Ongoing quality problems with 722 blamed on surge protector????

[treiher]

Well if anyone recognizes my posts, I've been most unlucky with these 722's. My third unit (2nd replacement unit) just died and now I have unit number 4 on its way to me.

722 Unit #1 - HD Audio Dropped out completely, SD Audio worked fine, after about 3 months of use. Also, bad problems with jerking/stuttering picture.

722 Unit #2 - After about 2 months of use, unit started randomly crashing and rebooting. Eventually, it stopped rebooting and was just completely dead.

722 Unit #3 - After about 2 weeks of use, unit started randomly crashing and rebooting, just like the previous one. 722 Unit #4 is now on its way from Dish.

When I called, tech support had me unplug it from the surge protector and plug directly into the wall, claiming the 722 is very sensitive to power requirements, and that certain surge protectors cause problems. Even though I've had a 622 and a 942 plugged into the same surge protector with never a problem, I went ahead and gave it try. The unit continued to crash, so I called back, and was told it must be too late, the damage is already done. But when I questioned her on this, she said crashing and rebooting is almost certainly a problem with the surge protector and not the receiver. When I pointed out that the first 722 did not have this problem, but a different audio problem, she swiftly pointed out that "all that bad electricity goes to the same place in the circuit boards which control audio and other things that can cause these problems". I simply bit my tongue and said thank you for sending out a replacement (I'm a EE, that was tough for me to do with this explanation). To their credit, they are sending it overnight and not charging me the expedite fee and even tossed me a little extra credit on my bill for the trouble, without me even asking for it. She really did feel bad for the trouble and was very nice.

But the more I think about this, the more I struggle with this explanation. Of course they are going to find lots of people who have problems with their receivers using surge protectors. Virtually EVERYONE uses a surge protector! I've seen other people here plagued with repeat problems and a lot of speculation goes on about power quality, proper grounding, proper ventilation and overheating, etc. But I think this has more to do with overall quality control and just getting unlucky, than anything. If this were really a likely explanation, wouldn't they start advising people not to use surge protectors?

I guess I wanted to post this whole rant on here in case anyone else is going through this. I like dish and I like the hardware, and now that they are finally adding HD content again, I'm content to stay. But swapping out receivers, losing recordings and resetting up all my preferences is really starting to get old. I just want a box that works and keeps working at this point.

 

[Fredinva]

I would say, don't plug the next one into the surge protector.
It's leased anyway.
I have had some issues with SPs.

fred

 

[Pepper]

That has got to be the stupidest explanation I've heard of in a long time (the CSR's not yours). Bad Electricity. I had to laugh at that one. I thought Bad Electricity was what a surge suppressor eliminated, not caused. There's a lot of software bugs to this day, and different revisions of hardware respond differently when the same software is running on them. The CSR is grasping at straws or something they heard somebody say at the water cooler and blaming bad software or hardware on your methods of providing Good Electricity to your equipment.

Unless it's a really crappy surge protector, which given that you're an EE I seriously doubt, I would recommend continuing to use it, or preferably a battery backup unit such as those from APC.

 

[shortcircuit]

I am a DishNet Tech and we were told to tell customers not to plug their HD-Dvr units into a surge protector unless when we test the cust. wall outlet it has an electrical grounding problem. Under those circumstances the customer is told to get outlets fixed ASAP or use at own risk. Usually a cust. has to sign off on something like that. If your installer didn't test your outlets or suggest not using a SP then that was his fault!

 

[treiher]

Yeah, the bad electricity comment really caught me off guard. I really struggle with this. I know that things can happen to the protector (i.e. weakened MOV) which will cause its ability to protect your equipment from surges to decline, but this idea that they actually cause problems by creating "bad" electricity is a real stretch. I did think about buying a UPS or APC device for it, but good grief, you would think the equipment would be designed to handle standard household current, given that they are selling their service to standard households.

Shortcircuit, I really appreciate your insight and at this point, the new 722 will not be plugged into any surge protector. However, if this were really a documented problem that is starting to establish a trend, and not using surge protectors is sound advice, why isn't Dish Network advising its customers of this? Why isn't there a flyer in big red letters shipped with each box warning customers not use one? I did have a professional installer do the setup, and he did use my surge suppressors. I believe he tested the outlets, but considering this house is only a year old, I would not expect a problem. I will buy a ground fault tester tomorrow though and test them anyway. Typically those are pretty cheap. But consider my original point that most people use a surge suppressor of some kind, because between the TV, satellite receiver, DVD player, A/V receiver, etc.; they have too many devices to plug into a single nearby outlet. A surge suppressor is also an outlet splitter, and people use them out of necessity. Blaming the surge suppressor sounds purely anecdotal, and not scientific at all, which is why we are not warned not to use them. The makers of these devices would be understandably upset about this type of recommendation without any evidence to back it up, which is what I believe we are dealing with here.

 

[haertig]

If your house wiring is incorrect, a surge suppressor isn't going to make things worse. It just won't suppress surges properly. Plugging a 722 directly into a house outlet that is wired incorrectly is not going to be any better than plugging it into a surge suppressor that is in turn plugged into that same incorrectly wired outlet.

Maybe the CSR was thinking, "Hey, some surge suppressors contain breakers or fuses, and if those are tripped/blown, then it might supply BAD electricity". "Bad" as in "none", I guess.

My EE degree is a couple of decades out of date now, but I'm still calling Bullsh!t on the CSRs explanation.

 

[treiher]

One other thing I remembered about my conversation with the tech support CSR person, which is also causing me some concern. She commented that most times, they get these boxes back and find nothing wrong with them! The problems I have seen typically take weeks, even months to develop. Once they surface though, they seem to be pretty continuous. But what if after being shut down for a long time during transit back to Dish, it takes awhile for the problem to surface again? Or worse, they find nothing wrong, call it a good or dare I say "refurbished" box, and send off to someone as a replacement. If any level of this is going on, that would explain why some people are having really bad luck. You start out with a brand new 622 or 722. If you get unlucky enough to have a problem, they start feeding you refurbished boxes which are not really fixed. So they keep recycling the same problem over and over. Of course I have no proof of any of this, but I keep reflecting back on that comment by the CSR, that most of them come back with no problems. I have a sinking feeling in my gut that this is going on.

 

[RandallA]

There is a video in youtube about the RMA process the E* receivers go through after they're returned to them. Sounds like their check process is pretty good but do they actually do it with every box?

YouTube - The Art of Service

 

[haertig]

She commented that most times, they get these boxes back and find nothing wrong with them!

This could mean two things, or more likely a combination of the two. Either Dish's incoming inspection/test process is no good, or, people are sending these DVR's in and there REALLY is nothing wrong with them.

[edit]In this case, "nothing wrong with them" means nothing wrong that can be fixed by trading in on a new unit. The new unit probably has the same problem.[/edit]

It's called the "NTF rate" ("No Trouble Found"). As a factory or repair center you want this to be as low as possible (duh!) You try to control it by constatntly improving your test process and also by teaching your technicians not to "shotgun replace" things and send stuff back to the factory unnecessarily. "Shotgun replace" meaning, "I don't know how to troubleshoot this, so I'll just replace everything - whether it's good or bad".

In Dish's case, it's probably more end-users (customers) that are doing the shotgunning rather than field techs. If the CSRs were better at diagnosing and repairing, and were more honest with customers about known problems, the shotgun rate would go down as well. When the CSR's say "We've never encountered that problem before", when in fact is is a known deficiency in their product, they're just killing themselves with the NTF shotgun returns. I think it's a stupid policy, but who cares what I think?!

 

[treiher]

There is a video in youtube about the RMA process the E* receivers go through after they're returned to them. Sounds like their check process is pretty good but do they actually do it with every box?

YouTube - The Art of Service

Thanks for the video link! That was pretty cool to watch and it is clear to me they do more than I expected, but also less in the way I was concerned about. I would be curious in knowing the NPF (No Problem Found) rate for various receiver models. They said some models have an NPF rate up to 40%! I would also be curious if any or all of the receivers I have sent back were tagged as NPF. Ofcourse, they have no reason to share any of that with me. My primary concern remains, what if it takes 8 hours or 8 days for the problem to surface? If it takes that long, they will miss it and it will wind up back with a customer. Only those receivers with those long test time requirements to find the problem will continue to miss and keep coming back, concentrating those problems in the refurb. pool being sent to customers. This could create the illusion that a specific customer has a string of bad luck or has something wrong, or dare I say, "bad electricity".

I hate the idea that Dish might think I am becoming a picky problem customer if I keep sending back receivers that get tagged NPF. The last thing I want to do is keep replacing recievers. It's a major pain and there is no benefit for me in doing this.

By the way . . . 722 unit #3 was virtually unwatchable last night as it crashed and rebooted every 10-20 minutes. But then my wife informs me it worked fine all day today. Once again, I could see that unit slipping past incoming inspection and winding up in somebody else's home. 722 unit #4 was just delivered today, and I'll plug it in tonight. Gosh I hope this next receiver works! I really, really do.

 

[8bitbytes]

A cheapo $25 surge suppressor does nothing to correct bad electricity and can cause more trouble than it is worth including fires. They are basically pseudo-legal extension cords that "might" protect you from a slight surge on the line from a near lightning strike or voltage spike, if you are lucky. If you want surge suppression, put a home supressor in the breaker box.

Residential electricity can be some of the worst electricity available and is very unreliable in more places than people realize. A line conditioner with true sine wave can clean things up but most people don't want to spend the money.

Did bad electricity cause the problem? Maybe not but a cheap surge supressor won't help matters. I have my 622 plugged into a 1000VA UPS that is line interactive and filtering with true sine wave output. I probably don't need it but I have no problems either.

 

[Pepper]

My primary concern remains, what if it takes 8 hours or 8 days for the problem to surface? If it takes that long, they will miss it and it will wind up back with a customer. Only those receivers with those long test time requirements to find the problem will continue to miss and keep coming back, concentrating those problems in the refurb. pool being sent to customers. This could create the illusion that a specific customer has a string of bad luck or has something wrong, or dare I say, "bad electricity".

After watching the video, I have no doubt that's exactly what's happening. Their test procedures appear to have nothing to catch the little niggly problems like these that sometimes don't show themselves for a while. It would not surprise me at all if the refurb 622 I'm using had been returned for some weird problem that the service techs couldn't find when they tested it, reloaded it with factory software and then shipped it out to me.

Problem is, it would surely cost more to thoroughly test a box than to just trash the mainboard and replace it.

 

[haertig]

Did bad electricity cause the problem? Maybe not but a cheap surge supressor won't help matters.

Nor will it hurt, unless as you say, it catches on fire. Or the ground pin is a dummy and it's not really grounded. But other than some far fetched improbable scenario, they do no harm. They may not do any good either, but they don't make things worse than they already are.

 

[treiher]

Nor will it hurt, unless as you say, it catches on fire. Or the ground pin is a dummy and it's not really grounded. But other than some far fetched improbable scenario, they do no harm. They may not do any good either, but they don't make things worse than they already are.

Agreed! That's my point exactly. I can clearly see how they might not do much good, but it's hard for me to see how a surge protector can harm a device. 8bitbytes, I thought about buying a UPS to help provide a more stable source of power, but jeez . . . like I said before, these things are going into homes for general consumers. They can't possibly expect people to be forking out bucks for a UPS because the receivers are so sensitive to the power requirements. Maybe it's the right thing to do to avoid the ongoing problems, but I'm still not convinced power supply is the issue.

 

[8bitbytes]

Those surge protectors have a circuit in them. I have seen very screwy things happen when they decide to fry.

No, I don't think Dish expects everyone to buy a UPS for their receiver.

HOWEVER

There are a few people who have bad electricity either becasue of something in their home or they are at the end of a line or a stepdown transformer is going bad that feeds power to their house. Hopefully, a NEW 722 will be all that is needed. But, if it doesn't work and neither do several others, think about getting a good test of your circuit.

 

[highdefjeff]

Here's the scoop in the field.

I have corrected many re-boot issues regarding surge protectors and electrical issues and have reported this for two years.

In regards to power supplies/protection equipment, the name to definitely avoid is Monster. All of those with this reboot/signal loss pattern where plugged into Monster power products in my case. Others have reported problems with some generic power strips.

With some Monster power products, it seems that they can be too sensitive to changes in electical potential and act to counteract the change. On a particular 522, I decided to investigate a little with my meter. I checked receiver output voltage with the unit plugged to the Monster supply and plugged into the wall. Without the satellite feed hooked to the receiver, and while plugged into the wall, it began searching 13v, 18v, 13v, 18v, in the normal timing, back and forth. With the unit plugged into the Monster power, the pattern of change was faster and not smooth, but erratic. Each time it tried to switch to a new voltage, it appeared as if the Monster power was acting to reverse the change.

In the case of bad wiring...

Hot neutral reverse will definitely produce a reboot/loss of signal in some receivers. One particular 625 was operating for about 30-45 minutes, then it would lose signal and reboot. This was my first encouter and on the 4th!!! visit I had gathered enough info to buy one of these:
Home Electrical Guide: How To Test an Electrical Outlet - ACME HOW TO.com
It showed the hot neutral reverse. An extension cord to a different circuit was used and confirmed the problem.

These are field observations and the resulting "fix". I wouldn't say "bad electricity" but I know that incorrect wiring and/or power fluxuations definitely cause reboot patterns in more than a few cases.

 

[treiher]

Here's the scoop in the field.
With some Monster power products, it seems that they can be too sensitive to changes in electical potential and act to counteract the change. On a particular 522, I decided to investigate a little with my meter. I checked receiver output voltage with the unit plugged to the Monster supply and plugged into the wall. Without the satellite feed hooked to the receiver, and while plugged into the wall, it began searching 13v, 18v, 13v, 18v, in the normal timing, back and forth. With the unit plugged into the Monster power, the pattern of change was faster and not smooth, but erratic. Each time it tried to switch to a new voltage, it appeared as if the Monster power was acting to reverse the change.

Thank you! That actually makes some sense to me and is something I never would have thought of on my own, but clearly your experience in the field offers tremendous insight here. I had planned to buy an outlet tester like the one you offered the link to and will definately get that done today. Just need to rule that out. 722 #4 is plugged directly into the wall now. No question it's a refurb. judging by the way it was packaged, and the nice scratch on the front of the unit. At this point, I could care less how it looks as long as it works. If I find a problem with the outlet, I will definately report back here. I think this type of discussion is useful. I am not the only one experience this type of repeat failure. If we can serve up some possible actions people can take, it would be worth while.

 

[vegassatellite]

Also, if your receiver is connected to a phone line, you might want to check if the receiver is stable without the phone line connected, unless you know how to troubleshoot unusual power flaws in phone systems. I had a customer who's 722 was rebooting constantly. I found that the phone line was causing 52 volts to cross the chassis of the receiver. It was probably screwing with the reference voltage that the receiver needs to operate properly. Outside at the telco entry point, the 52 volts was on the red wire, but it was on the green wire at the outlet.

 

[gadgtfreek]

They tried that on me when my new 722 kept rebooting. The tech told me the new boxes pull a lot of wattage and it is sometimes problematic, but I explained to him that I had it on an apc backup(was the only device on that strip) and wattage was not an issue. He finally gave up on that avenue, I think its just a generic troubleshooting procedure.

 

[8bitbytes]

Also, if your receiver is connected to a phone line, you might want to check if the receiver is stable without the phone line connected, unless you know how to troubleshoot unusual power flaws in phone systems. I had a customer who's 722 was rebooting constantly. I found that the phone line was causing 52 volts to cross the chassis of the receiver. It was probably screwing with the reference voltage that the receiver needs to operate properly. Outside at the telco entry point, the 52 volts was on the red wire, but it was on the green wire at the outlet.

Ah! Good point! Another connection to troubleshoot. As in computing, eliminate physical connections before looking into the software.