Picture quality?

[Charade]

Here's my setup. A 625 driving a (10 year old) Sony 36 in (4:3) CRT 1080i HDTV (no tuner, just a monitor) and a 510 driving a new 32 in Vizio 1080p LCD. To me (the wife probably couldn't care less) there's a noticeable difference in quality. I see many more artifacts (blocking on the LCD vs slight jaggies on the CRT) on the LCD than I do on the CRT. Is this normal for an LCD vs. a CRT or could there be a difference between the 2 receivers? We do not have HD right now.

I'm having Dish come out on Friday to upgrade us to HD and they're bringing a 612 to replace the 625 and a 211(K?) to replace the 510 (I own this and will probably sell it). If my understanding is correct, these are MPEG4 receivers and the two I have are MPEG2. Is there a noticeable difference in quality between MPEG4 vs MPEG2 or does this just allow DISH to cram more into their data stream because of the increased compression in available with MPEG4.

One additional issue I've been dealing with for a while is some channels, usually locals, are cut off on the sides (and sometimes the bottom). It happens on both receivers. Happens on both TVs. Well, I'm not 100 percent is happens on the LCD because I usually don't watch that but I do remember it happening on the old 27 inch CRT that the LCD replaced.

 

[sam_gordon]

I'll let someone with more knowledge comment on the picture quality between the CRT & LCD.

Regarding the local channels... what you're describing is probably what the station is showing. Although the stations have made the transition to DTV, a lot of programming is still 4:3. That should show up on a 16:9 set as "pillar box" (black on left and right). You'll see this on many commercials, many syndicated shows (Rachel Ray comes to mind), most soap operas, and possibly your local news. Some syndicated shows (Jeopardy, Dr. Phil, Ellen, and I believe Oprah) are all HD and should fill your 16:9 picture unless your local station doesn't have a way to record HD programming.

As far as black all the way around (should only be seen on some commercials)... some content is produced in "letter box". This takes a 16:9 picture, puts black at the top and bottom, and shows everything in a 4:3 window. However, since a 4:3 window (as I described above) will show with black on the left and right, you now see that picture in "postage stamp" format (black left, right, top, bottom).

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Charade]

I'll let someone with more knowledge comment on the picture quality between the CRT & LCD.

Regarding the local channels... what you're describing is probably what the station is showing. Although the stations have made the transition to DTV, a lot of programming is still 4:3. That should show up on a 16:9 set as "pillar box" (black on left and right). You'll see this on many commercials, many syndicated shows (Rachel Ray comes to mind), most soap operas, and possibly your local news. Some syndicated shows (Jeopardy, Dr. Phil, Ellen, and I believe Oprah) are all HD and should fill your 16:9 picture unless your local station doesn't have a way to record HD programming.

As far as black all the way around (should only be seen on some commercials)... some content is produced in "letter box". This takes a 16:9 picture, puts black at the top and bottom, and shows everything in a 4:3 window. However, since a 4:3 window (as I described above) will show with black on the left and right, you now see that picture in "postage stamp" format (black left, right, top, bottom).

I hope this makes sense.

I don't think I was clear on my previous post. Sorry for that. I'm not talking about black bars on the left and right (and sometimes top and bottom), I'm talking about content being cut off even though the image fills the entire screen. Sometimes words, images and people are cut off even though the image fills the entire screen.

 

[old corps]

IMHO, non-HD looks like crap on both your CRT and LCD HD TV's. Me thinks you'll be thrilled when you get HD on both of 'em. Now as to the SD programming that you'll still receive.............. To correct the problem with info being cut off you'll need to toggle through the formats available via the * button on your remote (bottom left). For HD programming you'll usually select NORMAL. SD programming will be a compromise, usually mine's on PARTIAL ZOOM---cuts off a little info but doesn't look too distorted. With the Sony being a 4:3 you'll have to choose between black bars or losing some info. Enjoy your new HD!

Ed

 

[Charade]

IMHO, non-HD looks like crap on both your CRT and LCD HD TV's. Me thinks you'll be thrilled when you get HD on both of 'em. Now as to the SD programming that you'll still receive.............. To correct the problem with info being cut off you'll need to toggle through the formats available via the * button on your remote (bottom left). For HD programming you'll usually select NORMAL. SD programming will be a compromise, usually mine's on PARTIAL ZOOM---cuts off a little info but doesn't look too distorted. With the Sony being a 4:3 you'll have to choose between black bars or losing some info. Enjoy your new HD!

Ed

Right now I'm watching my local ABC channel (Good Morning America) on my Sony CRT and even though it's SD, the picture quality is pretty good. There is virtually no blocking artifacts, just some jaggies if you look close enough. I just looked at the same channel on the 510/LCD and it's worse. More blocky compression artifacts.

I will wait to see what happens when I get the new receivers on Friday.

 

[sam_gordon]

Right now I'm watching my local ABC channel (Good Morning America) on my Sony CRT and even though it's SD, the picture quality is pretty good. There is virtually no blocking artifacts, just some jaggies if you look close enough. I just looked at the same channel on the 510/LCD and it's worse. More blocky compression artifacts.

I will wait to see what happens when I get the new receivers on Friday.

I'm assuming you're watching GMA over the air when you say the quality is pretty good, and off satellite when it's worse. The OTA signal is the best possible picture. Dish will receive the signal from the station OTA themselves, compress it, send it to Colorado(?), compress it some more, then put it on satellite. That's why it looks worse off satellite.

 

[primetimeguy]

Right now I'm watching my local ABC channel (Good Morning America) on my Sony CRT and even though it's SD, the picture quality is pretty good. There is virtually no blocking artifacts, just some jaggies if you look close enough. I just looked at the same channel on the 510/LCD and it's worse. More blocky compression artifacts.

I will wait to see what happens when I get the new receivers on Friday.

Have you calibrated, or at least used a setup disc to get your user settings close to correct? Sharpness setting would be a big one causing artifacts.

 

[chess]

Yes, this is a LCD vs CRT issue. It's less noticable from a distance or higher resolution. It's even worse if you stretch a 480 resolution to 1080 (no pillar box).

 

[Scherrman]

You'll notice more artifacts on an LCD compared to a CRT when watching SD content. That is why they have HD content. The larger the TV the more you will notice those artifacts also.

 

[Charade]

Have you calibrated, or at least used a setup disc to get your user settings close to correct? Sharpness setting would be a big one causing artifacts.

I have an old AVIA DVD and ran that but didn't like the results. I'm going to try the SpyderTV3 calibration system. I do realize that excessive sharpness can contribute to artifacts. It's set low but not at the lowest setting.

 

[ab187]

I see many more artifacts (blocking on the LCD vs slight jaggies on the CRT) on the LCD than I do on the CRT. Is this normal for an LCD vs. a CRT or could there be a difference between the 2 receivers? We do not have HD right now.

It's the nature of the technology. SD through s-video looks gorgeous on my Mistubishi CRT. Unsurprisingly the same model of receiver (625) and connection looks like crap on my 37inch HDTV.

 

[Charade]

It's the nature of the technology. SD through s-video looks gorgeous on my Mistubishi CRT. Unsurprisingly the same model of receiver (625) and connection looks like crap on my 37inch HDTV.

That seems to be my experience. I'm replacing both receivers with HD units that have HDMI and component connections. My older Sony has a DVI connection (HDMI capable with a converter) but I don't think it supports sound. I'd have to use a separate connection for that. My hope is SD content via the new receivers and connection will look better on the LCD than it does now.

My guess is the LCD s-video input just doesn't handle the analog video as well as the CRT input does. I knew this when I bought the LCD and actually evaluated 4 different models in my house and picked the Vizio because it was the best of the bunch.

 

[sethwell]

I don't think I was clear on my previous post. Sorry for that. I'm not talking about black bars on the left and right (and sometimes top and bottom), I'm talking about content being cut off even though the image fills the entire screen. Sometimes words, images and people are cut off even though the image fills the entire screen.

you may need to push a format button on your tv's remote. it may be in zoom mode, or it may be in the tv's menu settings. i'd look through the menu and look for an aspect ratio menu. that will help out if the image is being stretched and cut off.

 

[whatchel1]

Hold on

I'm assuming you're watching GMA over the air when you say the quality is pretty good, and off satellite when it's worse. The OTA signal is the best possible picture. Dish will receive the signal from the station OTA themselves, compress it, send it to Colorado(?), compress it some more, then put it on satellite. That's why it looks worse off satellite.

This is not always true. The OTA for NBC in my area is not as good as the sat version that I get from E* for the location where I have "moved".

 

[sam_gordon]

This is not always true. The OTA for NBC in my area is not as good as the sat version that I get from E* for the location where I have "moved".

But you're not comparing apples to apples, right? You're comparing your "true" local OTA NBC vs. an NBC from your "service" address, right? The only shows you can compare between the two would be network shows, and even then they could be using different encoders, one might be downconverting the HD from network (even if just to put in graphics), the local might be compressing on its own to fit more subchannels, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Charade]

I'm assuming you're watching GMA over the air when you say the quality is pretty good, and off satellite when it's worse. The OTA signal is the best possible picture. Dish will receive the signal from the station OTA themselves, compress it, send it to Colorado(?), compress it some more, then put it on satellite. That's why it looks worse off satellite.

Everything we get is satellite. I haven't watched anything OTA since I got Dish about 9 years ago.

 

[whatchel1]

Wrong

But you're not comparing apples to apples, right? You're comparing your "true" local OTA NBC vs. an NBC from your "service" address, right? The only shows you can compare between the two would be network shows, and even then they could be using different encoders, one might be downconverting the HD from network (even if just to put in graphics), the local might be compressing on its own to fit more subchannels, etc, etc, etc.

Now they may be using different encoders since I have never been in the one in Little Rock I know what was in the local one since I just left there recently as an eng. Neither downconvert to place graphics over the HD programming. We have just put in a new graphic gen for weather just before I left. So the only difference would be the local does have 2 sub-channels. Other than that there would be the same. Now in a itlle over a month I will be able to compare a different OTA to the sat since I'm going to be moving to a new location.

 

[sam_gordon]

So the only difference would be the local does have 2 sub-channels.

THAT could explain it.

 

[ripnbigc]

Once you have HD, you probably won't watch much SD.

 

[dgray9]

We own both our 625 and a 510 and I have noticed increased artifacts (mosquito effects) since about mid-October.
This has been on Showtime and other specific cable channels owned by Universal and Time-Warner (not local).

I don't know if this is due to a software change by Dish or downscaling issue with the cable channels (or something else).
It is a subtle effect but definitely there.

This might affect the quality of the picture you are observing on your Vizio at the present time.