Really don't know what's wrong

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shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Been on here moaning and groaning before. Hope this is something simple.
Experience: novice

equipment: 10' mesh button hook disk, Ventura 24" actuator, Chaparral Corotor
ll Plus, Norsat 8515 C band and Norsat KU 2707a, Uniden pusher.

My f/D is 37+. The calculations for setting the Chaparral calculate to 37+.
I had to put it to about 30 to get Classic Arts Showcase and the goodies
on Intelsat 9. Must be the old button hook dish causing this?

I have just started working with this new stuff and can pick up C-band on
G12 133 degrees W. and Intelsat 9 at 58 degrees W.
Lowest W sat is AMC 10 at 135 degrees.
Lowest E sat is Intelsat 805 at 55.5 degrees.
I tried to tune in AMC 11 and could get nothing. Even C-span analog
on tp7 didn't come in.
If more info needed just ask.
Thanks for any help.
 
stanleyjohn

stanleyjohn

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 25, 2010
1,892
30
south/central Ct,USA
Hello Shankle!I feel your pain on getting a new system to work correctly.In my case i think i finally got it set up good!getting over 25 sats and c/ku working very well from 30 to 133.It takes time and patients!In my case it was a combination of getting the declination angle,true south and the LNB adjusted correctly to get my results.I know its a pain!but it might be a good idea to go back to square one.Make sure your true south is set up correctly!check declination offset angle,and dish elevation angle at true south.Find a strong TP on your true south satellite and the move dish with the motor until strongest Q sig on receiver.I found out that if the LNB is not adjusted correctly it will make a difference of a Q sig of non to strong.It took me several trys to get my ku/c LNB to work well with both bands.I found out that i got my best results when i started with my true south sat then going west or east one sat at a time blind scanning each and checking to see how the sig was then slightly adjusting the declination angle if needed then rechecking the true south again.Its a bit of back and forth action till the arc looks right.Hope this helps! Stan!!
 
FaT Air

FaT Air

HOA Free Zone
Feb 27, 2010
6,668
914
97W 48N
best results when i started with my true south sat then going west or east one sat at a time blind scanning each and checking to see how the sig was then slightly adjusting the declination angle if needed then rechecking the true south again.Its a bit of back and forth action till the arc looks right.Hope this helps!
I whole heartily agree.
You must get the sat closest to your true south first, to get anything started in the right direction.
If your only getting the east and west side and nothing in between your polar mount angle and declination are way off.
Elevation and Declination Angles are always measured and applied when the dish is at its zenith, i.e. highest point in the arc, when the dish axis is aligned along the true north-south line.
To get started in the right direction you need your correct Polar mount angle and offset tilt(declination) go to this page Satellite finder, how to point dish with magnetic north, azimuth and elevation program calculator. and input your site lat and long. Adjust your mount to the indicated angles, and find your most southern sat.
Before going E or W. adjust feed for highest Q .
Then move east or west, and at find the next sat,then the next if Q starts dropping off in either direction, rotate the polar mount on the pole slightly, find that sat using actuator, compare Q, if less, you rotated wrong direction. repeat, Pretty soon you'll have the whole arc.
This page may shed more light on polar angle, declination http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/decchartp.html
 
Last edited:
Anole

Anole

SatelliteGuys Master
Sep 22, 2005
11,819
13
L.A., Calif.
I agree

Especially the modified polar mount declination angles, at the bottom of that page.

Have you already posted some pictures of this dish and the feed?

Is it possible the button hook sags as the dish turns?
Some guy wires (anything that won't stretch - actual fishing lure steel cable comes to mind) might help.
Perhaps four of 'em, equally spaced.
AND, make sure the feed is centered on the dish, too! - :cool:

You made a point of getting the F/D correct, but did you tune the focal length?
When you can't tune the focus and peak the F/D independently, it's hard to optimize.
Best, is if the dish arms (or button hook) actually hold the feedhorn (easiest if you use an LNBF), and then the scalar floats free on the feedhorn.
(Tune the feedhorn for focal length without scalar, then put the scalar on and tune it for best signal quality.)
But, if the scalar mounts to the dish arms or the button hook, and the feedhorn slides into it, you're really handicapped on what you can adjust.
 
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Thanks guys for responding.
I have gone through the declination thing long ago. But I will set the dish at
my high point and do it again.

I haven't uploaded any pictures of this dish yet.

The F/D is not correct. If I set the Chaparral to the recommend setting
nothing comes in anywhere. To my understanding the focal lenght is
controlled by the button hook at 37+ inches.

The feed horn and lnbs weigh about 2 1/2 lbs. They could be affecting the
reception as I roll the dish. I will install the guy wires as Anole suggested.

The chaparral corotor ll plus is not connected to the scalar ring. I had to slide
the feedhorn in way past the recommended value for this dish to pull in anything.

I really hate to mess with the E/W adjustment or the declination as I did get
signal at the extreme W and E. This makes me think I am on the arc.

So this thread will be in limbo until I get the guy wires installed.
 
Last edited:
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
The list of my equipment is in the 1st post here.
Longitude - 82.50, Latitude - 29.10
Axis - .62 more than local Latitude
Zenith - 33.94 = Axis - 29.72 + Declination - 4.22
Been through this many times in previous posts.

Guy wires are now installed on the button hook pipe.

If I position the dish at it's zenith the LNB is 7' up in the air and 4' in from the
edge of the dish. NO way I can reach that to fine tune. Right now the Chaparral
is way in past the point it should be. Only way I could get c-band signals at
133W and 58E. The zenith is pointing to AMC 9 83 degrees W. It's KU and the
only thing for FTA there is "Retro Tv Network and Tuff TV" on 11735 H 4444.

So should I run it down to where I can reach the lnb and reset the feedhorn to where the
calculations say it should be and run it up to the Zenith and try again? Then try fine tuning
the Declination and Azimuth till I can pull in the stations on Amc 9(83 degrees W).

Don't get to technical with me as I am a novice.
By the way what is "Q" in the previous responses?
Thanks for all help.
 
turbosat

turbosat

SatelliteGuys Master
Dec 26, 2006
9,003
80
Oneonta,AL
You can run the dish down to where you can reach it, but you have to be really creative to imagine where it's going to be once you move the dish back up to true south. I'd borrow/buy a ladder, and get used to climbing, if possible. Just lean in a little and you can work on the lnb, and with a 10' dish you won't usually be blocking all the signal while you work-so you can watch your tv or meters to see what adjustments are doing for it. Be careful if you're not ladder-experienced.
 
M

mick d

SatelliteGuys Family
Aug 12, 2009
62
0
ne texas
I too have a 10' button hook and I have the guy wires attached. I fiddled with mine forever to get where I am now which is moderately happy, but I can't leave well enough alone so when it cools a bit I am moving it to another location so I can receive sats further east. To be able to work on the lnb if it is like mine loosen the bottom nut all the way to the bottom of the bolt allowing the dish to swing down and adjust your lnb then when you're done bring it back up to the top nut that you left alone and you should still be in adjustment. I did mine countless times to get to where I am now. Still had to use a ladder but was workable. btw "q" is signal quality.
 
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Thanks guys for helping.
I'm an old geezer and have images of falling into the dish and wiping another
one out. It won't hurt me except my pride.:eek:

I have a 10' ladder. How's this idea sound? Get the ladder as close to the
dish as possible. Tie ropes at the top and fasten them to a truck. Then if
I lean over the 4' necessary the ladder and me won't fall into the dish.
Can wrap one leg around the ladder for support.
Hopefully. Or as Mick said lower the dish a few dozen times.

This is also a very slow process for me as I am in Florida and just can't
stand the heat long enough to get anything done.
Let me know what you think please.
 
stanleyjohn

stanleyjohn

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 25, 2010
1,892
30
south/central Ct,USA
If I position the dish at it's zenith the LNB is 7' up in the air and 4' in from the
edge of the dish. NO way I can reach that to fine tune. Right now the Chaparral
is way in past the point it should be. Only way I could get c-band signals at
133W and 58E. The zenith is pointing to AMC 9 83 degrees W. It's KU and the
only thing for FTA there is "Retro Tv Network and Tuff TV" on 11735 H 4444.

So should I run it down to where I can reach the lnb and reset the feedhorn to where the
calculations say it should be and run it up to the Zenith and try again? Then try fine tuning
the Declination and Azimuth till I can pull in the stations on Amc 9(83 degrees W).

Don't get to technical with me as I am a novice.
By the way what is "Q" in the previous responses?
Thanks for all help.

I can see where adjusting the LNB at the zenith might be abit of a problem with you!But if you can safely use a ladder to get to the LNB it would be the best way.in my case !the 6 ft dish is mounted on the deck and with the dish set at its zenith i can reach over the dish from the side and adjust while viewing the sig on a tv.I found it hard to align the LNB for a good Q (Quality signal) unless i viewed the signal on a tv while adjusting!It took me many tries to get it right!and i still dont think its set up 100% but for now its good enough.Oh! You have two signal measurements on the receiver!one is the strength Which doesn't really vary much and the Q which measures the quality of the signal being picked up by the LNB and thats what you should be monitoring when adjusting LNB and dish for strongest signal.Getting a satellite on both ends of the arc and nothing at the zenith tells me that the arc still isn't set up right or maybe the LNB is far out of alignment. or both.You say you get a satellite on each side of the arc!Have you moved the dish to the next few sats in line and see if you get them also?If so you can keep going till you cant get anymore.If you get several more sats this way then i would think your LNB is set up ok and its the arc thats messed up.
 
FaT Air

FaT Air

HOA Free Zone
Feb 27, 2010
6,668
914
97W 48N
10 footers are usually very "Peaky" on Ku. the beamwidth may only be .5 degrees, meaning you have to be within .5 degrees to see any Q. C band beamwidth is may be 3 degrees. I think I'd try for the nearest to true south C band transponder,
and tune it up across the arc on C band. Then tackle Ku. It worked like a champ for me.
Q = Quality of signal from sat. Low Q means FEC is being used a lot.
 
M

mick d

SatelliteGuys Family
Aug 12, 2009
62
0
ne texas
Haha, the main thing is just be careful. Cuz in the end if ya get hurt none of it would be worth it.
 
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
To Stanleyjohn - I would venture to say that both are off. I know for a fact
that the LNB setting is not where it's supposed to be.

To FaT Air - The nearest C-band sat is Amc 3 at 87 degrees W from my zenith
of 83 degrees. I will make a few tries for KU then if that doesn't work then
do the c-band routine.

Thoughts on tying the ladder to a truck.:D
 
stanleyjohn

stanleyjohn

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 25, 2010
1,892
30
south/central Ct,USA
Take a look at this! It may be helpfull.
 

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S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Todays efforts.
Got up on a rickety scaffold and tried to get something on my Zenith on
Amc 9 ku (83d W). Got nothing. Amc 16 has nothing that's not scrambled.
Amc 3 c/ku has lots of stuff at 87d W. Didn't have any luck.
Got off the rickety scaffold and ran W to 135d to Amc10. Got the Chaparral
set to where it should be and pulled in HSN. The quality at this point was zero.
I then started playing with the Declination and the Azmuth. I managed to get
the Quality up to the low 40s but it was dancing around. Tried the next sat
at 133d W G12 and nothing. Ran the dish E to 58d Intelsat 9 and got nothing.
Heat was tremendous. Had to quit.
This is beyond my capabilities.
 
stanleyjohn

stanleyjohn

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 25, 2010
1,892
30
south/central Ct,USA
Sorry things didnt go well today!I also know what a pain the heat can be also!its been hot and humid here also which limits my time playing with the LNB in the early mourning!cant do it in the late evening due to those little blood sucking bugs eating me alive:(.How about a pic of your set up and a close up of the LNB!maybe we can see something that might be wrong.I still think you need to get something on your true center satellite!RTV (AMC9) does have a good enough sig that you should be able to lock on to in the KU band.Are you sure there are no trees blocking the view!This was the case with me.To show what what a pain it could be adjusting the LNB!I did alittle playing with it again today to get a better sig on 72w AMC6 and had some success with that but when i went to AMC 9 to watch RTV (Q near 60 normally) i got nothing! very low Q,so i had to go back and reajust the LNB back to where it was and RTV came back and i got a slightly weaker sig on AMC6.Dont give up!! Just take your time,and im sure with alittle help from your friends here you will do ok.
 
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Thank you Stanleyjohn,
I've been going at this since about January. Two dishes and several bad actuators
and a very bad lnbf (bsc621-2d). I just found out yesterday how
to get the Quality to do something. It has always been on zero. You say
60% but I was only able to get around 40% at 135d W. Maybe the signal
is weak there as I am almost at tree level. My Zenith isn't bothered by
trees at all.

I will take pictures and upload maybe tonight.
It's not pretty yet as I haven't painted it yet.

It's so difficult for me to do anything at my Zenith AMC 9 with the 10' dish and
it's dangerous because of the scaffolding.
MAYBE a good idea would be to try getting C-band on Amc 3 at 87d W. Only 4
degrees off my zenith. Then try doing the KU thing there also.

In your opinion what Qs should I expect 50, 60, 70, 80?
 
S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
Here are the pictures requested.
Hope they shed some light on the problem.
 

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FaT Air

FaT Air

HOA Free Zone
Feb 27, 2010
6,668
914
97W 48N
Zenith - 33.94 = Axis - 29.72 + Declination - 4.22
Lets check some math as I couldn't see the elevation to the sat as only 34 degrees
90 - (lat)29.1 = 60.9 (polar mount look angle)
But the declination will lower the dish's look angle;
60.9 - 4.22 = 56.68 should be close for your location

I then plugged in your location at Satellite Finder / Dish Pointing Calculator with Google Maps | DishPointer.com and got this.

Address: 29.1,-82.5
Latitude: 29.1000°
Longitude: -82.5000°

Satellite: 83.0W AMC 9
Elevation: 56.0° ----------- this is the look angle of the dish up from horizon - -
Azimuth (true): 181.1°
Azimuth (magn.): 186.0°

maybe the attached pic will help - -

As far as adjusting the LNB/Feed, you should be able to do that on a sat
on the east or west side that you can get. That doesn't necessarily need
to be done at zenith. That would hopefully lower the feed to a safe height
to work on. Check that the feed is centered, and stays centered when moved to zenith. adjust in/out for max q.

-N- please don't beat yourself up in the heat.
In this hobby patience is a friend.
Stay cool.
 

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S

shankle

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 10, 2010
338
0
florida
To FaT Air:
I have the analysis from Roberts in Calif.
For AMC 9 at 83d W - these are his figures:
True Azmth - 181.0, Elev angle - 56.1, Extreme Slope - 33.94 and Skew Twist
- 0.9.

I have Never used the Elev angle to set the dish. In the 3rd picture I have
always set the bar going across the picture to 29.62 degrees. Then set the
back of the dish circle to 33.94 or 29.72 + 4.22. Why is this approach wrong?

I don't know how to adjust True Azmuth. I have always used the TV to do
that with from true north.

In the past the Q was always zero. I got it to go to about 40% by messing
with the bolt that changed the lat. from 29.62d to whatever. Have no idea
what the Q should go to.

The chaparral is now set as close to 37 as I can get it and I can get a picture
on Amc 10 c-band.

Thank you for your time and patience.
 
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