Software Upgrades, in General

[HipKat]

Apple, with iOS. Google, with Android. Microsoft, with Windows 10. Dish, with the Hopper CUI. ALl of these companies have a few things in common and 1 is this irrational need to constantly upgrade software on a monthly basis. Why? When did this become some requirement for monthly updates?

Remember when Windows would release a new OS every Year or so, and then send out patches? Or when Android was just a yearly release? That seemed to work out pretty well. Release a major upgrade, then fix any problems while taking their time to create the next upgrade.

Now, every time one of these IT Companies sends out their monthly software package, things get broken. Well, maybe Android has a pretty good track record in this.

Sometimes things are unusable. Windows' last Creators Update cause some machines to not boot. And we all are completely frustrated and nervous every time a new Hopper update comes out.

I just don't understand it. Is there some demand for this that I or we don't know about?

 

[HipKat]

Before the CUI, the complaint about Hoppers was that they took a long time to download and program software, but we had a work around. Get the Dish up, solo/duo nodes mounted, run a line to the Hopper location and get it going while we'd get the Joeys in place and when it was all done, everything worked.

Now, since the CUI, it's been nothing but problems and every time there's a Software upgrade, old problems that weren't fixed still aren't fixed, are compounded, or if they were fixed, are broken again. This is creating a technician base that is frustrated and confused by multiple "work-arounds" that sometimes work and sometimes don't. A lot of techs are jumping ship for other companies that may have lessor equipment but also don't have all these problems. It's creating suspicious customers who are watching us struggle with installation issues and the only thing Dish does is tell us to report the issues. But nothing, not one thing is getting done about it.

On top of that, longer install times are affecting technician metrics and cause jobs to be lost or moved to other techs which means taking a financial hit and Dish refuses to address that issue, as well..

At what point does enough become enough?

 

[navychop]

I think Dish may well have screwed up once too often. If they can’t regain the faith of their current customers, they will lose them ever faster.

THEY SHOULD FIX CURRENT PROBLEMS AND STOP!

There is no real need for any updates beyond fixing what they’ve screwed up. They’ve ruined their lead in hardware with stupidity in software. Possibly beyond recovery.

It’s now beyond the cutting edge users. It affects their average joe now. WORSE, it now affects SWMBO. If Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.

Not to mention the loss of techs. Disheartened techs will not be at their best.

 

[Jackonearth]

Apple, with iOS. Google, with Android. Microsoft, with Windows 10. Dish, with the Hopper CUI. ALl of these companies have a few things in common and 1 is this irrational need to constantly upgrade software on a monthly basis. Why? When did this become some requirement for monthly updates?

Remember when Windows would release a new OS every Year or so, and then send out patches? Or when Android was just a yearly release? That seemed to work out pretty well. Release a major upgrade, then fix any problems while taking their time to create the next upgrade.

Now, every time one of these IT Companies sends out their monthly software package, things get broken. Well, maybe Android has a pretty good track record in this.

Sometimes things are unusable. Windows' last Creators Update cause some machines to not boot. And we all are completely frustrated and nervous every time a new Hopper update comes out.

I just don't understand it. Is there some demand for this that I or we don't know about?

Windows used to get a new version every five years or so. The thought of a new version of Windows every year was insane not too long ago. But Google or Apple (can't remember which) started updating their software every 5 minutes and everyone else followed. Now it's become a never ending race between all the tech players but I don't understand why Dish is in the race. You can't really compare DVR software with smartphones and computers and Dish isn't really trying to catch up to Directv or cable providers at this point. Directv doesn't even have a voice remote yet and Dish is already way ahead of everyone else. Comcast does update their X1 software frequently but the changes were always small and they've slowed down over the past year. At this point Dish should try to keep costs down and focus on keeping their customers.

 

[ncted]

Welcome to the world of Continuous Delivery. It is the idea behind regular updates to any number of web-based software products. In addition to Agile software development, which is intended to break tasks/problems down into the smallest possible work unit, means that software updates are smaller, but more frequent. In theory, this means bug fixes and new features will come out sooner and more regularly. In practice, I have no idea if this is the case. In the world of web services however, if you aren't providing CD, then you look like you are standing still in comparison to your competitors. Many software shops have gone this way, even if it isn't strictly necessary because it is the new, "better" way of doing things.

 

[TalonDancer]

Apple recently admitted that they could not maintain the yearly cycle of upgrades with significant new features, telling users that the next version of iOS and macOS would focus on stability improvements.

At least Apple doesn’t force software updates like Dish does.

It’s a pain, but when Apple downloads a new update for iOS onto your iPhone, or iPad you can delete it and stay with the version you have. And with macOS you can stay with whatever version you want. The main driver for upgrades is when Apple stops providing security patches — usually 2 versions back from the latest one.

In order to avoid the new bugs I used to advise friends to wait until after Thanksgiving before upgrading. Then it slipped to Christmas, then Easter. Now I advise them to wait until just before the next version is released, because it has had roughly a year to fix the worst bugs that were introduced in that version.

FWIW we are running iOS 10 on our iPhones (iOS 11 is the current version) and OS X 10.11 on our Macs (10.12 is the current version).

 

[KAB]

At least Apple doesn’t force software updates like Dish does.

Maybe not for OS, but Apple was (and mostly still is) "upgrade crazy" with iTunes...about every other day it seemed.

 

[TalonDancer]

Maybe not for OS, but Apple was (and mostly still is) "upgrade crazy" with iTunes...about every other day it seemed.

I’ve been using Apple products since the early 1980’s. (I still own an Apple ][e and a Lisa.) In that time Apple has become increasingly pushy about upgrades, but they have never forced an upgrade on any of our Macs, iPhones, iPad, or Apple TV — at the OS level or even application level (e.g. iTunes).

For example, Apple regularly downloads iOS upgrades to our iPhones. But it doesn’t install them without explicit permission. And I can delete the iOS download — to stop the nagging for a few weeks. This gives me time to decide whether I want that upgrade or not. Yes, Apple’s being pushy is annoying, but not nearly as annoying as waking up to discover that Dish has downloaded a Hopper 3 upgrade and it is up to me to figure out what changed/broke.

Luckily this tech savvy community at Satellite Guys keeps me informed about when Dish dumped an upgrade on my Hopper 3. And more importantly, what Dish changed/broke. I can't avoid the bugs. But I at least I know they aren't a "personal problem".

 

[Foxbat]

Because the World is full of Black Hats who are more than happy to use your unpatched computing device into a means of making money for them, whether it be spreading SPAM, key logging your bank credentials, extorting your money to get your files back, or using your electricity to mine cryptocurrency. That's why people have to patch monthly.

Don't be a Pam Anderson, patch your devices...

 

[jerryez]

Most patches are security patches, that are required to stay ahead of the hackers. But Dish shouldn't need security patches

 

[comfortably_numb]

As far as Windows 10 goes, the updates seem to be every few nights, and they can often be 3-4 Gb. There are ways to disable automatic updates in Windows 10, but they aren't obvious to the common user.

I still run several PC's at my house with Windows 7 Professional 64-bit; updates disabled. They are as dependable as a solid rock. These PC's run processes such as my 24/7 OTA scans which get posted to the www.rabbitears.info server. I also use them to record audio. I have one dedicated PC running Windows Media Center, which records OTA broadcasts. These are processes that require the PC to be on 24/7 and not installing updates every night (not to mention the fact that WMC doesn't even work in Win10).

In the "real world," there are applications that NEED devices to work correctly 24/7 without the constant updating of software. These PC's running Win7 prove that it isn't necessary.

 

[HipKat]

So I posted this same thing on the tech portal, no Dish admin on weekends, but the tech's are blowing it up. Some of the replies:

I have to agree with Greg on this issue as a 10 yr vet of this company this is by far the worst I have seen with our tech.constant software updates I mean we have had roughly 8 updates since Christmas I mean come on.same issues exist we report them and report them .we post them on this forum which gets seen by everyone.love my job and when a customer asks me how long install treks I tell them the truth could be 30 to 45 minutes before rcvrs are ready to be used.at that point I am going thru the install for the second time double checking all I did to ensure a flawless install.most times all is good sometimes not it's a good thing I pay attention to other techs on this site so I can work thru some issues.this needs to be addressed and fixed .IT and who ever else needs to step up and fix known issues then we can move forward

And
Actually there's only been two updates for hopper1&2 and three updates for hopper3 since Christmas.

But definitely agree with what's being said in here. Need to fix what we have before adding more things. And before releasing new software, need to connect at minimum 5 of each receiver to wa and 5 to ea and run downloads on them.
And if there's issues then remove the update fix it and release it again.
Then test those receivers for a week to make sure all is well prior to final release.

Also
Took the words right out of my mouth. I’m a 19 year veteran in the satellite business. Been at dish exclusively for last 11 years. The tech turnover rate is at an all time high for any company I have ever been a part of. It all starts with frustration of download times. And only compounds when you repeatedly come across random software issues that make us look unprofessional and incompetent. Less production equals less pay. The bottom line is this, You get what you pay for. When a job is paying top dollar, they will get top talent. Better techs amount to more customer satisfaction. There is no shortcut around this. I would guess a ballpark of maybe 5% of people use all the extra apps and crap that they repeatedly shove on these hoppers. Usually a teenage kid. We need to address the issues that affect the actual Bill Payer , like basic functionality and like Greg said, leave it ALONE. ADD all the crap with the next line of hoppers. Give them an incentive to upgrade. Make one thing and make it well. The Hopper 3 has no competition except for itself! I elect Greg for the spokesperson for his movement.

1 from a "company" tech - that just had me shaking my head:
I understand your frustration but you have to look at this from a different perspective.

If we don't update the software regularly we wouldn't be the TECH leader in our field, then we wouldn't get as many customers, and without customers we wouldn't have jobs to be moved to other techs.

I know your on the front end assuring the customer understands that this is a technical issue and with all TECH there are always breathing issues but your there to resolve them so they don't have to later. As am I, be thankful though that we do have the best, and there are customers who want the best.

There is so much new software, applications and movement towards IOET we have to keep up or get left behind.

Stay positive mate, and rest assured they are working on fixes, patches etc

Then my reply
It just seems like the 2 sides are butting heads here. Dish is telling us to be patient and we're telling Dish us and the customer base are out of patience. Thank God I don't have PPH to worry about, but I'm extremely sympathetic to those who do because I know the worst thing that can happen is to have your pay affected in a negative way.

Regardless, my wish is that we could come to a point where Dish will acknowledge that the overall cost of these constant upgrades, both financially, reputation-wise and issues with tech satisfaction/retention that needs to be addressed. It's just my humble opinion, but I wish we could just stop, like posted above, concentrate on the problems.

No Joey Software
Black Screen Joeys
Excessive download times.
Dual Hopper install issues with operating the remote Hopper
Since it's on there, Netflix issues which breaks down to the erroneous reporting of Connection Speed on the Netflix App and the issues on Joeys
OTA playback and recording issues, primarily on the Joeys.
Missing recordings and skipped recordings on Hopper 3's, mostly - probably due to wrong info in the program guide.
STBH App not working on most devices.
OFSC on iOS devices

 

[Jim5506]

As has already been stated, most computer "updates" are vulnerability patches the help reduce the possibility of bad actors penetrating your computer and either stealing your personl info or hijacking your computer to run a DOS attack or other nefarious activity.

 

[HipKat]

As has already been stated, most "updates" are vulnerability patches the help reduce the possibility of bad actors penetrating your computer and either stealing your personl info or hijacking your computer to run a DOS attack or other nefarious activity.

Maybe true but the last Creators Update Windows released is cause certain SSD's to not boot properly, and causing issues with Chrome, although I think that's been patched, for example

 

[Jim5506]

The Spring creators update evidently was not properly beta tested. We had a DB admin whose computer was made toast (black screen with cursor only). Luckily we had done a clone of her hard drive last fall and we were able to recover most of her databases and rebuild her computer in about 5-6 hours.

I installed the Spring update and all it did was kill my Active Directory Tools, which were easily installed, but every semi annual update has done that so far anyway.

 

[Jackonearth]

Maybe true but the last Creators Update Windows released is cause certain SSD's to not boot properly, and causing issues with Chrome, although I think that's been patched, for example

I bet Microsoft broke Chrome on purpose.

 

[navychop]

“DOS ain’t done till Lotus won’t run.”

 

[Brussam]

I hear all these horror stories about Windows 10 and the updates and that is all I do, hear. I support three PCs locally and 6 in a remote location, a variety of types, three with SSDs ,all on Windows 10, half on Windows Creator leading release, and we apply all updates as they are released, automatically. No issues.

And we use Chrome on all the PCs for Remote Terminal support and again no issues.

So I only hear of problems, I do not encounter them.

 

[HipKat]

I hear all these horror stories about Windows 10 and the updates and that is all I do, hear. I support three PCs locally and 6 in a remote location, a variety of types, three with SSDs ,all on Windows 10, half on Windows Creator leading release, and we apply all updates as they are released, automatically. No issues.

And we use Chrome on all the PCs for Remote Terminal support and again no issues.

So I only hear of problems, I do not encounter them.

I used to say that about Hoppers....until I encountered them

 

[comfortably_numb]

I hear all these horror stories about Windows 10 and the updates and that is all I do, hear. I support three PCs locally and 6 in a remote location, a variety of types, three with SSDs ,all on Windows 10, half on Windows Creator leading release, and we apply all updates as they are released, automatically. No issues.

And we use Chrome on all the PCs for Remote Terminal support and again no issues.

So I only hear of problems, I do not encounter them.

Just because you yourself haven't encountered problems that doesn't mean others haven't. I consider several 3 or 4 GB updates per week a problem, but that's just me.