it on the following satellite site and it is being used right now.

http://www.echostarfixedsatellite.com/

Check under satellite fleet and see all about AMC 16.

 

[digiblur]

85 is sat that is supposed to be used for the echostar VIP service for cable companies . I saw it on the following satellite site and it is being used right now.

Echostar Fixed Satellite - Home

Check under satellite fleet and see all about AMC 16.

Correct link Echostar ViP-TV - Technology

Also don't forget... Echostar isn't just in the residential TV business. Their KU fleet doesn't sit idle. No idea about their KA capacity though.

 

[buckchow]

85 is sat that is supposed to be used for the echostar VIP service for cable companies . I saw it on the following satellite site and it is being used right now.

http://www.echostarfixedsatelliteservice.com/

Thanks. Now I see all the Ka-band suspects (85W, 105W, and 121W)

I just wish they specified on there whether or not the Ka-band transponders are actually being used much or at all. These sats were supposed to be for Dish Network originally, so those transponders should definitely be possible to use for TV and probably aren't as desirable to the businesses they are currently targeting as customers.

 

[buckchow]

Someone needs to do a little more research on things.

I'm learning. It's a process, and it's part of the reason I'm posting more rather than lurking. I know a lot things, but I don't know everything, nor will I ever.

I feel like I've made a meaningful contribution to this thread in a number of places, most especially with the breakdown of the lease expenses a few posts back.

Funny how I was promptly getting attacked earlier for not posting evidence to back up some of my claims and speculation, but when I posted evidence on the most significant factor of money ($500M-$1B total costs to rent half of a Ku-band satellite from the Canadians) the post evoked no response.

Not the most friendly environment I'm encountering here considering I'm just trying to contribute.

 

[kstuart]

Dish needs to ...

Launching satellites takes billions of dollars, and takes years from conception to final testing.

In each case, you can be sure that accountants have run spreadsheets and compared different ways of operation (DBS vs Ka, leasing vs owning, two arcs vs one, old unused satellite vs new one, changing customer dishes vs changing satellites,etc.).

PS I assume that everyone is aware that nowadays, "EchoStar" is a separate (albeit related) company from "Dish Network".

 

[MikeD-C05]

Thanks. Now I see all the Ka-band suspects (85W, 105W, and 121W)

I just wish they specified on there whether or not the Ka-band transponders are actually being used much or at all. These sats were supposed to be for Dish Network originally, so those transponders should definitely be possible to use for TV and probably aren't as desirable to the businesses they are currently targeting as customers.

If you read up on the VIp service that was posted by Digiblur, it goes in depth explaining that the vip service is using the fleet of echostar sats for small cable companies that want to use echostar for their video services and set top boxes etc.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Correct link Echostar ViP-TV - Technology

Also don't forget... Echostar isn't just in the residential TV business. Their KU fleet doesn't sit idle. No idea about their KA capacity though.

The link I posted is a subset of the Vip Tv service under satellite services. They are both linked and go together.