OTA help with channel 15

[dary0362]

Hi all,

I have a channelmaster 4228HD with channelmaster 7777 preamp, located indoors on a second floor (about 15 foot above ground). I have been trying to get channel 15, listed on my tvfool report (coincidently, there are two channel 15s on the report, I am trying to pick either one, but I figured the one coming from magnetic azimuth 231 degrees would be easiest)
but I can't seem to get it, which is frustrating. Does anybody have any suggestions, maybe on what type of antenna I should be using in place of my bowtie antenna? I can't move the antenna outside. Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Don_M]

The key to your dilemma is "can't move the antenna outside," combined with the weak signal-strength figures for WPSU in the dB (NM) – aka decibels above noise margin – column of the TVFool report. Most viewers with antennas mounted within their attics (and I am one of them) report that reception typically starts getting sketchy once signals drop below roughly 20-25 db NM. This is especially true of signals obstructed by hills/ridges (the "1 edge" and "2 edge" notations in the Path column). Ten decibels below "sketchy" is 10 times weaker than the consensus threshold. You have my condolences, but no antenna and no amount of amplification can overcome the handicap of an indoor installation in a situation like this. Until the 4228 can be mounted as high above the roof as possible, you can pretty much forget about receiving WPSU reliably.

 

[Tower Guy]

Hi all,

I have been trying to get channel 15, listed on my tvfool report (coincidently, there are two channel 15s on the report, I am trying to pick either one, but I figured the one coming from magnetic azimuth 231 degrees would be easiest)
but I can't seem to get it, which is frustrating.

WPSU is actually operating two transmitters on channel 15. In your location they interfere with each other. To pick up the strongest station, you need an antenna that nulls the second channel 15 transmitter by 15-20 db. By itself, a properly aimed 4228 has side lobes that are roughly 15 db below the main lobe. Channel Master 4228 The problem is that the attic scatters the signals and recreates side lobes even when the antenna by itself has sufficient rejection. This assumes side lobe performance of the 4228HD that matches the well documented 4228, but that's a bad assumption. Temporary page

For this reason I feel that there is no antenna for an attic installation that can be predicted to pick up WPSU. That said, there may be a location in your attic that does not add any side lobes in the direction of the weaker WPSU. That could be behind a chimney, or even a man made shield such as a large piece (4' x 8') of chicken wire configured to block the signals from WPSU's weaker transmitter.

On the roof the 4228HD is not the best choice. Consider a 91XG instead. It has a much tighter pattern.

 

[Bob2011]

WPSU has a special setup with a high power transmitter near Clearfield and a lower powered one near State College on the same channel. Unfortunately for you the lower powered one is more visible than the main transmitter. The biggest thing is to get the antenna close to a window facing either transmitter and if the window has a metal screen it should be removed. Also this antenna has a decent beamwidth so any large metal object infront of or off center on either side could reflect the signal back into your antenna and cause multipath interference.

You didn't mention the other channels in your area but how do they come in? It could be a clue to helping improve your situation.

 

[dary0362]

Thanks for the help guys! A multipath/interference scenario never occured to me. Actually, the antenna isn't mounted in a roof-its in a corner of a room where there are two windows. One window faces approximately west and the other south, and I have the antenna aimed at the low power tower out the south facing window.

Bob2011-I pick up channels 22, 24, 27, 29, 32 and 46 listed on my tvfool. Channel 22 is farther away and comes in really well (it's never dropped out), and that's why I can't figure out why 15 isn't coming in. I also pick up channels 7 and 13 with my C5 VHF antenna if that helps. Thanks again guys.

 

[chum1976]

I live near altoona and with a 91xg + preamp I can not pick up their crappy signal and my antenna is on the roof with no close obstructions. I get all of the stations you mentioned. I tried everything and had to install a fta dish for the PBS channels. They need a transmitter in altoona badly.

 

[Bob2011]

Thanks for the help guys! A multipath/interference scenario never occured to me. Actually, the antenna isn't mounted in a roof-its in a corner of a room where there are two windows. One window faces approximately west and the other south, and I have the antenna aimed at the low power tower out the south facing window.

Bob2011-I pick up channels 22, 24, 27, 29, 32 and 46 listed on my tvfool. Channel 22 is farther away and comes in really well (it's never dropped out), and that's why I can't figure out why 15 isn't coming in. I also pick up channels 7 and 13 with my C5 VHF antenna if that helps. Thanks again guys.

Well that shows your antenna is doing fine but probably confirms that the station has signal issues in your area.

Some TVs and converter boxes have the ability to manually enter a channel and see the signal strength before you can even get it. This would be a big help to see how close you are to getting it. The popular Zenith converter boxes can do this. Some boxes that require you to scan in new stations will pause or slow down when a station is close to being able to be locked in. This may help you in moving the antenna a few inches to get the station. Also you might experiment with tilting the antenna slightly up as the signal is bending over a ridge or other obstacle to reach you.

One other long shot is that if you are combining the UHF and VHF antennas there could be some signal loss/cancellation on that frequency. Make sure they are separated the right distance and test them independently to see if there is improvement.

 

[dary0362]

I have a Samsung LCD tv, and the tuner slows down on channel 15, but again, I've never picked it up. However it never shows the actually strength of the signal (on a side note, I was thinking about getting that channel master DVR...I think this shows signal strength. Maybe somebody can clarify that for me?). I experimented with tilting a few times- seemed to "slow down" even more on the tuner on channel 15, but I still didn't receive the channel. Also, I took down the VHF antenna a few weeks ago- I was pressed for space and the VHF channels were essentially repeater channels for the UHF stations I already received.

I was thinking about trying a 43XG antenna, kind of like Tower Guy and chum 1976 mentioned, to maybe fix the directionality issue. I can't fit a 91XG in this room, or else I would! Any other words of advice?

 

[sergei]

Hi all,

I have a channelmaster 4228HD with channelmaster 7777 preamp, located indoors on a second floor (about 15 foot above ground). I have been trying to get channel 15, listed on my tvfool report (coincidently, there are two channel 15s on the report, I am trying to pick either one, but I figured the one coming from magnetic azimuth 231 degrees would be easiest)
but I can't seem to get it, which is frustrating. Does anybody have any suggestions, maybe on what type of antenna I should be using in place of my bowtie antenna? I can't move the antenna outside. Thanks in advance for the help!

If the PBS station is a must have station then you might look into trying this approach to try to get the station by adding a second more direction UHF antenna like the AntennaCraft MXU47, checking you might find a smaller style, and then use a Channel Master UHF JoinTenna (model 0585-1) to block channel 15 from the original antenna. Aim the new antenna at the stations at the 219°.

This might work for you, but the cost may be the limiting factor to you as it’ll be around 80 dollars. So it will come down to how bad you want the station.


Combining or Stacking Two TV Antennas - Stallions Satellite and Antenna
Channel Master JoinTennas

 

[boba]

Thanks for the help guys! A multipath/interference scenario never occured to me. Actually, the antenna isn't mounted in a roof-its in a corner of a room where there are two windows. One window faces approximately west and the other south, and I have the antenna aimed at the low power tower out the south facing window.

Bob2011-I pick up channels 22, 24, 27, 29, 32 and 46 listed on my tvfool. Channel 22 is farther away and comes in really well (it's never dropped out), and that's why I can't figure out why 15 isn't coming in. I also pick up channels 7 and 13 with my C5 VHF antenna if that helps. Thanks again guys.

What is the reason for mounting in a 2nd story window? Please give us the circumstances limiting the installation.

 

[sergei]

What is the reason for mounting in a 2nd story window? Please give us the circumstances limiting the installation.

I was wondering that also, is this a house, a rental or maybe an apartment that he lives in.

 

[dary0362]

yep, its a rental...i don't want to have to fight to put the antenna outside. besides everyone here is suggesting some good alternatives to putting it outside, although I realize they may be long shots.

some questions for sergei:
1)the JoinTenna obviously joins the two antennas...is there a possibility the signals would cancel each other?
2)would the JoinTenna go before or after the preamplifier?
3)would i lose signal (db) if the JoinTenna is installed before the preamplifier?
3)I have a separate preamplifier...could I use this preamp with a new UHF yagi, join that antenna to my current setup after the signal from both antennas has been amplified, and would this have the same effect as the scenario you described?

Thanks again for everyones help

 

[sergei]

yep, its a rental...i don't want to have to fight to put the antenna outside. besides everyone here is suggesting some good alternatives to putting it outside, although I realize they may be long shots.

some questions for sergei:

1)the JoinTenna obviously joins the two antennas...is there a possibility the signals would cancel each other?

Shouldn't as the JoinTenna was designed to only block a single channel from one antenna, and that's why I suggested a more directional UHF antenna for channel 15

2)would the JoinTenna go before or after the preamplifier?

Before as it joints the two antenna together, see links I posted earlier.

3)would i lose signal (db) if the JoinTenna is installed before the preamplifier?
3)I have a separate preamplifier...could I use this preamp with a new UHF yagi, join that antenna to my current setup after the signal from both antennas has been amplified, and would this have the same effect as the scenario you described?

Yes you could us it since the output from the JoinTenna is a single output.It will help with both antennas.
The two links that I posted in my other posting should help you.

 

[dary0362]

the other preamp i have is not the highest db- i think its a winegard 8700ap

 

[sergei]

the other preamp i have is not the highest db- i think its a winegard 8700ap

Since most of the station are not that far you might not need the preamp and it may even be even causing more problems. I'd try without the preamp and then add it back in if there's no improvement use a second antenna..I reread your first posting and redid my previous posting.

You might also look at using a Winegard AP-4800 preamp which is only a UHF model.for the UHF antenna.

 

[dary0362]

Hey guys,

Just as a follow up, I got the 91XG and I am picking up PBS (channel 15) out of State College. I had to move the antenna from inside on the second story to the patio outside on the first floor. Seems to be coming in fine though...I am very happy! Thanks again for the help!